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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1921 - 2013-02-01 22:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Wivabel wrote:
These are in sisi stats with my skills so beware how eve calculates EHP differently then most popular fitting tools.

Brutix with neutrons and t2 800 mm plate gets 60000 EHP with dual web point microwarpdrive and about 780 DPS while going about 1000m/s with Armor honeycombing 5 and armor rigging 4 Meta 4 800mm plate gets you about 56000 EHP and a speed of roughly the same as the Ferox.

Ferox gets 60000 EHP with neutrons 1 large shield extender 2x invuln point microwarpdrive 725 dps and its speed is about 1038.

These stats make it seem like both ships are capable of fitting the biggest guns with class appropriate tank. Both ships can Downgrade guns and get better tanks be they bigger buffer tanks or Strong active tanks. Not to bad IMO. I am not sure how other battlecruisers fit into this comparison but these two are equal.

EDIT I just fit up an armor cane with a meta 4 1600 plate 425s microwarpdrive anc crurrent router and trimarks 581 dps and a 54000 ehp tank 0.o

WivCool

Ok... And now fit active armor brutix and active shield cyclone. And tell me. What of those ships have to downgrade their weapons and what ships have realy trouble in fiting? Then watch their stats. DPS, working range, tank. Dont forget that LASB dont need cap for use and hps more then MAAR...

I realy dont understand (and as i see many posters too) WHY caldari and gallent BC have 2 ships with same bonus (brut\myrm ferox\drake)?
CCP for the Holy Cat, make ferox\drake and brut\myrm another bonus instead of resist\rep amount! Brutix would be great with falloff bonus and drake shoudnt be so tanky.

EDIT:

About downgrade neutrons to ions or even elec.
Scramb range - 9km and web 10. While you "utlra close" ion and elec have 12km (ion) and 9 km(elec) optimal+falloff range with NULLS! You havnt slots for TC or TE, you are armor tanking, not shield :{
So. You takle enemy and enemy takle you (scram+web both). So you at 9-10km from him with ~50 m\s speed. Same for your enemy.
Your dps (for example 600 with voids) would be 20-50 at that range with nulls while you have ele or ions with nulls just for deliver some dps to your enemy.
This works fine only for large weapons (and "fine" means that you can deal some "good" (300-400) dps at 10 km. And ~0 at 15km). Know why? Downgraded blaster w\o TE and TC coz most gallen armor tank with less slots than amarr that have greatly range for "close" weapons P
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1922 - 2013-02-01 22:35:27 UTC
Yxilan wrote:
[quote=Bouh Revetoile]

Bottom line
1. Armor repping is still strictly inferior.
2. Reduced powergrid on many of the Gallente ships so they can't be fit like all the other races
3. The Brutix in particular could use a different bonus than armor rep. How about Microwarp Speed or Consuption bonus?


1. I agree, but I think it needs the ASB changing/nerfing rather than armour tanking being buffed beyond the AAR proposal

2. agree totally

3, Agree totally, but imo not the mwd consumption/cap bonus. That's a dreadful bonus on any ship, and makes no sense to the brutix at all.
Perihelion Olenard
#1923 - 2013-02-01 23:21:55 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
...

1. I agree, but I think it needs the ASB changing/nerfing rather than armour tanking being buffed beyond the AAR proposal

...

No, armor does need a boost after the damage increases over the past 3-4 years.
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1924 - 2013-02-01 23:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Ok. I just fit next BC (for all fits i had PG +3% imp, i have AWU 5, Eng 5, Elect 5, Elect Upg 5 and Eng Upg 4 ):

Passive armor brutix 800mm T2 plate. Bacause even with 2 MACR and +3% PG imp its not enough for 1600. Or downgrade 3 neuts to ions+3% PG imp + 2 MACR.
Armor hurricane - dont look at DPS. I have low skill for proje weapons. It also 425 Meta4. 1 free med slot for every you want. But you'll still have a lot of PG for T2. Or you can fit 220 and 1 neut.
Active armor brutix with 1 ion and 5 neut. Rigs - nano and ax.
Active cyclone i also have low skills for missile. Its meta4 HAM. But as you can see a lot of pg free. Btw 1 rig - purger, and em+therm resis rigs. 2 LASB free for fit.
Active tank myrm - 2 neut+3 ions. Same rigs like active brutix (ogres in dronebay)
Passive myrm - 1600 T2 plate. 2 neuts+3 ions. Not sure that TC good choice. But no PG for booster. Btw 2 MACR.

So.

Hurricane and cyclone much easy to fit. They have more EHP, better work distance and much faster. And good balance between solo ship and fleet ship. If i want solo? I pick cyclone., its better. Fleet? Sure hurr.
And what about gallent? If i want solo, i choose...??? And if i want fleet, i choose hurric? Great...

Yes. Its better than was (for brutix with +1 low) but with that PG... Srsly? Myrm need 2 MACR just for fitting like hurr?
Perihelion Olenard
#1925 - 2013-02-02 00:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Drop the guns down to electrons on the myrmidon and you have plenty of PG for tank. Its strength is in its drones, not guns. That's why the myrmidon should be the tankier of the two BCs and why I'd rather buffer the brutix. It requires less PG on a buffer fit since you can downgrade the cap booster or eliminate it altogether.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1926 - 2013-02-02 00:27:26 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Drop the guns down to electrons on the myrmidon and you have plenty of PG for tank. Its strength is in its drones, not guns. That's why the myrmidon should be the tankier of the two BCs and why I'd rather buffer the brutix. It requires less PG on a buffer fit since you can downgrade the cap booster or eliminate it altogether.


Which also leads to the rep bonus on the brutix being useless. So if ccp will give it a different bonus I'll agree with you, but if they remain with the rep bonus it just makes no sense whatsoever Sad
Perihelion Olenard
#1927 - 2013-02-02 00:46:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Actually, I'm a fan of kil2's buffer fit + single rep. It could easily be adapted to the brutix with an undersized cap booster. I fought an XL-ASB blaster ferox with it on the test server before the AAR was seeded and was an extremely close fight. If I had battlecruisers V or the medium AAR I would have won.

I also put together the new prophecy with electrons, a small nos, buffer fit + rep. Haven't tested it in combat yet, but it looks interesting. It's also more visually attractive than I thought.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1928 - 2013-02-02 01:43:02 UTC
Minor tweaks (since nobody want to touch a finger unless it smells like a grave mistake...)

Brutix

I fit a Brutix like this and I am 12,27 PG short of being able to fit a rig to enhance my active tank:
6x T2 Ions, T2 Warfare Link,
MWD, Cap Booster (both best named),
2 x T2 MAR, 2 x T2 EANM and 1 x T2 MFS.
I was using 1 ACR rig and no other rigs.

I have perfect fitting skills apart from missing armor rigging level 5 - do I really need implants and/or more than 1 ACR rig to use those rigs or any hybrid rigs? And then what do you expect from AWU 3 or 4 players?
10 more base PG would provide a ~13,75 extra powergrid on the fit which should be enough and seemingly very fair to allow max skilled players a little playspan (T2 MWD, T2 cap booster, trying to avoid the ACR rig etc etc)

Harbinger

I've tried to fit a Harbinger in various configurations mixing focused and heavy pulse lasers with dual MAR and 1600 plate setups and it all comes back striking me very balanced on the powergrid side, however almost all of them except the most downgraded and underpowered would not be able to fit even a T1 Warfare Link even if I fit a POU rig (CPU). Compared to all other battlecruisers I believe the Harbinger NEED 25-30 base cpu to work. The ship is already heavily undertanked and only have the dps and optimal ranges working for it yet seems limited to an bigger extent than any other ship.

Drake

The Drake will be fine for most things, however if you want to fit a Warfare Link the Drake need at least 10 more base CPU - Even for the most scraped and gimped fit I could be persuaded to fly... A setup much less attractive than any of the other warfare link fitted battlecruisers. So plz consider adding extra cpu to the Drake...

Hurricane

Completely unlike the other battlecruisers I've fitted up (and I tried all of them with different setups) The Hurricane always came up with more cpu than necesary. Cut it tight - Remove 20 base cpu and people can still fit almost anything they want without implants or cpu rigs. Even the most cpu intensive shield cane setup I tried only required the minimal tweak to fit. And still way easier fitting than any other battlecruiser.

Cyclone

I am truly clueless about the ideas behind the Cyclone - Obvously trying to active tank the ship with HAMs for getting the most dps out of only 5 launcher slots, however no matter what I am trying I feel locked into only just 1 Viable setup:

5 x T2 HAM, T2 Medium Neutralizer, T2 Warfare Link,
Named MWD, T2 Invuln, 2 x Large ASB, T2 Scrambler,
T2 DC, 2x Nanofiber, 2x T2 BCS
1x POU rig (CPU)
CPU/PG remaining: 0,3CPU/1,5PG

But the Cyclone really need at least 3 BCS and as said I couldn't get any other viable setups without having tons of PG remaining and a lot of CPU short. I could go single Large ASB and 2x Invuln freeing up 150 PG and 50 CPU to get a 3rd BCS, but since the last ASB nerf going with single boosters sould be a mistake unless it's possible to oversize it. But it isn't...

I'd definitely like an extra 30 or 35 base cpu, but I don't know if it's enough... You can do a lot of tanking, but with limited dps compared to other battlecruisers you need other advantages. The extra utility slot might work, as well as a good base velocity. But 5 slots for an active shield tank is on the edge already and it looks like you need at least 1 slot of E-war to give you any advantage. Certainly it's near impossible to dictate range without a web and impossible to outsmart a ship with less dps unless you can Tracking disrupt it or something similar.

I don't know... I'd really consider finding an extra medslot for the Cyclone, some extra cpu or I don't know what to do with it. Having a ship with so few possible working setups seems wrong.

Pinky
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1929 - 2013-02-02 02:14:06 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Minor tweaks (since nobody want to touch a finger unless it smells like a grave mistake...)

Brutix

I fit a Brutix like this and I am 12,27 PG short of being able to fit a rig to enhance my active tank:
6x T2 Ions, T2 Warfare Link,
MWD, Cap Booster (both best named),
2 x T2 MAR, 2 x T2 EANM and 1 x T2 MFS.
I was using 1 ACR rig and no other rigs.

I have perfect fitting skills apart from missing armor rigging level 5 - do I really need implants and/or more than 1 ACR rig to use those rigs or any hybrid rigs? And then what do you expect from AWU 3 or 4 players?
10 more base PG would provide a ~13,75 extra powergrid on the fit which should be enough and seemingly very fair to allow max skilled players a little playspan (T2 MWD, T2 cap booster, trying to avoid the ACR rig etc etc)

Harbinger

I've tried to fit a Harbinger in various configurations mixing focused and heavy pulse lasers with dual MAR and 1600 plate setups and it all comes back striking me very balanced on the powergrid side, however almost all of them except the most downgraded and underpowered would not be able to fit even a T1 Warfare Link even if I fit a POU rig (CPU). Compared to all other battlecruisers I believe the Harbinger NEED 25-30 base cpu to work. The ship is already heavily undertanked and only have the dps and optimal ranges working for it yet seems limited to an bigger extent than any other ship.

Drake

The Drake will be fine for most things, however if you want to fit a Warfare Link the Drake need at least 10 more base CPU - Even for the most scraped and gimped fit I could be persuaded to fly... A setup much less attractive than any of the other warfare link fitted battlecruisers. So plz consider adding extra cpu to the Drake...

Hurricane

Completely unlike the other battlecruisers I've fitted up (and I tried all of them with different setups) The Hurricane always came up with more cpu than necesary. Cut it tight - Remove 20 base cpu and people can still fit almost anything they want without implants or cpu rigs. Even the most cpu intensive shield cane setup I tried only required the minimal tweak to fit. And still way easier fitting than any other battlecruiser.

Cyclone

I am truly clueless about the ideas behind the Cyclone - Obvously trying to active tank the ship with HAMs for getting the most dps out of only 5 launcher slots, however no matter what I am trying I feel locked into only just 1 Viable setup:

5 x T2 HAM, T2 Medium Neutralizer, T2 Warfare Link,
Named MWD, T2 Invuln, 2 x Large ASB, T2 Scrambler,
T2 DC, 2x Nanofiber, 2x T2 BCS
1x POU rig (CPU)
CPU/PG remaining: 0,3CPU/1,5PG

But the Cyclone really need at least 3 BCS and as said I couldn't get any other viable setups without having tons of PG remaining and a lot of CPU short. I could go single Large ASB and 2x Invuln freeing up 150 PG and 50 CPU to get a 3rd BCS, but since the last ASB nerf going with single boosters sould be a mistake unless it's possible to oversize it. But it isn't...

I'd definitely like an extra 30 or 35 base cpu, but I don't know if it's enough... You can do a lot of tanking, but with limited dps compared to other battlecruisers you need other advantages. The extra utility slot might work, as well as a good base velocity. But 5 slots for an active shield tank is on the edge already and it looks like you need at least 1 slot of E-war to give you any advantage. Certainly it's near impossible to dictate range without a web and impossible to outsmart a ship with less dps unless you can Tracking disrupt it or something similar.

I don't know... I'd really consider finding an extra medslot for the Cyclone, some extra cpu or I don't know what to do with it. Having a ship with so few possible working setups seems wrong.

Pinky


AAR would probobly get that brutix to be able to fit active rigs. It has lower PG needs then t2 armor reps.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
Perihelion Olenard
#1930 - 2013-02-02 03:26:42 UTC
I tried the prophecy out in some combat on the test server and it seems to do decent in tackling big things others wouldn't want to get close to. It doesn't have the DPS of the rest, but it sure survives a lot longer. I don't have a problem fitting what I want to it, either.

I could have a lot of fun in this ship. I have always preferred tanking ships more heavily than fitting for more gank instead. Even with 5 out of 7 lows dedicated to buffer I was able to get over 85k EHP on the lowest resist, explosive. That's assuming the reactive armor hardener stays at 15% all.

I'll still fly the myrmidon, but I may like the prophecy more.
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1931 - 2013-02-02 06:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Drop the guns down to electrons on the myrmidon and you have plenty of PG for tank. Its strength is in its drones, not guns. That's why the myrmidon should be the tankier of the two BCs and why I'd rather buffer the brutix. It requires less PG on a buffer fit since you can downgrade the cap booster or eliminate it altogether.

You mean drop guns in passive tank? It was like: "Oh, i could fly with armor hurri fleet!" . And with elec i just fit +1 trim if i still want to fit med cap b. Because hurri w\o cap b. could fly ~6 min with MWD on.
And why Drake doesnt need to drop something? Or Cyclone to fit their strongest tank?
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1932 - 2013-02-02 07:25:55 UTC
Captain Semper wrote:
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Drop the guns down to electrons on the myrmidon and you have plenty of PG for tank. Its strength is in its drones, not guns. That's why the myrmidon should be the tankier of the two BCs and why I'd rather buffer the brutix. It requires less PG on a buffer fit since you can downgrade the cap booster or eliminate it altogether.

You mean drop guns in passive tank? It was like: "Oh, i could fly with armor hurri fleet!" . And with elec i just fit +1 trim if i still want to fit med cap b. Because hurri w\o cap b. could fly ~6 min with MWD on.
And why Drake doesnt need to drop something? Or Cyclone to fit their strongest tank?
The part I bolded and italicized for you shouldn't be new or surprising. It's just keeping with the times.

In these times, obviously there's a bias developing (developed) toward shield tanking. New modules, skills, etc. coming out (or out) all show some bias toward shield tanking over armor: RAH comes out--requires a skillbook to make it useful; no similar skill book required to make ASBs more effective, load more charges, cycle faster, etc. ASB comes out--not limited in number able to be fit, no cap use; AAR coming out--still takes cap, limited to one per ship. Armor mass reduction being introduced--for the cost of a skillbook and training! New shield-oriented skill books in recent patches/expansions--(crickets).

It seems fairly clear that the powers that be at CCP want players to continue to easily be able to jump into a shield ship to join the mindless drake null blobs quickly while leaving armor tanking as an option "for vets," since it requires many more skills (read: time) to be as effective as a shield tanker out of the box (not really, ASB cap independence + speed advantage don't really compare to armor's crippling cap dependence (with armor ships' weapons, too!) and slow speed penalties--this doesn't even take into account that in order for armor ships to "catch up" to shield ones they need to use MWDs, which completely negate the low-sig advantage of armor...).

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Draek Andorii
Spiffo in Space
#1933 - 2013-02-02 08:16:40 UTC
Just dropped by to say I'd give up the Drake's tiny (if any) damage buff to keep everything else the same. Just because it was a good boat doesn't mean it needed to be nerf'd in every single area. Disappointed by that method of thought.
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1934 - 2013-02-02 09:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Draek Andorii wrote:
Just dropped by to say I'd give up the Drake's tiny (if any) damage buff to keep everything else the same. Just because it was a good boat doesn't mean it needed to be nerf'd in every single area. Disappointed by that method of thought.

Drake have shield pool like BS. Is it ok? Why my myrm or proph have ~13-15k of armor and drake could even 25k of shield with insane resist? Its "balance"...
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1935 - 2013-02-02 09:50:29 UTC
Captain Semper wrote:
Draek Andorii wrote:
Just dropped by to say I'd give up the Drake's tiny (if any) damage buff to keep everything else the same. Just because it was a good boat doesn't mean it needed to be nerf'd in every single area. Disappointed by that method of thought.

Drake have shield pool like BS. Is it ok? Why my myrm or proph have ~13-15k of armor and drake could even 25k of shield with insane resist? Its "balance"...


Frankly, given that I prefer the PODLA Drake, I would have preferred for the devs to drop a large portion of Drake's tank and shift it more towards a kiter. Sadly, they decided for it to stay the Brick. Sucks, but oh well, can't help it now.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1936 - 2013-02-02 11:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
These fitting copmplaints are silly. If any, BC should be harder to fit, not easier. There's no point to lower grade weapon if any ship can fit the larger ones without any sacrifice.

BTW, start to look at ship stats, abilities and performance on battlefield before crying about low fitting. With ions, a brutix can go well over 700dps with a good tank. And as Wivabel showed, neutron+800mm plate work fine, with insane dps and huge tank. Even with electron, the Brutix have more dps than the hurricane with 425mm+HAM. Do you know what balance mean ?

Some people here look like childrens. You are not looking at balance, only at stupid and irrelevant fitting config without any link to ship efficiency. The only argument I see for these fitting cries is "I want to fit anything without thinking !", and that's not the way it should be.

Oh, and complaining about blasters not hitting far enough is completely stupid, and even more now with the armor rebalance.

This look more like a wish list tha, a balancing thread.
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1937 - 2013-02-02 12:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
These fitting copmplaints are silly. If any, BC should be harder to fit, not easier. There's no point to lower grade weapon if any ship can fit the larger ones without any sacrifice.

BTW, start to look at ship stats, abilities and performance on battlefield before crying about low fitting. With ions, a brutix can go well over 700dps with a good tank. And as Wivabel showed, neutron+800mm plate work fine, with insane dps and huge tank. Even with electron, the Brutix have more dps than the hurricane with 425mm+HAM. Do you know what balance mean ?

Some people here look like childrens. You are not looking at balance, only at stupid and irrelevant fitting config without any link to ship efficiency. The only argument I see for these fitting cries is "I want to fit anything without thinking !", and that's not the way it should be.

Oh, and complaining about blasters not hitting far enough is completely stupid, and even more now with the armor rebalance.

This look more like a wish list tha, a balancing thread.

So, why i have no problem to fit drake, cyclone, hurri w\o downgrade somthing and even more! I fit oversized mods! And why when i try do that for gallent and amarr i get realy big problem?

"Insane" dps with ions and "even" elec is about for 3-4km. Let's take a look:
As i wrote before, you get scrambl at most situations in pvp when try get close then 10-11km. So, you have your scrambl on enemy with web. But an enemy use scrambl on you.
So your speed like 50 m/s and enemy speed same. Tell me, how you would deal "insane" damage with ions and "even" ele at 8-10 km? You have no TC or TE, because all your low slots need for tanking and med slot points\cap b.

If you think, that BC need problem with fit, change other shield BC to have same problem as armor have. But i dont need downgrade weapons even in armor fit hurri with 1600mm plate.
Sae Eto
Free Ships Jita
#1938 - 2013-02-02 14:40:37 UTC
Yxilan wrote:

When's the last time you had to use implants and rigs to fit HAMS on a Drake? or 425s on a Hurricane? Or Heavy Pulse on a Harbringer or Absolution?


http://imgur.com/MmbeDiN
http://imgur.com/SXDywhs

Just sayin'.
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1939 - 2013-02-02 15:08:22 UTC
Sae Eto wrote:
Yxilan wrote:

When's the last time you had to use implants and rigs to fit HAMS on a Drake? or 425s on a Hurricane? Or Heavy Pulse on a Harbringer or Absolution?


http://imgur.com/MmbeDiN
http://imgur.com/SXDywhs

Just sayin'.

Fit 1 PDS instead of 1 BCS and use imp for 1% pg
Fit

And btw. 21k shield pool. Passive tank brutix only 11-13 and need to downgrade weapons.
And if you have recons in you fleet you could also use this fit.
Its impossible to make something similar with armor tank ships. (or w\o weapons or prop mod)
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#1940 - 2013-02-02 16:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
As someone who has created his character using only one race's tech, saying I'm less than thrilled with the changes to the Prophecy would be an understatement. WTH is going on? I think the Prophecy hull is one of the most beautiful in the game. I couldn't care less that the Harbinger is getting a dmg bonus. It already has a dmg bonus and already does more dmg than a Prophecy. Yet I've still chosen to fly a Prophecy in most situations, even with less dps, just because its a better-looking ship. Since I won't be flying a Myrm or a Hurricane any time soon, what do I have to look forward to?

-2 turrets
-200 pwg
-419 shields
-395 hull
- align time
+ drones
_________

combat bc?

If I wanted drones, I'dve created a Gallente character. Drones suck. The Amarr are the energy weapon/armor repping race. They're alligned with Caldari so some missle bonuses/boats make sense. Turning one of the most-beautiful ships in the game into a drone boat will ensure that I'm forced to fly fugly Harbingers from now on and I'm not too happy about that. I've been looking for this thread and couldn't find it because its hidden in features and ideas. When I read it, I actually had to log out. If you wanted tears, here you go.

Pretty unhappy here.

YK