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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1201 - 2013-01-15 16:33:52 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Cyclone should keep it's RoF bonus. Make it the 'DPS' missile boat.


The Cyclone will be the mobile missile BC, it shouldn't be the DPSy one too.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1202 - 2013-01-15 16:45:21 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
How come the harbingers second bonus only partly counters their favored weapons inherent weakness?


Lasers are powerful by default. Take for instance an unbonused battlecruiser with 6 guns (I'm using Ferox for this, except for range on hybrids where I'm using Brutix to get the base number). Let's assume 2 weapon upgrades in lows and use of most popular ammo (short range with ACs, IN Multifrequency + Scorch with lasers and CN Antimatter + Null with Blasters).

With 425mm AutoCannons II, it'll deal 329 dps at 1.5+12, with Heavy Neutron Blaster II it'll get 449 dps at 2.25+6.25 or 358 at 6.3+8.75, while with Heavy Pulse Lasers II, it'll get 367 dps at 7.5+5 or 292 at 22.5+5. That means that unbonused, anywhere beyond about 3.4 km where blasters drop under them, lasers will have superior damage to every other gun. As soon as you add a damage bonus, the dps goes through the roof (see Abaddon, Nightmare, Armageddon, Oracle for examples). So in a way, cap use is their balancing factor, you have the potential to do the most damage, but you also risk draining your ship and leave it defenseless. The cap bonus then offsets this risk at the cost of what could be a second damage bonus, resists or whatever. Had lasers not been working like that, CCP would be forced to lower their damage in order to balance them - and I'm sure we don't want that, do we?


With the proliferation of Neuts in game nowadays, and the upgrades to other weapon systems (most notably projectiles, but missiles and hybrids have seen some love as well), lasers are no longer that much ahead. Then you start to factor in the secondary ship bonuses that others are beginning to get (RoF bonus + damage, or Damage + tracking), which Amarr is forced to lose out on just for the ability to be able to fire their weapons for more than a minute or so, and the problem exacerbates.

1 Damage type, slower tracking, already is a balancing factor. I agree with the other poster in that fitting for lasers should be accounted for in another way. Losing out on secondary bonuses just for the ability to mount the weapons and use them, in particular on a Race of ships with the highest cap vulnerability, highest cap use, and lowest mid slots of the races already, is not as balanced as it was 6 yrs ago.

There are also secondary things that indirectly affect the landscape (capless weapons, asb's, etc) as a whole.

Just my take on it,

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1203 - 2013-01-15 17:34:22 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Cyclone should keep it's RoF bonus. Make it the 'DPS' missile boat.


The Cyclone will be the mobile missile BC, it shouldn't be the DPSy one too.

I agree.

But seeing as both the Gallente and the Caldari have kept tanking bonuses to both their BCs, maybe its time to let that slide. Many suggestions have already been made towards the Brutix and the Myrmidon with regards to an alternative bonus, but I suggest a change for the Drake. How about a range bonus, say 10% velocity, towards missiles? With max skills your only looking at about 40km maximum range for HMLs, and a lot less for T2. That's not a lot for a long range weapon system and there's no way of extending it at this time, without using rigs or implants.

The other main Caldari missile boats, notably the Kestrel, the Corax, the Caracal and the Raven, all recieve a velocity bonus. The Drake stands alone in this line. A 10% velocity bonus would allow the Drake to spew heavy missiles out to 60km and HAMs out to 21km, allowing it to kite out of web range and apply solid dps. Also, even the fastest interceptors would have a hard time outrunning a heavy missile going 8km/s.

Don't get me wrong, that resist bonus has saved my ass over and over again. I have been flying a Drake in PvE and PvP for the best part of a year now and as much as I hate looking at its ugly mug, I damn well respect its tenacity and staying power.

If there is going to be some sort of TE like device that will extend missile range and increase explosion velocity then I would probably retract this suggestion. But until that time, I think this may be a viable option.

Friends
Mund Richard
#1204 - 2013-01-15 18:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Roime wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Roime wrote:
whereas Myrm will be able to deliver 469 vs 158 drone dps out to (theoretical) maximum of 60km.
Of course, you are assuming the 1km/sec MWDing (not orbit speed!) Ogres catch up to the target (plated battleship, or no MWD?), who doesn't shoot the non-repping and limited in supply (btw 600? 750 sig?) drones down as opposed to shooting at the ship that is know to fit a helluva rep making a fight long.
A fight, that once it's 7 drones are out is about shooting a punching bag.
Like I said, theoretical. In practice we're talking probably under long point ranges, which is still a lot more than blasters.
In practice:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
You don't put ogres on an unwebbed/scrammed target unless you really REALLY want to lose your ogres.
What he said.
An ogre will not catch anything faster than a plated BS unless it's scrammed (or out of cap).

If it's scrammed, it's within blaster range*.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1205 - 2013-01-15 19:12:32 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
How come the harbingers second bonus only partly counters their favored weapons inherent weakness?


Lasers are powerful by default. Take for instance an unbonused battlecruiser with 6 guns (I'm using Ferox for this, except for range on hybrids where I'm using Brutix to get the base number). Let's assume 2 weapon upgrades in lows and use of most popular ammo (short range with ACs, IN Multifrequency + Scorch with lasers and CN Antimatter + Null with Blasters).

With 425mm AutoCannons II, it'll deal 329 dps at 1.5+12, with Heavy Neutron Blaster II it'll get 449 dps at 2.25+6.25 or 358 at 6.3+8.75, while with Heavy Pulse Lasers II, it'll get 367 dps at 7.5+5 or 292 at 22.5+5. That means that unbonused, anywhere beyond about 3.4 km where blasters drop under them, lasers will have superior damage to every other gun. As soon as you add a damage bonus, the dps goes through the roof (see Abaddon, Nightmare, Armageddon, Oracle for examples). So in a way, cap use is their balancing factor, you have the potential to do the most damage, but you also risk draining your ship and leave it defenseless. The cap bonus then offsets this risk at the cost of what could be a second damage bonus, resists or whatever. Had lasers not been working like that, CCP would be forced to lower their damage in order to balance them - and I'm sure we don't want that, do we?


With the proliferation of Neuts in game nowadays, and the upgrades to other weapon systems (most notably projectiles, but missiles and hybrids have seen some love as well), lasers are no longer that much ahead. Then you start to factor in the secondary ship bonuses that others are beginning to get (RoF bonus + damage, or Damage + tracking), which Amarr is forced to lose out on just for the ability to be able to fire their weapons for more than a minute or so, and the problem exacerbates.

1 Damage type, slower tracking, already is a balancing factor. I agree with the other poster in that fitting for lasers should be accounted for in another way. Losing out on secondary bonuses just for the ability to mount the weapons and use them, in particular on a Race of ships with the highest cap vulnerability, highest cap use, and lowest mid slots of the races already, is not as balanced as it was 6 yrs ago.

There are also secondary things that indirectly affect the landscape (capless weapons, asb's, etc) as a whole.

Just my take on it,

~Z

You have good points, but Amarr is still an excellent race overall due to how well their armor scales up within fleets. Both with, and without, resistance bonuses. So nothing really needs to be done.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1206 - 2013-01-15 19:23:16 UTC
I know Mund, I surprisingly fly drone ships in PVP. I'm also not talking exclusively about solo.





.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1207 - 2013-01-15 19:33:35 UTC
Is the situation with heavy drones on cruisers/BCs going to get unfucked? It's really bad, so I thought I'd sperg about it since there will be more of these ships expected to use them. Everyone else is doing instant damage out to 50km or whatever with med gun tracking, while these ships have vulnerable heavy drones trundling about unable to catch a drake. ****'s dumb.

How about some drone love in general, like making them less awful vs. moving targets that they are faster than?

I'm all over myrmidons and that prophecy, but I'm never going to fly them with wonky bandwidth, no spares and no projection against things that aren't webbed and scrammed.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1208 - 2013-01-15 19:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Is the situation with heavy drones on cruisers/BCs going to get unfucked? It's really bad, so I thought I'd sperg about it since there will be more of these ships expected to use them. Everyone else is doing instant damage out to 50km or whatever with med gun tracking, while these ships have vulnerable heavy drones trundling about unable to catch a drake. ****'s dumb.

How about some drone love in general, like making them less awful vs. moving targets that they are faster than?

I'm all over myrmidons and that prophecy, but I'm never going to fly them with wonky bandwidth, no spares and no projection against things that aren't webbed and scrammed.

You can get 755 DPS out of a myrmidon with 3 Ogres, a rack of blasters, and 3 mag stabs. 663 with a Valkyrie flight instead. Know how much the double DPS bonus of a hurricane gets you with comparable fit? 564. Harbinger? 671

I'm not seeing an issue. Web and Scram your target, blow him up. If you can't do that, get a buddy to do it for you.

Edit: I forgot the myrm lost a turret. But on the bright side, a fit with 2 DDAs and 3 Mag Stabs gets you back to 890 DPS
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1209 - 2013-01-15 19:57:51 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Is the situation with heavy drones on cruisers/BCs going to get unfucked? It's really bad, so I thought I'd sperg about it since there will be more of these ships expected to use them. Everyone else is doing instant damage out to 50km or whatever with med gun tracking, while these ships have vulnerable heavy drones trundling about unable to catch a drake. ****'s dumb.

How about some drone love in general, like making them less awful vs. moving targets that they are faster than?

I'm all over myrmidons and that prophecy, but I'm never going to fly them with wonky bandwidth, no spares and no projection against things that aren't webbed and scrammed.

You can get 849 DPS out of a myrmidon with 3 Ogres, a rack of blasters, and 3 mag stabs. 757 with a Valkyrie flight instead. Know how much the double DPS bonus of a hurricane gets you with comparable fit? 564. Harbinger? 671

I'm not seeing an issue. Web and Scram your target, blow him up. If you can't do that, get a buddy to do it for you.


If a drone ship is as inflexible as a blaster ship, there's no point flying one. Also 3 mag stabs is total **** fit.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1210 - 2013-01-15 20:01:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Is the situation with heavy drones on cruisers/BCs going to get unfucked? It's really bad, so I thought I'd sperg about it since there will be more of these ships expected to use them. Everyone else is doing instant damage out to 50km or whatever with med gun tracking, while these ships have vulnerable heavy drones trundling about unable to catch a drake. ****'s dumb.

How about some drone love in general, like making them less awful vs. moving targets that they are faster than?

I'm all over myrmidons and that prophecy, but I'm never going to fly them with wonky bandwidth, no spares and no projection against things that aren't webbed and scrammed.

You can get 849 DPS out of a myrmidon with 3 Ogres, a rack of blasters, and 3 mag stabs. 757 with a Valkyrie flight instead. Know how much the double DPS bonus of a hurricane gets you with comparable fit? 564. Harbinger? 671

I'm not seeing an issue. Web and Scram your target, blow him up. If you can't do that, get a buddy to do it for you.


If a drone ship is as inflexible as a blaster ship, there's no point flying one. Also 3 mag stabs is total **** fit.



Then don't fly it like a blaster ship. You're not forced to use Ogres all the time just because your bandwidth is 75.

Edit: 3 damage mods on a Cane and Harby is ***fit too.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1211 - 2013-01-15 20:09:44 UTC
Any one else see a problem when you fit mag-stabs on a drone ship instead of DDAs?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1212 - 2013-01-15 20:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any one else see a problem when you fit mag-stabs on a drone ship instead of DDAs?

Rack of 5 blasters with mag stabs: 470 dps
Drones with equal DDAs: 487 if you do that whole 2x Ogre, 2x warrior, 1x valk thing
322 if 5 valks

So no. It depends on what you want to do. 3 damage mods is an extreme example to highlight how the damage potential of the myrmidon is perfectly fine compared to the damage potential of other ships.

If you want utility and flexibility, don't fill your bay with ogres, throwing 5 blasters in your high and fill the lows with DDAs and complain when the ogres can't reach the target. Fit smart. If you still think there's a problem with the hull, present the problem.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1213 - 2013-01-15 20:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any one else see a problem when you fit mag-stabs on a drone ship instead of DDAs?

Rack of 5 blasters with mag stabs: 470 dps
Drones with equal DDAs: 487 if you do that whole 2x Ogre, 2x warrior, 1x valk thing
322 if 5 valks

So no. It depends on what you want to do. 3 damage mods is an extreme example to highlight how the damage potential of the myrmidon is perfectly fine compared to the damage potential of other ships.

If you want utility and flexibility, don't fill your bay with ogres, throwing 5 blasters in your high and fill the lows with DDAs and complain when the ogres can't reach the target. Fit smart. If you still think there's a problem with the hull, present the problem.

Saying that using the drone DPS option on what is supposed to be the more DPS focused of the 2 drone boats would be unfeasible kinda does point out an issue though.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1214 - 2013-01-15 20:26:34 UTC
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1215 - 2013-01-15 20:29:21 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.


Drone bonused ships aren't always using drones as the 'primary' weapon.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1216 - 2013-01-15 20:33:30 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.


Drone bonused ships aren't always using drones as the 'primary' weapon.

Well that is the problem.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1217 - 2013-01-15 20:35:53 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.


Drone bonused ships aren't always using drones as the 'primary' weapon.

Well that is the problem.


Dominix is about 50/50. There are others, like ishkur and vexor.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1218 - 2013-01-15 20:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.

That's apples and oranges, as the stabber only has 2 launcher hardpoints, and the DPS is objectively worse that way.

I"m explaining the flexibility that the myrm offers. Part of that flexibility is the DPS to rival battleships if you want to go with a shield, gankfit. Part of that flexibility is whether you want to do your DPS mainly through your drones, or mainly through your highslots. Or whether you want blasters in those highslots at all (or autocannons).

At cursory glance, I could see an issue with the size of the drone bay, as its so much smaller than the prophecy. This is the only issue coming to mind. Wait, no there's one more. Active armor bonus. That's a biggie. But claiming the myrm NEEDS to be able to throw more ogres in the bay? Questionable. The suggestion that ogres are too slow (this is the original claim that spurred my first post on the Myrm)? Laughable.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1219 - 2013-01-15 20:40:02 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:

At cursory glance, I could see an issue with the size of the drone bay, as its so much smaller than the prophecy. This is the only issue coming to mind. Wait, no there's one more. Active armor bonus. That's a biggie. But claiming the myrm NEEDS to be able to throw more ogres in the bay? Questionable. The suggestion that ogres are too slow? Laughable.



CCP have decided that giving gallente small dronebays is a good idea, for some reason. I don't get it at all. It's terrible. And yeah, armour tanking is horrible. Fozzie said something would be done, but I doubt it.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1220 - 2013-01-15 20:44:05 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.


Drone bonused ships aren't always using drones as the 'primary' weapon.

Well that is the problem.


Dominix is about 50/50. There are others, like ishkur and vexor.

Dominix Neutron blasters 601DPS Drones 475DPS.
Vexor Neutron Blasters 280DPS Drones 314DPS
Ishkur Neutron Blasters 175DPS Drones 99DPS

I don't call any of that 50/50

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.