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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1121 - 2013-01-14 10:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Kitsune Jones wrote:
Stop faffing around with giving ships weird numbers of drones. It's a terrible mechanic and just winds up with ships that can't use a matched flight of drones, while mismatched drone flights are as fundamentally smart as making a ship that mounts two large, one medium, and three small turrets. The result is a ship that sucks equally against all targets.

If you make a drone ship, give it the bandwidth to handle a full flight of the drone size for it. If you want to make Gallente ships definitively better with drones, do it by giving them a bigger drone bonus, not by making Amarr ships unable to use as many drones. Then give Amarr ships the bigger bays, but don't screw the Gallente by only giving them enough for a single batch of drones.

[Edit: Actually, on second thought, weird numbers of drones are acceptable if the ship bonus includes something like 'For every level your drone bandwidth increases by...' so that they can field a full flight of drones by the time they hit level 5. It's fine if a drone boat starts off as a mediocre drone boat as long as it can be made into a good drone boat with skill.]

I'd have to agree with this. Drone bandwidth should always be a full multiple of the designated size. The 2/2/1 drone flight is an idiotic concept that only ever happened because of ships having these weird numbers, and because min/max'ers think that every little green bar that can be filled must be filled, no matter whether that makes sense or not. Take that 25 drone bandwidth and dump those itemization points into something that matters, like drone bay for instance, or anything else really. Give the ship another gun . . . or 250 more points of structure HP . . . anything at all would be more useful than the mixed up toys drone bandwidth.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1122 - 2013-01-14 11:21:19 UTC
I'm starting to agree with those people who say "odd" drone bandwidth sizes are weird an impractical.

I see two possible solutions to this issue, if, indeed CCP believes it is an issue.

A) Lower bandwidth down to 50 M/Bit and increase Damage/HP bonus accordingly.

B) Increase bandwidth and replace damage + HP bonus with a tracking/optimal + HP range bonus.


Also. The Brutix and Myrmidon, like the Drake and the Ferox, sharing the same tanking bonuses should be reviewed.

In the case of the Brutix and Myrmidon. We need to figure out which ship should drop the Active Armour bonus.

The Brutix would benefit from either a Tacking, Falloff or MWD Cap use bonus.

The Myrmidon would benefit from either a Drone control range or a Drone MWD speed bonus.

Last point. All these BC's should have a utility high and the fitting to fill it with a gang link.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1123 - 2013-01-14 11:29:34 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I'm starting to agree with those people who say "odd" drone bandwidth sizes are weird an impractical.

I see two possible solutions to this issue, if, indeed CCP believes it is an issue.

A) Lower bandwidth down to 50 M/Bit and increase Damage/HP bonus accordingly.

B) Increase bandwidth and replace damage + HP bonus with a tracking/optimal + HP range bonus.


Also. The Brutix and Myrmidon, like the Drake and the Ferox, sharing the same tanking bonuses should be reviewed.

In the case of the Brutix and Myrmidon. We need to figure out which ship should drop the Active Armour bonus.

The Brutix would benefit from either a Tacking, Falloff or MWD Cap use bonus.

The Myrmidon would benefit from either a Drone control range or a Drone MWD speed bonus.

Last point. All these BC's should have a utility high and the fitting to fill it with a gang link.



Proph should have a higher damage bonus and 50 bandwith

Would also make it far more different from the myrm.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1124 - 2013-01-14 11:30:52 UTC
Maybe an definition of "roles" would be helpful.

There is an BC line capable of running with cruiser from the agility, and for sniping.
The old "tier 3" line.

There should be an line with flexible damage and tanky for doing Level 3 PvE and PvP with more defense style.
I would say, this is the Myrmidion, the new Prophecy, an missile Cylone could do it. For Caldari, a missile Ferox with RoF.
These ships should have 6x weapon slots, five for drone boats.

The balanced PvP Battlecruiser should be modelled in the direction of the old Hurricane. Good roamers, aggressive ships.
- Capable fit long range without extra mods for people skilled with AWU 4.
- Capable to fit short range + better tank.
- Speedier then the defensive BCs, as speedy as the Attack Cruisers. You can't mix, if it can't fly together.
- No boni to tracking to hit smaller stuff.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1125 - 2013-01-14 11:50:06 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Proph should have a higher damage bonus and 50 bandwith

Would also make it far more different from the myrm.



Considering this, the Prophecy would need a 20% per level bonus to Damage and HP of drones in order for 50M/Bit bandwidth to be equal to 75M/Bit. This would raise some issues of damage application on smaller targets as a flight of smalls would inflict just under 200 dps (Hobgoblin II's) before damage mods.

This would mean the Prophecy would have almost no vulnerability to frigates due to very high damage light drones + missiles.

I am not averse to this option however.

I would Suggest that the Myrmidon would be different however in that it would field 125M/Bit bandwidth but switch it's drone bonus to a 10% per level Drone tracking, optimal range and HP.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1126 - 2013-01-14 11:52:25 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Proph should have a higher damage bonus and 50 bandwith

Would also make it far more different from the myrm.



Considering this, the Prophecy would need a 20% per level bonus to Damage and HP of drones in order for 50M/Bit bandwidth to be equal to 75M/Bit. This would raise some issues of damage application on smaller targets as a flight of smalls would inflict just under 200 dps (Hobgoblin II's) before damage mods.

This would mean the Prophecy would have almost no vulnerability to frigates due to very high damage light drones + missiles.

I am not averse to this option however.

I would Suggest that the Myrmidon would be different however in that it would field 125M/Bit bandwidth but switch it's drone bonus to a 10% per level Drone tracking, optimal range and HP.


I think 15 would be more then enough


The applied dps would be far greater since ogre's are lol

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Mund Richard
#1127 - 2013-01-14 11:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Kraschyn Thek'athor wrote:
missile Ferox with RoF.

Vat?
Tanky Ferox with missiles?
What do you want the Drake to become then?

Attack BC line being cruiser-level agile and then sniping, mkay.
Tanky BC line for defensive play, ok.
And then you want a PvP balanced line that can keep up with the Attack BC, while being able mount a tank for brawling... less okay.

I'm all for the speedy/tanky/ganky redefinition, Caldari may not need the two overtanked ones, nor the Gallente, but feels like it needs some refinement (just like my post did).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1128 - 2013-01-14 12:14:05 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I'm starting to agree with those people who say "odd" drone bandwidth sizes are weird an impractical.

Odd bandwidth can work with stasis drones in a very limited number of cases - when smaller drones are fast enough to catch the target and slow it down, then larger drones overtake and give it a hug.
It could also work with neutralizing drones, if they had different cycle time - much the same as neut modules... but they dont.

The only thing that would really justify that wierd bandwidth is sub-capital drone control unit.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1129 - 2013-01-14 12:29:24 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I'm starting to agree with those people who say "odd" drone bandwidth sizes are weird an impractical.

Odd bandwidth can work with stasis drones in a very limited number of cases - when smaller drones are fast enough to catch the target and slow it down, then larger drones overtake and give it a hug.
It could also work with neutralizing drones, if they had different cycle time - much the same as neut modules... but they dont.

The only thing that would really justify that wierd bandwidth is sub-capital drone control unit.


I do hope you're joking.. Stasis drones slow ships down about as much as asking them nicely.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1130 - 2013-01-14 12:29:43 UTC
Kraschyn Thek'athor wrote:

The balanced PvP Battlecruiser should be modelled in the direction of the old Hurricane. Good roamers, aggressive ships.
- Capable fit long range without extra mods for people skilled with AWU 4.
- Capable to fit short range + better tank.
- Speedier then the defensive BCs, as speedy as the Attack Cruisers. You can't mix, if it can't fly together.

lol, nice try. Happily, that is unlikely to happen.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1131 - 2013-01-14 12:36:15 UTC
Why is the harbinger going to lose a turret?
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1132 - 2013-01-14 12:49:26 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Why is the harbinger going to lose a turret?


It's actually gaining 0.25 of a "virtual" turret with the increased damage bonus
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1133 - 2013-01-14 12:50:28 UTC
the changes will increase harbinger dps then?
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1134 - 2013-01-14 12:53:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Bastion Arzi wrote:
the changes will increase harbinger dps then?


The Harbinger will have the equivalent of 9 turrets instead of 8.75 at the capacitor and fitting costs of 6 guns instead of 7. It did also recieve a fairly hefty nerf to it's mobility and a little nerf to HP so it will depend on how you fit it to whether or not you get a DPS buff out of it.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1135 - 2013-01-14 12:57:38 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
the changes will increase harbinger dps then?


The Harbinger will have the equivalent of 9 turrets instead of 8.75 at the capacitor and fitting costs of 6 guns instead of 7. It did also recieve a fairly hefty nerf to it's mobility and a little nerf to HP so it will depend on how you fit it to whether or not you get a DPS buff out of it.



can u tell me how u worked this out please?

i thought

7 turrets each doing say 100 dps (just for simplicity sake) so in total 700 dps + 5% = 735

6 turrets doing 100 dps each = 600 dps then plus 10% only = 660

forgive me if im wrong
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1136 - 2013-01-14 13:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Bastion Arzi wrote:
the changes will increase harbinger dps then?


The Harbinger will have the equivalent of 9 turrets instead of 8.75 at the capacitor and fitting costs of 6 guns instead of 7. It did also recieve a fairly hefty nerf to it's mobility and a little nerf to HP so it will depend on how you fit it to whether or not you get a DPS buff out of it.



can u tell me how u worked this out please?

i thought

7 turrets each doing say 100 dps (just for simplicity sake) so in total 700 dps + 5% = 735

6 turrets doing 100 dps each = 600 dps then plus 10% only = 660

forgive me if im wrong


At Battlecruiser level 5 skill the bonus is (old) 25% and (new) 50%

So 7 guns doing 100 dps old (level 5 skills) = 700 x 1.25 = 875
and 6 guns doing 100 dps new (level 5 skills) = 600 x 1.5 = 900

So the buff is only apparant at a level 5 skilled pilot.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1137 - 2013-01-14 13:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
right thanks Lol

edit: sry tl:dr whole thread - when are these changes happening?
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#1138 - 2013-01-14 13:17:12 UTC
Kraschyn Thek'athor wrote:
Maybe an definition of "roles" would be helpful.
For Caldari, a missile Ferox with RoF.


Not only no, but **** no. Please stop trying to put missiles on every Caldari hull.

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Mund Richard
#1139 - 2013-01-14 13:25:17 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
right thanks Lol
edit: sry tl:dr whole thread - when are these changes happening?

SOON(TM).
Between now and spring-summer expansion.

The first 3 pages are possibly useful to read btw, Harbi change and the rest was discussed there first round.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1140 - 2013-01-14 13:52:53 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:


In the case of the Brutix and Myrmidon. We need to figure out which ship should drop the Active Armour bonus.

The Brutix would benefit from either a Tacking, Falloff or MWD Cap use bonus.

The Myrmidon would benefit from either a Drone control range or a Drone MWD speed bonus.



As you stated, there needs to be a change to one of the active tanking bonuses.

The Tracking you've suggested on the brutix is omo, a no go... That's a bonus used by the attack line which the thorax, talos, and megathron are part of. The MWD bonus? Yea, that's just a bad bonus... The Falloff bonus, like the tracking bonus, will make the Brutix just too similar to the talos. Saying that... I'm far more in favor of the Brutix keeping the active tank bonus with some serious revisions to the bonus. This would put it in the Incursus, Brutix, Hyperion "Combat" Line.

The Myrmidon is the one that I strongly believe should be losing it's active bonus in favor of another Drone related bonus. MWD speed or Drone tracking would interesting additions.