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CCP, I think today's events should be clear about this
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philip the 4th
Local Spatial Phenomena
#61 - 2013-01-28 14:26:32 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Ok here is a serious post.

I think that population caps for systems are a cop out.
I strongly feel that TiDi Should NOT be needed when a node is reinforced "properly".
I KNOW the technology exists, I also know it is super expensive.





My biggest problem is that even when a node is reinforced there is still horrible TiDi and lag. CCP has loads of money and they have server that make the servers of other MMOs look like potato lights. The problem still remains that for whatever reason or reasons CCP is not investing the money in better infrastructure.

Maybe I just don't have all the super secret info but this is how I and many other players see it.



Uhm... CCP has loads of money?
How exactly do you figure that?
And if they have loads of money, why did they fire a ton of devs after the WIS fiasco? Because they could afford to keep them on?

As far as I can tell, the subscription price has not been changed since 2003, yet people are quite busy screaming about getting massive and extremely expensive tech upgrades for the servers just because the entire 0.0 population(and others) decided to jump into the same system to shoot each other...EVEN when you knew FULL WELL what would happen.

I have limited knowledge about the tech being used(like almost everyone on this thread), but as far as I can tell, the CCP servers are freeking ground breaking when it comes to handling numbers of players on a single node, so you guys may want to try using your heads when "asking"(lol) for ever more power for your little battles.
Dave Stark
#62 - 2013-01-28 14:31:26 UTC
philip the 4th wrote:
EVEN when you knew FULL WELL what would happen.


"wait guys, don't shoot the enemies because it'll crash the server"
"uh, then why are we even bothering to log in if we're not going to play the game?"
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-01-28 14:41:49 UTC
Personally I think they should more try to encourage multi-prong attacks if their servers can't handle clumps relatively lag free... you know, so if one group overloads an area, the attacking force can immediately strike elsewhere. Working out the details might be a little tough though.
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#64 - 2013-01-28 15:18:38 UTC
True Sight wrote:
Ohishi wrote:
COD pauses the game while it migrates hosts, after a certain point of TiDi maybe EVE should do the same thing.


Does COD have 2000 players in the same localised area? :) are players target locks, vectors, speed, active bullets maintained during the transition and preserved when the migration is done? :)



You keep saying 'vector' like it means something, I think you mean the world position of assets

I have a feeling people at CCP are laughing at this thread at all the stupid assumptions.

Until CCP give a full thorough outline of their infrastructure, there isnt really much anyone can comment on, and really "FIX IT!!" is the best thing we can say.

I mean for all we know, the lag could have been created because someone was downloading and seeding too much Icelandic porn

Focus on things IN GAME not on the server hardware that processes it
Whitehound
#65 - 2013-01-28 15:43:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
No bombs in lowsec.

Thanks. I have completely forgotten about that.

Ganked freighter pilots of high-sec will now feel avenged, but I feel bad for Goons and how others fell over them like vultures at the first chance. Roll

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#66 - 2013-01-28 17:17:01 UTC
Sairi Katelin wrote:
...Dude. With THAT MUCH STUFF in the system slapping each other around, I think CCP's coders are freaking awesomesauce to have kept the thing running as well as they did.

CCP server guys. You. Rule. Wish it'd have worked better, maybe someday we'll have the computing power available to have ludicrous spontaneous gigawars without headaches.

QFT

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Ginger Barbarella
#67 - 2013-01-28 17:23:23 UTC
I agree with OP: hanging your hat on a technology that has clear, inherent flaws is really short-sighted.

I never understood the point of massive multi-player battles when it had to be scheduled, approved of, and the game company had to do something special just so people could experience a worst-than-normal battle experience. Shoot-out at the OK Corral... under water with heavy scuba gear.

Time dilation? Uh, OK.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-01-28 17:37:45 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I agree with OP: hanging your hat on a technology that has clear, inherent flaws is really short-sighted.

I never understood the point of massive multi-player battles when it had to be scheduled, approved of, and the game company had to do something special just so people could experience a worst-than-normal battle experience. Shoot-out at the OK Corral... under water with heavy scuba gear.

Time dilation? Uh, OK.

Gotta keep in mind that no game other than EVE has been able to handle even 200 in a small area, much less 2,000. Not even WoW. It really shows the dedication of EVE players to even be able to reach those obnoxious numbers. Still, I can't imagine there isn't something they can do to improve, just a matter of what. I'm not enough of an experienced programmer to make that call yet though unfortunately.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#69 - 2013-01-28 18:49:46 UTC
Iv'e got a question.
Can nodes share power?

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#70 - 2013-01-28 22:22:47 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced. With the way virtualisation is right now you can already have systems automatically migrate from host to host, effectively shifting it to a system with more processing power available. You can have dynamic ranges of resource allocation (memory I know you can, CPU I'm not 100% sure about but I can ask our hosting team).

It would of course depend on how they have things structured. If they're transferring only the game data across; rather than a slew of virtual servers then yes; there should be a freeze / etc. unless there is an arbiter system that can coalesce the two. But if they are simply migrating virtual servers (Even a volume of them) then it should be in the realms of feasibility with the way things are right now.


Again, there is a huge, significant important difference between web servers, business servers, file servers etc and MMORPG servers, the types of calculations, reaction times, setups etc are entirely different. look at it this way.

I'm pretty certain Amazon's hardware is 100 times the size as EVE's TQ Cluster, for that reason it also probably costs more. However you couldn't make the Amazon web servers run eve, not the way eve runs.

live action gaming stuff with thousands of players is a hugely complex thing by itself, let alone seamlessly trying to transition it live from one entire system to another.

And there is a lot more than game data, shifting your character, skills, etc is all super-simple stuff, it's what happens very quickly and easily when you jump from one system to another. But people in this thread are asking them to snapshot a live battle including 2500 players, with millions of variables, where every single little thing has to be preservered, including the current heat of my mid-slits, the fact my warp scrambler is overheated, is 20% through its cycle, with a range of XXX based on the wing commander in-system, that I have you locked, that you are in my range and that I am currently preventing you from warping out.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#71 - 2013-01-28 22:27:54 UTC
Kiasta wrote:
I don't care what the problem was, 10% TiDi was unacceptable. You can argue all you want, you can come up with excuses all you want but that fight was completely ridiculous. Hell it took a good 3 minutes just to pod someone and I was within 3km and in a rifter; there was no reason for me to have taken 3 minutes just to pod someone. Sure random 3000+ battles rarely if ever occur, but what's the point and where is the fun in doing so when it's nearly impossible to begin with? This game has just shown that it can't handle massive battles randomly. I don't see a point in having the ability for massive warfare when their servers can't even handle it.

Again 10% TiDi is unacceptable, no matter what. I don't care if Jita has it's own node, I don't care about the excuses. We pay for a game to have fun. When there is finally a massive war, randomly, everything goes to ****. We are paying customers and this whole fight was completely annoying and not even remotely fun. It needs to be addressed and fixed.


You're basically acting like an entitled little whining B****. You PAY to have a membership to a Gym, that Gym membership does not mean that if you don't have the perfect body in 6 months you can whine and complain its unacceptable and I PAY FOR THIS.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#72 - 2013-01-28 22:35:19 UTC
Kalle Demos wrote:
You keep saying 'vector' like it means something, I think you mean the world position of assets

I have a feeling people at CCP are laughing at this thread at all the stupid assumptions.

Until CCP give a full thorough outline of their infrastructure, there isnt really much anyone can comment on, and really "FIX IT!!" is the best thing we can say.

I mean for all we know, the lag could have been created because someone was downloading and seeding too much Icelandic ****

Focus on things IN GAME not on the server hardware that processes it


It's about more than the position, position isn't too difficult, but a migration like this has to take into account your ships direction, speed what it's trying to do (did you tell it to orbit something in the opposite direction 1 second ago and its about to do a 180?).

There are also full outlines of their infrastructure, go read the various developer blogs :)
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2013-01-28 23:23:48 UTC
My thought on the next step is the brain in a box concept. I would love to see that done but I've read it is just I side project of a dev.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#74 - 2013-01-29 00:22:44 UTC
They should probably just put a 90% TiDi across the entire galaxy as a prophylatic measure. Most peoples wouldn't even know the difference and could prevent this stuff from happening. Eve is getting bigger and if this continues then servers are going to be maxed more often than in the past.

yk
Commander Spurty
#75 - 2013-01-29 00:46:27 UTC
Cat Troll wrote:


P.S:
The player count was the same as what you see daily in Jita, so I don't think it would be that much computing power.


Player count in local != undocked moving ships firing with drones out

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-01-29 01:43:24 UTC
True Sight wrote:
Kiasta wrote:
I don't care what the problem was, 10% TiDi was unacceptable. You can argue all you want, you can come up with excuses all you want but that fight was completely ridiculous. Hell it took a good 3 minutes just to pod someone and I was within 3km and in a rifter; there was no reason for me to have taken 3 minutes just to pod someone. Sure random 3000+ battles rarely if ever occur, but what's the point and where is the fun in doing so when it's nearly impossible to begin with? This game has just shown that it can't handle massive battles randomly. I don't see a point in having the ability for massive warfare when their servers can't even handle it.

Again 10% TiDi is unacceptable, no matter what. I don't care if Jita has it's own node, I don't care about the excuses. We pay for a game to have fun. When there is finally a massive war, randomly, everything goes to ****. We are paying customers and this whole fight was completely annoying and not even remotely fun. It needs to be addressed and fixed.


You're basically acting like an entitled little whining B****. You PAY to have a membership to a Gym, that Gym membership does not mean that if you don't have the perfect body in 6 months you can whine and complain its unacceptable and I PAY FOR THIS.


Lets not get into logical fallacies here... there are a lot of comparisons that could be made in terms of say, faulty products. People have a right to complain about those, right? And really you could go on and on with that kind of argument all day into infinity. Its classified as a logical fallacy for a reason. Don't use them.

Either way, yeah, it is a ***** to have a game slow down to a crawl. The alternative though is crashing. Its a ridiculous situation, but quite literally no one currently has a working solution up and going right now. NOBODY. And that's the issue. EVE pulls off a lot of firsts in this department that would make other MMOs cry. Its a pain in the rear, but gotta take it for what it is. You're putting a strain on the game that no other MMO has ever been known to handle. TENFOLD what any other MMO has been known to handle. While they should VERY MUCH work on solutions to the issue, its something of a work in progress. I mean, I really doubt CCP really foresaw this kind of scale when they started the game and they've been stuck between a rock and a hard place ever since.
MiliasColds
Strategic Incompetence
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#77 - 2013-01-29 15:57:19 UTC
in terms of live reinforcing a node that is possible, what has to happen is something similar to VMotion from VMware

node 1 gets to a point where it is approaching overload, it is identified as needing reinforcing, as such step 1 should be cleaning the hardware of other systems since this is relatively inexpensive, you do this by replicating the memory from one machine to another, to the point where they both have a copy of the sim running, then you can seamlessly hand off the connection to the new node. for better information on how to do this look into specifications for GSM wireless it's the same problem as with seamless handoff between cellular towers.
this would leave the original system on a dedicated node, but even that may not be enough, so at some point it may be required to migrate to a altogether new node with more HW available. the processs would be the same replicate the memory, replicate the sim then handoff connections.

this is dependant on a couple large things however and that is the nodes can talk to each other faster than the node is generating data, EG it can send all the information in ram + changes (since sim is ongoing) faster than it is making changes. thus allowing the second node to catch up.

and second that there is a front end server that can start reassigning packet destinations to the new node as it becomes the primary. if all goes well the transition is in fact invisible to the client. :)
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2013-01-29 16:53:30 UTC
Cat Troll wrote:
[quote=Sairi Katelin].
P.S:
The player count was the same as what you see daily in Jita, so I don't think it would be that much computing power.


You can't compare 2800 alts docked up doing market orders and posting scams in local to 2800 ships undocked, maneuvering, drones/fighters out, modules active, missiles in flight, violently trading ammunition.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-01-29 17:06:18 UTC
As I understand it, they are already doing as much reinforcing as they can.

Each solar system is a virtual machine. Multiple VMs share a server. As one server approaches max resources, the VMs start being moved off that server to less heavily used servers. When there is just one VM left on the server, that VM will try to move to a beefier server. Once the VM is on the beefiest server by itself, there isn't much more than can be done.

You can't have a VM run across multiple physical servers. Even if you could, what do you do when multiple VMs are hitting max usage because an extra 10K people got tweets telling them to log in because there is a super cap fight underway.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#80 - 2013-01-29 17:13:58 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
As I understand it, they are already doing as much reinforcing as they can.

Each solar system is a virtual machine. Multiple VMs share a server. As one server approaches max resources, the VMs start being moved off that server to less heavily used servers. When there is just one VM left on the server, that VM will try to move to a beefier server. Once the VM is on the beefiest server by itself, there isn't much more than can be done.

You can't have a VM run across multiple physical servers. Even if you could, what do you do when multiple VMs are hitting max usage because an extra 10K people got tweets telling them to log in because there is a super cap fight underway.



The problem is, moving systems disconnects everyone connected to that system (see the recent dev blog). They're working on it, but not yet.

There's other stuff being worked on by Team Gridlock, but no results yet.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter