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CCP... The Simple Solution to the NPC Corp Issue

Author
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#401 - 2013-01-30 19:31:59 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm just going to ignore the fluuf and answer the underlying question:

No, you cannot be left alone. EVE is an MMO. If you want to be left alone, go play a single player game.

What you and your kind really want is to have your cake and eat it to. Why do you think you should be able to do things that affect me (you DO spend isk in game, and that affects me) but not vice versa?

Truth is, I don't care why you think it. The answer is still no, you cannot be "left alone" in this game till YOU choose to stop interacting with the game.

period.



So, what you seem to be saying is that you DO consider it your responsibility to make this game a miserable experience for as many other players as you can interact with?

I think I'm going to kick myself out of my corporation and stay in an NPC until I finally get sick enough of people like you to make me actually quit.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#402 - 2013-01-30 19:37:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


They know they have an advantage. people with advantages rarely give them up for the greater good.

This is why we need to make sure our CSM people we vote for know about these issue and push them.

I'm honestly not that worried about making sure CCP knows, I believe they do know.

I'm more concerned with the way they'll go about fixing things.

I don't want arbitrary restrictions based on how an individual plays, that's just not a game that says "come play me!".
I'm worried that with some of the things they've said about things being, esentially, to big to take on, that we'll just get arbitrary restrictions.

Like moving all T2 production to .7 and lower stations. That would definately have an impact and be a big improvement, but it'll also have the result of preventing people from being able to do T2 preduction. Especially with the current PoS system, that I suspect isn't going to change anytime soon.

I'd prefer tools that would allow for more dynamic gameplay, and the ability of players to take matters into their own hands; which is kind of the point of my whole "high sec needs station control" campaign I've been on.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#403 - 2013-01-30 19:40:30 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:


So, what you seem to be saying is that you DO consider it your responsibility to make this game a miserable experience for as many other players as you can interact with?


Nope, i don't usually do bad stuff to other people, i mostly PVE. BUT unlike you, I understand that I am a PVE player in a PVP-centered game, so i don't complain when people try to grief me, trick me, or whatever. I fight back or run....usually run....

Quote:

I think I'm going to kick myself out of my corporation and stay in an NPC until I finally get sick enough of people like you to make me actually quit.
\

To each his own, but i will tell you as I've told others: I am just the messenger of Truth. I am, not your problem , you and your inability to take responsibility for your choices (in this case, your choice to play a game made by Icelandic psychos for psychos everywhere) is your problem.

I ask again, have you ever analyzed your decision to play EVE Online?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#404 - 2013-01-30 19:41:26 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

They really need to allow corps to tax all revenue streams in this game...

Refining/Reprocessing, Trade, Missions Rewards, etc....

And then all NPC corps should have fairly un-competitive Tax Rates on all of these revenue streams.... You should ALWAYS be at a disadvantage when residing in a war-dec immune Corp... and that disadvantage should come in the form of taxed revenue streams. That would encourage people to move out of NPC corps... but it won't eliminate it...

I would potentially support the creation of Pacifist Corps -- (Wardeccable Player Corps... with limitations, but also some hurdles to anyone that Wardecs them).

In the end though... there is a fundemental issue here:

Player A doesn't want to engage in Ship-to-Ship Combat....
Player B wants to engage in Ship-to-Ship Combat...

Wardec's allow Player B to engage Player A... which is necessary for the game... However, there is little-to-no incentive for Player A to fight... You can't force him to undock, you can't force him to fight, and in the end, Wardecs often (not always) result in Player A simply not playing and Player B getting no kills... This is fundamentally flawed...

So, how do you encourage a player to Defend themselves... to fight? The truth is, allies are supposed to solve this.. but they haven't yet...

--- I think the "optimal" solution is a player solution... (kinda like dec-shield). Have some group declare a common mining system (like osmon), or a common missioning system (like Dodixie) as their protectorate... Anyone that want's to mine/mission in their system can... and if some "griefer corp" wardecs a corporation operating in their zone of control they'll willing allie up with the carebear to help defend them... That's the optimal solution, and I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet... (You'd think some branch of CVA would do this in the busy Amarr areas)...

In the end, players just need to organize, to group up... and players that hide in NPC corps actually HINDER this process, because they provide an easy-alternative to "stay safe" rather than encourage people to man up!

Taxing for the sake of encouraging didn't work. They tried, it failed.

The idea is not to create more one man corps, which is all taxing does. It's to get you playing in corporations WITH other people in them.

If a station has a high tax for NPC corp palyers, it should be entirely because the players running the station decided it should be that way.

Corporations that set low taxes would be points of contention.
If NPC corp members are arbitrarily taxed higher, then the "point" of setting taxes becomes somewhat shallow for the corporation setting them.


I do agree... creating 1-man corps is less than ideal.... The only way you get away from NPC corps and 1-man corps is to create group activities that encourage people to work together...

One of the reasons I encourage Highsec Incursions to pay well (i.e. better than LvL 4 Missions) is they encourage people to "group up". The more people group up, the more opportunities we get in game... Unfortunately, there aren't many newbishly-accessible content that encourages "grouping up"....
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#405 - 2013-01-30 19:42:03 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm just going to ignore the fluuf and answer the underlying question:

No, you cannot be left alone. EVE is an MMO. If you want to be left alone, go play a single player game.

What you and your kind really want is to have your cake and eat it to. Why do you think you should be able to do things that affect me (you DO spend isk in game, and that affects me) but not vice versa?

Truth is, I don't care why you think it. The answer is still no, you cannot be "left alone" in this game till YOU choose to stop interacting with the game.

period.



So, what you seem to be saying is that you DO consider it your responsibility to make this game a miserable experience for as many other players as you can interact with?

I think I'm going to kick myself out of my corporation and stay in an NPC until I finally get sick enough of people like you to make me actually quit.

We get it.

You're very clever and original. The first EVE-O poster to ever create an "NPC" alt to troll the forums with.
Don't you have an electrical socket you could be licking right now? Or have you not figured out how to get the plastic safety plugs out yet?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#406 - 2013-01-30 19:42:55 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
so with just three accounts trained up for industrials, cycled every 24 hrs, a player is immune. you can meet the prereqs for a freighter pilot in under 30 days without skill remaps or implants. if they get permadecced by a corp with deep pockets then they can reroll. meanwhile everyone else is getting wardecced so business is very good for mr metahauler.

consequences to bad ideas.

hm 3 accounts to pay for regular access to one freighter
yeah sounds like mr metahauler never heard of opportunity cost, sounds like he never got past the "if i mine the ore itself its free' phase of eve business
or bat country


that's not the point, the point is it's utterly feasible to game the war mechanic through alts in a way that makes the existence of wars reward this behaviour and punish everyone else.

it's as fundamentally broken as bounties because players aren't characters.

forums.  serious business.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#407 - 2013-01-30 19:44:50 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


that's not the point, the point is it's utterly feasible to game the war mechanic through alts in a way that makes the existence of wars reward this behaviour and punish everyone else.

it's as fundamentally broken as bounties because players aren't characters.

This is why I don't think nerfs and buffs are going to work for this issue. I think it needs to be solved through gameplay tools.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#408 - 2013-01-30 19:55:32 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why I don't think nerfs and buffs are going to work for this issue. I think it needs to be solved through gameplay tools.


personally I think it only really works when you have a structure or something else tangible if characters don't mean ****.

maybe CONCORD should demand mandatory plates issued by the Department of Internet Spaceships for highsec travel.

forums.  serious business.

Gathrn Manathey
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#409 - 2013-01-30 20:00:35 UTC
So after reading through a lot of this (I didn't read through it all, I admit it...) it seems to be a lot of people who are a lot farther in the game than I am pointing fingers at issues that really have nothing to do with me, or where I am at in the game. I consider myself a newbie, learning and having fun with the game, but most of the comments don't address anything having to do with anything remotely concerning me at this point.

Where is the incentive to join a non-NPC group? I hear about the griefers, the scammers and such, so why would I want to? In a NPC group, I can solo to my hearts content until I am ready to group something. The game itself is a sandbox, and I have not seen any reason yet to hurry out of my NPC controlled corp. the game does not steer me in a non NPC direction, what I pay does not really matter as it is a game and I am getting along fine right now (as far as I know... What am I going to compare it against? Rais the tax and I will honestly care why?)

The business about using them to hide from war decs is so far above where I am at... I don't worry about war decs, I look out for griefers. Using Alts and such to hide... It seems to me those are more of a problem than the NPC corps.

Whatever the case, most of the arguments I have seen either way are ones that pertain to people I would consider veterans of the game, and really have not addressed newbies/ reasons to transcend being a newbie.

My 2 cents.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#410 - 2013-01-30 20:00:51 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why I don't think nerfs and buffs are going to work for this issue. I think it needs to be solved through gameplay tools.


personally I think it only really works when you have a structure or something else tangible if characters don't mean ****.

maybe CONCORD should demand mandatory plates issued by the Department of Internet Spaceships for highsec travel.

And this is EXAXCTLY why I keep saying that high sec, player run corps, should be able to fight over control of the stations in all .7 to .5 systems.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#411 - 2013-01-30 20:16:24 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
And this is EXAXCTLY why I keep saying that high sec, player run corps, should be able to fight over control of the stations in all .7 to .5 systems.


sort of a sov-lite or fw thing? Yes that could be more satisfying and encourage more players to be involved or at least the corps will stop whining about us stealing their asteroids if they take their refine cut and the mission taxes.

And still leave highsec a pleasant little haven for us spacebums.

forums.  serious business.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#412 - 2013-01-30 20:19:20 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
And this is EXAXCTLY why I keep saying that high sec, player run corps, should be able to fight over control of the stations in all .7 to .5 systems.


sort of a sov-lite or fw thing? Yes that could be more satisfying and encourage more players to be involved or at least the corps will stop whining about us stealing their asteroids if they take their refine cut and the mission taxes.

And still leave highsec a pleasant little haven for us spacebums.

Exactly.

It could potentially help with a lot of "issues" in EVE. Including mine as a null industrialist, and it wouldn't involve restricting people from being able to do anything, or "force" them to join a player corp or play where they don't want to.

The only people that would be directly effected are the people who play in player run corps and already deal with wardecs.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#413 - 2013-01-30 20:21:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I ask again, have you ever analyzed your decision to play EVE Online?


Many times. Believe me. No. It isn't a game for me. Believe it or not, I'm pretty sure one of my characters was the one that made that statement about a'full immersion space exploration simulation.'

Doesn't matter. They haven't forced me out yet, which doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#414 - 2013-01-30 20:23:33 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

We get it.

You're very clever and original. The first EVE-O poster to ever create an "NPC" alt to troll the forums with.
Don't you have an electrical socket you could be licking right now? Or have you not figured out how to get the plastic safety plugs out yet?


You still haven't noticed that my posting alt isn't in an NPC corp?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#415 - 2013-01-30 20:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

We get it.

You're very clever and original. The first EVE-O poster to ever create an "NPC" alt to troll the forums with.
Don't you have an electrical socket you could be licking right now? Or have you not figured out how to get the plastic safety plugs out yet?


You still haven't noticed that my posting alt isn't in an NPC corp?

No wai! not a 10 man corp.


Edit: You have a lot of alts guy.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#416 - 2013-01-30 20:45:55 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
And this is EXAXCTLY why I keep saying that high sec, player run corps, should be able to fight over control of the stations in all .7 to .5 systems.


sort of a sov-lite or fw thing? Yes that could be more satisfying and encourage more players to be involved or at least the corps will stop whining about us stealing their asteroids if they take their refine cut and the mission taxes.

And still leave highsec a pleasant little haven for us spacebums.

Exactly.

It could potentially help with a lot of "issues" in EVE. Including mine as a null industrialist, and it wouldn't involve restricting people from being able to do anything, or "force" them to join a player corp or play where they don't want to.

The only people that would be directly effected are the people who play in player run corps and already deal with wardecs.


How to deal with neutral alts though...

I suppose what you could do is declare the system contested and CONCORD will no longer intervene until the war is over, so anyone in system is a legitimate target.

forums.  serious business.

Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#417 - 2013-01-30 20:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Fey Ivory
Heaty debate ;P

First off all, the people in NPC like me, pay to play this game, and should have full access to its content, we are not trials...

Then we can debate what PvP is, for me that isent just using ships vs ships, in Eve it should also involve layers where i as a person could punish other people with economic sanctions, for example i as a industrialist that focus on economics and have rather poor combat ships and combat skills, so lets asume You attack my exhummer, so i decide to place 50mil... i think thats the cost of a war deck... and you would get 100% increase in cost, everything you did would get twice as costly, everything you try to sell, would yield you half the money ? ... fair ?... well in a modern sociaty economics is what fuels the war machine, and it should be a tool industrialist could fight back with...

High sec is called high security for a reason, and the wardec cost is a JOKE, that undoes the entire point with having it highsec, problem is that with how it is now, i agree with Nat, that it creates a unfair advantage to those inside a NPC corp vs those in a player corp, that can be wardecced... so keep NPCs tax to concord, and give all player corps the option to pay a equal tax to concord at the start of eaxh month... that make it fair for all... no unfair and same for all !

Then as for nerfing NPC corps, personally i again stress i pay to play this game, and should have access to ALL its content, but IF there be need to promote the player corps, i would limit it to small scale, sort of a base production, base research, etc... you could push this alittle bit more with standings... and a mini POS... but to access the big number of production and research slots, you would need a POS accesable from a player corp...

And a slight reminder, i am in CAS, it have 500-1500 people active depending on day, that is ONE off twelve start corps, not to mention the twelve holding corps that exist... you crunsh the numbers of players, and you soon see that we are significant % of Eve, and most important of all, its what brings Eve its new blood, be very carefull what changes you cry for... in any case be great !
Cassius Marcellus
BRG Corp
#418 - 2013-01-30 21:00:23 UTC
Joelleaveek wrote:
What is the issue again?


{This group of players} isn't playing EVE like I want them to play it. {This idea} is a way to force them to do what I want.

Diablo Ex
Nocturne Holdings
#419 - 2013-01-30 21:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Diablo Ex
Gathrn Manathey wrote:
So after reading through a lot of this (I didn't read through it all, I admit it...) it seems to be a lot of people who are a lot farther in the game than I am pointing fingers at issues that really have nothing to do with me, or where I am at in the game. I consider myself a newbie, learning and having fun with the game, but most of the comments don't address anything having to do with anything remotely concerning me at this point.

Where is the incentive to join a non-NPC group? I hear about the griefers, the scammers and such, so why would I want to? In a NPC group, I can solo to my hearts content until I am ready to group something. The game itself is a sandbox, and I have not seen any reason yet to hurry out of my NPC controlled corp. the game does not steer me in a non NPC direction, what I pay does not really matter as it is a game and I am getting along fine right now (as far as I know... What am I going to compare it against? Rais the tax and I will honestly care why?)

The business about using them to hide from war decs is so far above where I am at... I don't worry about war decs, I look out for griefers. Using Alts and such to hide... It seems to me those are more of a problem than the NPC corps.

Whatever the case, most of the arguments I have seen either way are ones that pertain to people I would consider veterans of the game, and really have not addressed newbies/ reasons to transcend being a newbie.

My 2 cents.


And to be quite honest.... I don't have an issue with you, or players at your level being in NPC Corps. They serve that purpose just fine. Your not the kind of player that is exploiting the Safety of NPC Corps to multi-box fleets of exhumers, run mission & mining Bots, run high levels of T2 production or monopolize the NPC Manufacturing lines (I'll bet you at one point would like to have a line or two available for you to use).

Since you can't "legislate morality" or force players to change on their own, I am left with campaigning for changes in the game mechanics. I would like to either see restrictions in ship types and available skill usage, or be given some other ways to "encourage" these people to do something else that doesn't involve CONCORD. I'm not looking to Grief players but I would appreciate a more level playing field.

Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem"

Gathrn Manathey
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#420 - 2013-01-30 21:51:23 UTC
I would love to see a reason to do anything. Right now I have no reason to get out of the NPC corp, want a bigger ship or... I log on, take some missions and shoot raiders.
The only reason I do this is because it seems like that is what there is to do. Nothing in the game makes me want to reach for my own corp, lets me know how great "x" is or touts the "end game" of...

Its a sandbox. That is the good and the bad of it. Even if it gets changed, do you think that players will not exploit the change to their advantage?