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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#861 - 2013-01-11 09:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Shrrrg wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
Some stuff about faction cruisers
Lol a faction cruiser winning 1 vs 10 is not what we want (or at what I don't want) and just goes against the whole point of tiericide. Yes, faction cruisers should be better than their T1 (As opposed to T2 which should only be better at 1 particular thing, i.e. specialise), but we don't want another Tengu scenario.

Phantasm does need a lot of work since it was weak even before tiericide (25 drone bay, better cap, better speed and possibly 1 extra low to either fit a TE or a nano). Vigilant on the other hand is fine. And the point of the Ashimmu isn't DPS. In fact most of the Pirate Cruisers (and faction crusiers) IMO just need their speed buffed to be on par with their T1 Hulls and Fitting slightly buffed (except for the Angel line, please don't buff them).

Yay i want a speedbuff in my navy osprey because i want to go as fast as a dramiel.
The faction cruiser are fast enough they simply suck or are too pricey for the 1% you gain extra

Nice trolling. But just in case you really are blind:


Caracal speed: 230 m/s
Caracal navy issue speed: 164 m/s

Vexor speed: 205 m/s
Vexor navy issue speed: 180 m/s

Stabber speed: 290 m/s
Stabber fleet issue speed: 248 m/s

Omen speed: 235 m/s
Omen navy issue speed: 192 m/s



The Osprey/Exequrer/Scythe/Augoror faction line are "combat" vessels unlike their t1 hull variants and thus your comparison is invalid. Furthermore in their combat roles they are exceeded by both the t1 attack and t1 combat crusiers. No one flies them. Except the Augorer Navy Issue which has an extreme niche role as obvious bait.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#862 - 2013-01-11 10:11:58 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Just to point out one more time how much Harbinger is nerfed, and that the"nerfed" Hurricane is the same as before, considering the nerfs to other hulls even better than before.

Fitting both ships with just the guns the Harbinger is left with 279 CPU and 533 PG, Hurricane has 387 CPU and 575 PG left. That puts the "nerfed" Hurricane 108 CPU and 42 PG above the Harbinger to spend on same number of slots. And this is considering AWU 5.

Hurricane is considerably faster than Harbinger, having more than 200m/s advantage over it when both are shield tanked and MWD fit. Not to mention much better acceleration and agility. Hurricane is still the fastest BC (the new Cyclone is ~20m/s faster when both are MWD fitted.).

Too add even more salt to the wound now Hurricane even has better tank, getting actually buffed overall in the tanking department while the Harbinger was hit hard, especially the shield. Now since we cant really talk about armor tanked setups (since Harbinger cant even fit a 1600 plate, propulsion and guns without and implant, and just one heat sink wound push it over the limit), before this Harbinger had a healthy 3k more EHP than Hurricane, and that was ok considering it is a much slower ship, and that Harbinger pilot needed implants and AWU5 to actually fit such a tank while Hurricane pilots could get it with AWU3 and still some PG to spare. Now shield tanked canes have more EHP and are still much faster.

And when we add capacitor problems in the picture it just gets better. To be fair Harbinger has much better damage projection over 10 kilometers thanks to scorch ammo and will considerably outdamage the Hurricane at those distances, but considering its speed it cant really kite anything and its tracking is so terrible that anything that comes closer to those 10 kilometers probably wont get hit at all. So in a nutshell Hurricane has better tank, more speed, incredibly easier fitting and (depending on situation) comparable damage.

Harbinger needs to have some fitting options without implants, the nerfs are too much. It should not be a fast ship, it would be op with scorch, but it at least needs a good tank. And you ppl could really try and fix the Hurricane, one neut less does not really make a difference, especially now when most other battlecruisers lost their utility slots as well, and it even got a better tank. It is now even better than before, with nerfs to the drake the cane is now the by far the best battlecruiser, its not even debatable anymore.


Don't let this post jump out and bite anybody since its full of fact

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#863 - 2013-01-11 10:18:53 UTC
I'm getting more and more concerned on racial weapon types. Till the recent rebalances projectiles had been the primary platform for the minmatar, torches for the amarr, so on. Since the last rebalance it seems that all races are dual weapon platforms. So far it was usually enough to train up the given race's primary weapon platform, but since the last rebalance, it's hardly can be called enough for flying the race.

Also, you are rebalancing stuff, and we have a long standing issue, the fleet-tanking stuff. A lot of ships are only getting local bonuses, while others are getting omni bonuses. I think to some point all races should have ships designed for fleeting up, that is, using remote reppers (read: recieving it). Local rep bonuses are completely ignored here. I understand the differences between the races, and they have to be kept to keep them not being the same, but still, there are a lot of factors: rep effectiveness (on rep effectiveness / rep ammount ), effective HP, so on. I think with the proper times and effort spent on it an aggreement is achievable.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#864 - 2013-01-11 10:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Looks pretty good!

(inserts Amarr cruiser III into skill plan for dat Neut Prophecy <3)

Myrm:

Getting 100mbit/s is long overdue, thanks very much for including it. Drone bay size is not an issue like some complain, the philosophy behind it is solid in Gallente ganknam style context. If I opt for biggest drones I can use, I'll be brawling and go for death or glory. With new DDAs, it's quite often glory tbh. Not having tons of spares is the price you pay for the amount of drone gank. Drone HP bonuses offset the issue as well, one does not simply pop bonused drones.

However, losing a slot for drones is something that needs to be solved with this update. Either forget it, or expand drone bonuses to all types of drones. Reasoning is based on the common explanation for the missing slot- versatility. Which is a fallacy. If a normal ship fits a EWAR, tackle, neut or reps, it doesn't lose +50% of it's dps. If a drone ship launches any other type of drones, it does considerably less damage, for less gain than from a module. Flight of web drones != web.

With bonused web drones, it would be closer. Wider bonuses might revitalize the unused EWAR and combat utility drones, and bring lots of interest and variety on the battlefield, and justify the lack of a slot.

  • Combine this with nerf to ECM drone base stats, and it'll be double win.

  • Sentry usage in fleets would be improved by doubling the sentry scoop range, to allow sentry ships to pre-align with sentries out.

    • Keeping the armor rep bonus is wonderful, because active tanking is FUN and increases variety in engagements- assuming the general (mild) buffs finally happen. Remove/change active armor rig penalty, shorten repper cycle time a bit and bring repper and ASB fitting stats closer to each others (any way is good, but the fitting/rep amount is currently incredibly imbalanced considering the fact that med repper fit always needs a cap booster).

    Dual rep + Nano accel + 2x Nano pump, max relevant skills, overheat and Exile are the minimum med repper configuration in current small gang meta, and it has a very low opponent count threshold when it becomes completely unviable. This tells a lot about the rep amount of med reps.

    Med Repper II on all V Brutix: 72.4 hp/s
    Med ASB on all V Brutix: 67.1 hp/s (frigate-size module)

  • Also, why give Gal BCs such HUGE sigs to make tanking even harder?


    • Brutix:

    What do you see as the main problem in making it a 5% resist bonus? Rep bonus tucks it tightly into solo/small gang locker, and the only thing Gallente lacks is large fleet viability.

    [EDIT: I missed the mass reduction, and removed the derp about slow Brutix - interesting change!]


    All that said, simply awesome to get this balance pass in a point release! You guys do a really fantastic job, and made Retribution the best expansion ever.

    .
    Grath Telkin
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #865 - 2013-01-11 10:53:54 UTC
    Magic Crisp wrote:


    Also, you are rebalancing stuff, and we have a long standing issue, the fleet-tanking stuff. A lot of ships are only getting local bonuses, while others are getting omni bonuses. I think to some point all races should have ships designed for fleeting up, that is, using remote reppers (read: recieving it). Local rep bonuses are completely ignored here. I understand the differences between the races, and they have to be kept to keep them not being the same, but still, there are a lot of factors: rep effectiveness (on rep effectiveness / rep ammount ), effective HP, so on. I think with the proper times and effort spent on it an aggreement is achievable.



    No, logistics ships are strong enough on their own, no ship ever needs a bonus to how much rep they give.

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
    Capqu
    Half Empty
    xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
    #866 - 2013-01-11 10:54:25 UTC
    hi fozzie,

    wrt the ferox

    what about the concern that range bonuses on hybrids are inherently weaker than range bonuses on other guns?

    since range bonuses only bonus either optimal or falloff, and hybrids are half of both, any range bonus on hybrid weapons is inherently 50% weaker than the same range bonus on projectile (falloff) or lasers (optimal)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
    Jorma Morkkis
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #867 - 2013-01-11 10:55:49 UTC
    Magic Crisp wrote:
    I'm getting more and more concerned on racial weapon types. Till the recent rebalances projectiles had been the primary platform for the minmatar, torches for the amarr, so on. Since the last rebalance it seems that all races are dual weapon platforms. So far it was usually enough to train up the given race's primary weapon platform, but since the last rebalance, it's hardly can be called enough for flying the race.


    Yeah, Gallente is drones only, Caldari is missiles only, Amarr is lasers only and Minmatar is projectiles only. Not.

    Every race has 3 weapon systems:
    Amarr:
    1st: Lasers
    2nd: Drones
    3rd: Missiles (previously only Khanid line, bomber and 1 T1 frig + additional launcher hardpoints on some laser ships)

    Caldari:
    1st/2nd (pretty much equal): Missiles/Hybrids
    3rd: Drones

    Gallente:
    1st/2nd (same thing here): Hybrids/Drones
    3rd: Missiles

    Minmatar:
    1st: Projectiles
    2nd. Missiles
    3rd: Drones
    Mund Richard
    #868 - 2013-01-11 10:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Jorma Morkkis wrote:
    Gallente:
    1st/2nd (same thing here): Hybrids/Drones
    3rd: Missiles

    Remind me of all our glorious missile combat ships.
    You say nemesis?
    I say Myrm and projectile turrets. Ofc with shields being used, it's rather the 3th minmatar Combat BC: the drone one with projectiles, the other two being missiles with projectiles and projectiles with even more projectiles. See, minnies still use predominantly projectiles.


    Jokes aside, being able to break the mold and be less predictable with your racial ships could (should?) be seen as a boon.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Hakan MacTrew
    Konrakas Forged
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #869 - 2013-01-11 11:01:53 UTC
    Magic Crisp wrote:
    I'm getting more and more concerned on racial weapon types. Till the recent rebalances projectiles had been the primary platform for the minmatar, torches for the amarr, so on. Since the last rebalance it seems that all races are dual weapon platforms. So far it was usually enough to train up the given race's primary weapon platform, but since the last rebalance, it's hardly can be called enough for flying the race.

    If you actually take a look at the Battlecruiser lineup you will notice that there are 2 using the racial weapon of choice and 1 using their secondary (except Caldari who still only have 1 missile boat. We know they aren't going to swap out weapons on the tier 3s, (Naga with missiles - on the one hand, I would love it, but it would a pile of crap,) so really your complaint is about changes to 2 ships, (which were barely ever used for anything,) out of 12. Not to mention there's nothing stopping you putting lasers on the Prophecy and every trains drones, so that dwsnt even count. So really your complaint is about the Cyclone, which is probably the most well recieved ship change in the line up!

    Other than that, I agree with you on the active tanking issue. But givens Hans's dig on page 1, I'm willing to bet there's a change coming to that bonus in general.

    Friends
    Sigras
    Conglomo
    #870 - 2013-01-11 11:11:05 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:
    Magic Crisp wrote:


    Also, you are rebalancing stuff, and we have a long standing issue, the fleet-tanking stuff. A lot of ships are only getting local bonuses, while others are getting omni bonuses. I think to some point all races should have ships designed for fleeting up, that is, using remote reppers (read: recieving it). Local rep bonuses are completely ignored here. I understand the differences between the races, and they have to be kept to keep them not being the same, but still, there are a lot of factors: rep effectiveness (on rep effectiveness / rep ammount ), effective HP, so on. I think with the proper times and effort spent on it an aggreement is achievable.


    No, logistics ships are strong enough on their own, no ship ever needs a bonus to how much rep they give.

    you mean like the resist bonuses that the caldari/amarr ships get?
    Jorma Morkkis
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #871 - 2013-01-11 11:15:04 UTC
    Mund Richard wrote:
    Jorma Morkkis wrote:
    Gallente:
    1st/2nd (same thing here): Hybrids/Drones
    3rd: Missiles

    Remind me of all our glorious missile combat ships.
    You say nemesis?
    I say Myrm and projectile turrets. Ofc with shields being used, it's rather the 3th minmatar Combat BC: the drone one with projectiles, the other two being missiles with projectiles and projectiles with even more projectiles. See, minnies still use predominantly projectiles.


    I thought I should add "tbh, Gallente is seriously lacking on missile ship part..." but figured everyone already got that fact figured out.
    Mund Richard
    #872 - 2013-01-11 11:18:48 UTC
    Jorma Morkkis wrote:
    I thought I should add "tbh, Gallente is seriously lacking on missile ship part..." but figured everyone already got that fact figured out.

    Hence my jokes asides line, and agreeing with how each race has many weapon systems, and it's not a bad thing.

    Appologies for the lack of warning, still used to have one in my sig.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Sinzor Aumer
    Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
    #873 - 2013-01-11 11:26:17 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:
    Sinzor Aumer wrote:
    That is, Naglfar should be superior of them all... The fact that it's not may be because of some broken weapon system (citadel missles) or tanking issues, rather than split-weapons themselves.

    The Nag sucks, everybody who's ever flown a cap of any kind knows it, as its been a hard fought fact for about ....hmm...ok ever since it was released.

    Worse than Phoenix? Fix those first, and then we'll see if it's about split weapons or not.
    Cyaron wars
    Academia RED HOT Corporation
    #874 - 2013-01-11 11:39:25 UTC
    I would love to see Brutix and it's T2 version getting some PG/COU buff. Trying to fit decent guns while keeping 2 armor reps is impossible unless u sacrifice all your rigs for PG/CPU rigs. This doesn't affect any other BC apart from harbinger after nerf.
    Grath Telkin
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #875 - 2013-01-11 11:47:48 UTC
    Sigras wrote:

    you mean like the resist bonuses that the caldari/amarr ships get?


    No, what he's asking for is a direct boost to the amount received from reps off of a logistics. Thats not the same as resists, which mitigate damage received while the rep amount remains the same.

    If you were to give a bonus to reps received it wouldn't matter what your resists were because it would simply restore X amount of shields, X being significant in the fact that you could say, theoretically restore ALL of a ships armor in a single cycle with the a single boosted cycle of reps.

    Thats silly, reps work just fine.

    Just wait and see what they do with active tanking for armor before we cry a river about it.

    The way they've been handling things you may find they finally fix active armor so its good, they didn't let us down on the cruisers and frigates, I'd rather have faith in the over all vision and let them put it all in and see what comes out before i start bitching about things that haven't changed yet.

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #876 - 2013-01-11 11:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
    Zimmy Zeta wrote:
    Should you take another look at the Harbi, please note that Scorch + Energy Locus Coordinators create the sweet synergy that made the ship viable for me even if it was slow as hell.
    There should be enough PG left to fit energy weapon rigs as a valid alternative to the standard 3xTrimarks.
    As far as fitting is concerned, CPU should be the limiting factor, not both CPU and PG.


    Scorch made the harbinger strong. Scorch and HPL. So it would be really appreciated if a fit of HPL + mwd + 1600 plate (meta IV) would be possible with no more than one ACR.

    And would you mind removing some of mass given to the hurricane? It was a skirmish ship to start with, now with the recent PG nerf etc. it's more or less forced into shield tanking (since 800 plates don't even let you catch reps against 5 battleships if armortanked, and a 1600 plate is harder and harder to fit without jeopardise the offensive qualities)

    edit: poor spelling corrected.
    Hakan MacTrew
    Konrakas Forged
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #877 - 2013-01-11 12:21:44 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:
    Sigras wrote:

    you mean like the resist bonuses that the caldari/amarr ships get?


    No, what he's asking for is a direct boost to the amount received from reps off of a logistics. Thats not the same as resists, which mitigate damage received while the rep amount remains the same.

    If you were to give a bonus to reps received it wouldn't matter what your resists were because it would simply restore X amount of shields, X being significant in the fact that you could say, theoretically restore ALL of a ships armor in a single cycle with the a single boosted cycle of reps.

    Thats silly, reps work just fine.

    Just wait and see what they do with active tanking for armor before we cry a river about it.

    The way they've been handling things you may find they finally fix active armor so its good, they didn't let us down on the cruisers and frigates, I'd rather have faith in the over all vision and let them put it all in and see what comes out before i start bitching about things that haven't changed yet.

    I disagree

    Tank is based on the combination of rep and resist. If one ship has 25% higher resists and the other recieves 25% more reps, they will tank the same level of damage. The over all benefit however falls to the resists, as it provides its benefit to EHP, helping defend against alpha and giving a much stronger buffer.
    I dont think 37.5% increased incoming RR would be balanced though. Maybe 30%.

    But yes, until we know exactly what Fozzie has up his sleeve with regards to active tanking, we will have to wait and see. until then, it's amking for interesting discussion.

    Friends
    Mund Richard
    #878 - 2013-01-11 12:23:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Capqu wrote:
    hi fozzie,

    wrt the ferox

    what about the concern that range bonuses on hybrids are inherently weaker than range bonuses on other guns?

    since range bonuses only bonus either optimal or falloff, and hybrids are half of both, any range bonus on hybrid weapons is inherently 50% weaker than the same range bonus on projectile (falloff) or lasers (optimal)

    While I do see your point, that's not quite the full story.

    Autocannons benefit from falloff, while Pulses are insane with optimal, Blasters aren't designed to have range Roll.
    Without bonuses using short-range T2 ammo, a blaster ship is in second falloff while a pulse ship is still in optimal.
    On the other hand, a blaster ship with Null(+40% opt/falloff/-25%tracking) still has more damage, than a pulse with Multifreq(loosing just barely against Navy Multi), while tracking better even with the ammo penalty, and just reaches out to overheated scram range still within half falloff without any range bonus... Worth pondering, ain't it?
    Being pointed by a heated disruptor... well, you loose. Roll
    Joke aside, Ferox with two TEs max skill, Null Neutrons, you still get into second falloff, by ~2 km.

    Now with sniping...
    Railguns with any ammo tend have both more range and and falloff than beams (at a loss of dps), while projectiles similar optimals and twice the falloff (at even more dps loss, but alpha gain).
    So here, optimal for rails is just fine, and projectiles are the ones lagging behind. Coincidentally, some T2 Minnie ships have optimal bonuses.


    And the story for short range ammo is only true like this for Medium ships!
    Battleship-level, anyone getting scrammed and webbed near a mega is getting off really bad, since it no longer needs a range bonus (opt+half falloff somewhere in overheated scram range), and has aaall the tracking it needs...
    Suddenly I see the point of the 7 turret Mega even more. Roll

    Edit
    OMG, did I just convince myself things are fine, and a Ferox with +damage AND 7 turrets would obsolete the poor-poor Brutix?
    But I wanted to fly a Ferox with +damage! Evil Maybe 6 turrets and a utility high that the Brutix will never get? Roll
    Edit2:
    And now I just convinced myself how the optimal is in fact beneficial against being FULLY lolkited by a cane... Roll
    But the Rokh totally needs a +damage bonus instead of the range Twisted

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Mund Richard
    #879 - 2013-01-11 12:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Hakan MacTrew wrote:
    I disagree

    Tank is based on the combination of rep and resist. If one ship has 25% higher resists and the other recieves 25% more reps, they will tank the same level of damage. The over all benefit however falls to the resists, as it provides its benefit to EHP, helping defend against alpha and giving a much stronger buffer.

    I respectfully disagree.
    The point already was how 25% resist lets you local rep almost just as well (~3-4% weaker at max level?) than a 37.5% local rep bonus.

    By the same math, why would 25% resist be equal to 25% remote rep recieved?
    It's the same amount of raw armor than in the first case...

    So no, in fact, it's even worse than what you made it out to be.
    Quote:
    I dont think 37.5% increased incoming RR would be balanced though. Maybe 30%.

    A ship with 30% local AND remote rep still gets less repair than a ship with 25% resist, and also has less EHP when buffer-tanked or being alphaed.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Hakan MacTrew
    Konrakas Forged
    Solyaris Chtonium
    #880 - 2013-01-11 12:37:35 UTC
    Actually, I've noticed one thing I'm not so sure about.

    The sig. radius of the Gallente ships are 22% larger than the Minmatar ones, making them only 15m smaller than a Typhoon.

    Is that not just a tad excessive?

    Friends