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CCP, I think today's events should be clear about this

Author
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
Sugar. Affiliates
#1 - 2013-01-27 17:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Troll
Nodes need to auto-reinforce themselves when they are overloaded!
Might as well drop the single shard if after TEN YEARS you can't have a suprise battle without everything going to hell.
And Dust barely worked, so that too.
I mean I don't know how hard it would be to do so, but it WILL be worth it in the future.
P.S
Time dialtion should be an emergency button, not the fix it all cure.

If removing nodes from one system and adding them to another automaticly is impossible maybe have emergency nodes that aren't applied on anything but when a node is overloaded they kick in?

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."

Sairi Katelin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-01-27 17:41:22 UTC
...Dude. With THAT MUCH STUFF in the system slapping each other around, I think CCP's coders are freaking awesomesauce to have kept the thing running as well as they did.

CCP server guys. You. Rule. Wish it'd have worked better, maybe someday we'll have the computing power available to have ludicrous spontaneous gigawars without headaches.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
Sugar. Affiliates
#3 - 2013-01-27 17:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Troll
Sairi Katelin wrote:
...Dude. With THAT MUCH STUFF in the system slapping each other around, I think CCP's coders are freaking awesomesauce to have kept the thing running as well as they did.

CCP server guys. You. Rule. Wish it'd have worked better, maybe someday we'll have the computing power available to have ludicrous spontaneous gigawars without headaches.

I'm not saying they didn't do a good job with the software and hardware.
A few years ago a battle half the size would crash EVE as a whole.
But until they can reinforce nodes automaticly one of the biggest things pushed in the advertisment can barely happen.

Dominiontrailerlolnope

P.S:
The player count was the same as what you see daily in Jita, so I don't think it would be that much computing power.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#4 - 2013-01-27 17:46:48 UTC
It is a law of nature that no matter how much CCP reinforces a node, people will just pile up on it until it croaks.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
Sugar. Affiliates
#5 - 2013-01-27 17:47:58 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
It is a law of nature that no matter how much CCP reinforces a node, people will just pile up on it until it croaks.

Yes, yes it is, but there are things CCP can do to ease the pain of the poor node.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."

Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#6 - 2013-01-27 17:48:21 UTC
FYI serwer power consumption 75kw, so like small power plant can delivery, that lot of money every year, want more nodes ? maybe with more subscribers CCP can add next nodes, GL to them!

EvE isn't game, its style of living.

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#7 - 2013-01-27 17:48:59 UTC
You are asking for something with a total lack of understanding of how these things work.

A reinforced node is basically a dedicated/larger node than usual, as soon as eve boots up after a maintenance systems start being dynamically loaded across the nodes (with special exceptions like Jita).

The loading screen you get when jumping from one system to another is often (but not always) a node transition too.

Once a node is already active, there's a piece of hardware handling all the stuff going on in that system, who is flying around where, who has who locked, missiles in flight, turrent mega-math, jamming, drones, reporting the locations of all this stuff to every other single player loaded on those same grids.

It's simply not feasible for a live seamless transition from one piece of hardware to another, you can do this with an Exchange or web-server quite easily, because the number of transactions and the response times are insignificant in comparison to an online game, where the millisecond response times are vital.

the only way to 'live reinforce' a node would be to basically either freeze the entire system (prevent people joining/leaving the system, stop all weapons fire, ship movement, velocity, active modules, active grids, grid sizes, other objects, all items in space etc etc etc), then transfer all that data over to one of the dedicated 'reinforced' nodes, then hit the pause button again whilst everyone continues.

The only other possibility would involve booting every single player out of the system (so... if the whole reason the fight started was due to a tackled super-fleet, said super fleet are now offline and safe and just won't log back in).

Time Dilation is the cure, its the only possibility in such spontaneous systems as your subscription and mine simply isn't enough for every single system in eve to be running on jita-level hardware for that one-percent chance that one day in the next few years it might suddenly host a huge spontaneous fleet battle.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#8 - 2013-01-27 17:50:08 UTC
Cat Troll wrote:
Sairi Katelin wrote:
...Dude. With THAT MUCH STUFF in the system slapping each other around, I think CCP's coders are freaking awesomesauce to have kept the thing running as well as they did.

CCP server guys. You. Rule. Wish it'd have worked better, maybe someday we'll have the computing power available to have ludicrous spontaneous gigawars without headaches.

I'm not saying they didn't do a good job with the software and hardware.
A few years ago a battle half the size would crash EVE as a whole.
But until they can reinforce nodes automaticly one of the biggest things pushed in the advertisment can barely happen.

Dominiontrailerlolnope

P.S:
The player count was the same as what you see daily in Jita, so I don't think it would be that much computing power.


I believe Jita has it's own node, even then it still enters TiDi occasionally.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
Sugar. Affiliates
#9 - 2013-01-27 17:53:18 UTC
True Sight wrote:
You are asking for something with a total lack of understanding of how these things work.

A reinforced node is basically a dedicated/larger node than usual, as soon as eve boots up after a maintenance systems start being dynamically loaded across the nodes (with special exceptions like Jita).

The loading screen you get when jumping from one system to another is often (but not always) a node transition too.

Once a node is already active, there's a piece of hardware handling all the stuff going on in that system, who is flying around where, who has who locked, missiles in flight, turrent mega-math, jamming, drones, reporting the locations of all this stuff to every other single player loaded on those same grids.

It's simply not feasible for a live seamless transition from one piece of hardware to another, you can do this with an Exchange or web-server quite easily, because the number of transactions and the response times are insignificant in comparison to an online game, where the millisecond response times are vital.

the only way to 'live reinforce' a node would be to basically either freeze the entire system (prevent people joining/leaving the system, stop all weapons fire, ship movement, velocity, active modules, active grids, grid sizes, other objects, all items in space etc etc etc), then transfer all that data over to one of the dedicated 'reinforced' nodes, then hit the pause button again whilst everyone continues.

The only other possibility would involve booting every single player out of the system (so... if the whole reason the fight started was due to a tackled super-fleet, said super fleet are now offline and safe and just won't log back in).

Time Dilation is the cure, its the only possibility in such spontaneous systems as your subscription and mine simply isn't enough for every single system in eve to be running on jita-level hardware for that one-percent chance that one day in the next few years it might suddenly host a huge spontaneous fleet battle.

I'm not asking every node to work at Jita level.
I'm asking for nodes to add up and help the node that is being overloaded.
But you explained why it isn't possible, so thanks for that.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#10 - 2013-01-27 17:57:55 UTC
True Sight wrote:
the only way to 'live reinforce' a node would be to basically either freeze the entire system (prevent people joining/leaving the system, stop all weapons fire, ship movement, velocity, active modules, active grids, grid sizes, other objects, all items in space etc etc etc), then transfer all that data over to one of the dedicated 'reinforced' nodes, then hit the pause button again whilst everyone continues.
A few minutes of time-out while a system is being moved to a dedicated node, would be much preferable than hours and hours of 10% TiDi.

If CCP could do this, I think they would have. Somehow I doubt that it's possible thou, in a game where even changing characters, requires you to reboot the client.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#11 - 2013-01-27 17:59:08 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
True Sight wrote:
the only way to 'live reinforce' a node would be to basically either freeze the entire system (prevent people joining/leaving the system, stop all weapons fire, ship movement, velocity, active modules, active grids, grid sizes, other objects, all items in space etc etc etc), then transfer all that data over to one of the dedicated 'reinforced' nodes, then hit the pause button again whilst everyone continues.
A few minutes of time-out while a system is being moved to a dedicated node, would be much preferable than hours and hours of 10% TiDi.

If CCP could do this, I think they would have. Somehow I doubt that it's possible thou, in a game where even changing characters, requires you to reboot the client.

Yeah then the titans would be offline. Sounds great for Boat.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#12 - 2013-01-27 18:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarvos Telesto
CCP may extra reinforce node when people let them know before battle, probably nobody predict this may happens in some low sec where few pirates and indy pilots visit it every day.

EvE isn't game, its style of living.

True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#13 - 2013-01-27 18:04:32 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
A few minutes of time-out while a system is being moved to a dedicated node, would be much preferable than hours and hours of 10% TiDi.

If CCP could do this, I think they would have. Somehow I doubt that it's possible thou, in a game where even changing characters, requires you to reboot the client.



I respond to this post with experience btw, I've been in fear of loosing my carrier pre-TD, with myself and a conga-line of over a 100caps sitting in a system we can't leave because of node-death, no idea if my ship will be alive, I can see it appears cloaked, my little remaining Isotopes used, this is far worse than TD.

This 'is' possible, but what you're talking about, or rather asking, is an entire re-write of a significant amount of code, perhaps the entire core engine because obviously as the programmers have been writing eve over the years, they've never coded towards the functionality of a pause button, let alone the services taking place to live-transfer mid-fight 2,000 players from one node to another 100% reliability
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#14 - 2013-01-27 18:09:34 UTC
Cat Troll wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
It is a law of nature that no matter how much CCP reinforces a node, people will just pile up on it until it croaks.

Yes, yes it is, but there are things CCP can do to ease the pain of the poor node.


yes, thats why added the option to inform them about big fights a-priori so they can move the system to the best server they have.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#15 - 2013-01-27 18:10:06 UTC
If the server can handle more people, more people will come, lets change 2.8k to 28k, dont you see how stupid it sounds, in a few years time people will actually be whining about how 4k people in a system is causing lag.

CCP dont seem to understand this pattern. Op are you really saying you want more people in fleet fights?
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
Sugar. Affiliates
#16 - 2013-01-27 18:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Troll
Kalle Demos wrote:
If the server can handle more people, more people will come, lets change 2.8k to 28k, dont you see how stupid it sounds, in a few years time people will actually be whining about how 4k people in a system is causing lag.

CCP dont seem to understand this pattern. Op are you really saying you want more people in fleet fights?

I'm saying that its better for the future of EVE.
Its constantly growing and one day node overloads might happen daily.
Its better to be ready for it now than crunch in code for hours everyday for months to get the game into working condition again.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."

Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#17 - 2013-01-27 18:32:17 UTC
There's only so many people that can fit on the battlefield before the battlefield is full, the rest have to wait :)


It's a well known fact that eve can never deliver multi-thousand ship battles smoothly, the amount of data been shifted about for these kind of events must be phenomenal, and short of upgrading everything in eve's hardware arsenal to counter an 'accidental' battle causing lag then there's not much that can be done.

I figure that EvE's hardware configuration is optimised for the majority of players, not a couple of thousand in a battle, which is why if it's a known battle that's going ahead you ask for a reinforced node to be set up.

Even with what must be the most powerful node in the game assigned to jita, I've been sat on the gate waiting to get in with traffic control was in effect, and there were 2,300 people in the system, so even the node that jita runs on struggles at times. Surely you can't expect that kind of hardware to be assigned to everywhere?

I'm sure that if it could be automated then it would have been, instead they introduced TiDi to lessen the effects of lag.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-01-27 18:51:50 UTC
A massive battle like that should involve weeks of buildup, not a spurt of the moment deal.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#19 - 2013-01-27 18:56:46 UTC
True Sight wrote:
You are asking for something with a total lack of understanding of how these things work.

A reinforced node is basically a dedicated/larger node than usual, as soon as eve boots up after a maintenance systems start being dynamically loaded across the nodes (with special exceptions like Jita).

The loading screen you get when jumping from one system to another is often (but not always) a node transition too.

Once a node is already active, there's a piece of hardware handling all the stuff going on in that system, who is flying around where, who has who locked, missiles in flight, turrent mega-math, jamming, drones, reporting the locations of all this stuff to every other single player loaded on those same grids.

It's simply not feasible for a live seamless transition from one piece of hardware to another, you can do this with an Exchange or web-server quite easily, because the number of transactions and the response times are insignificant in comparison to an online game, where the millisecond response times are vital.

the only way to 'live reinforce' a node would be to basically either freeze the entire system (prevent people joining/leaving the system, stop all weapons fire, ship movement, velocity, active modules, active grids, grid sizes, other objects, all items in space etc etc etc), then transfer all that data over to one of the dedicated 'reinforced' nodes, then hit the pause button again whilst everyone continues.

The only other possibility would involve booting every single player out of the system (so... if the whole reason the fight started was due to a tackled super-fleet, said super fleet are now offline and safe and just won't log back in).

Time Dilation is the cure, its the only possibility in such spontaneous systems as your subscription and mine simply isn't enough for every single system in eve to be running on jita-level hardware for that one-percent chance that one day in the next few years it might suddenly host a huge spontaneous fleet battle.


Is true, however didn't CCP say that with TiDi that was capable, i'm sure at fanfest they said they do have the capability to put the TiDi at 0% and basically pause the game so it can be transferred mid fight to a reinforced node without any losses, i'm not sure if that still isnt' ready to happen and is still being worked on or what.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-01-27 19:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
Sairi Katelin wrote:
...Dude. With THAT MUCH STUFF in the system slapping each other around, I think CCP's coders are freaking awesomesauce to have kept the thing running as well as they did.

CCP server guys. You. Rule. Wish it'd have worked better, maybe someday we'll have the computing power available to have ludicrous spontaneous gigawars without headaches.

I agree with this.

However, they have the 'super nodes' which are used when we can prepare for a known fight to happen. The issue is being able to prepare for this which is next to impossible in EVE.

If EVE's politics keep going the way they're going, expect to see more engagements like this.

I would love to understand why a node 'pause' (bump tidi to 100%) then node switch isn't possible. I don't understand the details behind the way things work right now, but if that much activity is on a node, there should be a way to capture all the ships on the node and image it to a new, higher powered supernode and contain the fallout so that we don't run into the soul crushing lag situations like we did last night.


edit: again, I don't know how the code in the server works or if this is even possible at all. But it seems like a solid plan to work towards.

edit2: another thing is the client. That much stuff on grid, brackets turned off... my computer wasn't happy at all. Oh dear it was rough.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

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