Player Features and Ideas Discussion

CCP Fozzie, are you reading this? if so I have one question for you, would you like to have a conversation about your proposed changes?

Same number of effective turrets that the brutix has.

I tend to agree. I'm all for tiericide now that I see it in implementation, but I was worried earlier when I saw indication that the changes following Frigates and Cruisers, and the addition of the new Destroyers and changes to existing ones, seemed to be that the trend would change to bringing down rather than up.

Aside from the Prophecy, it is my estimation that the class as a whole is being successively weakened. I'm quite certain the result is intended to make them more on level with Cruisers and close the gap between the two classes, but I don't agree that is necessary.

I have to take some more time to look at this, but I can already say that my recent experience with the Cruiser changes, coupled with my experience with current Battle Cruiser capabilities makes me feel as if Battle Cruisers have suddenly lost much of their appeal.

Further reducing their capabilities will make them even less desirable, and with reductions in grid and fitting options, and increases in Sig radius and mass, they are becoming far less capable as a ship class, and much less likely to be flown for the added cost alone.

I don't think Battle Cruisers were ever intended to be solely purposed for use as gank link ships, which is about all they'll be good for after this I think.

Yay i want a speedbuff in my navy osprey because i want to go as fast as a dramiel.
The faction cruiser are fast enough they simply suck or are too pricey for the 1% you gain extra

Maybe its good that BC's get taken down a notch so that they're not the go to platform anymore.

its true, right now basically all you see is BCs and T3s backed up by logistics ships anymore

and really all you ever see of the BCs is the hurricane and the drake.

after the change,
I see the prophecy being really strong,
the brutix may be able to hold its own if it can catch anything. . . (still have to experiment with the dropped mass)
the hurricane will still be strong just minus one neut
the cyclone may be lacking some damage but could still be quite viable as it is fastest with the longest ranged weapons . . .
the drake will still be a strong platform for tank and gank

none of them will be clearly the choice over battleships anymore . . .

it will be interesting to see what comes up with these changes.

But of course it was late, and I was totally wrong.
Base dps (now including all support skills) of T2s: 5 Hob / 5 Hammer/ 4 Ogre: 99 / 158 / 253 (before hull bonuses)

Base dps of the split 35 (before drone buff): 123
Buffed, it gets 184,5. In order for the 5 hobgoblins to get there:, 184,5 / 99 ~ +86,36%, dividing that by 5: 17,27% per level.
Nearest nice even number: 15%, 5 hobbits with x1,75 multiplier: 173,25, or a loss of 6,5%

Base dps of the split 75 (before drone buff): 210
Buffed, it gets 315. In order for 5 Hammerheads to be even: 315/158 ~ +99,36%, so ~20%/level.
20%: 2*158 = 316, so an increase of 0.33% or so?

Base dps of the 4 ogres or split 100: 253
Buffed, it gets 379,5. In order for 5 Hammerheads to get there: 379,5/158 ~ +140% so 28% per level
Taking 25%/level: 158*2,25 = 355,5, a loss of 7% (and I'm fine with that)
Taking 30%/level: 158*2,5 = 395, an increase of 4 %

The proposal no longer as nice with these huge numbers.

Just to point out one more time how much Harbinger is nerfed, and that the"nerfed" Hurricane is the same as before, considering the nerfs to other hulls even better than before.

Fitting both ships with just the guns the Harbinger is left with 279 CPU and 533 PG, Hurricane has 387 CPU and 575 PG left. That puts the "nerfed" Hurricane 108 CPU and 42 PG above the Harbinger to spend on same number of slots. And this is considering AWU 5.

Hurricane is considerably faster than Harbinger, having more than 200m/s advantage over it when both are shield tanked and MWD fit. Not to mention much better acceleration and agility. Hurricane is still the fastest BC (the new Cyclone is ~20m/s faster when both are MWD fitted.).

Too add even more salt to the wound now Hurricane even has better tank, getting actually buffed overall in the tanking department while the Harbinger was hit hard, especially the shield. Now since we cant really talk about armor tanked setups (since Harbinger cant even fit a 1600 plate, propulsion and guns without and implant, and just one heat sink wound push it over the limit), before this Harbinger had a healthy 3k more EHP than Hurricane, and that was ok considering it is a much slower ship, and that Harbinger pilot needed implants and AWU5 to actually fit such a tank while Hurricane pilots could get it with AWU3 and still some PG to spare. Now shield tanked canes have more EHP and are still much faster.

And when we add capacitor problems in the picture it just gets better. To be fair Harbinger has much better damage projection over 10 kilometers thanks to scorch ammo and will considerably outdamage the Hurricane at those distances, but considering its speed it cant really kite anything and its tracking is so terrible that anything that comes closer to those 10 kilometers probably wont get hit at all. So in a nutshell Hurricane has better tank, more speed, incredibly easier fitting and (depending on situation) comparable damage.

Harbinger needs to have some fitting options without implants, the nerfs are too much. It should not be a fast ship, it would be op with scorch, but it at least needs a good tank. And you ppl could really try and fix the Hurricane, one neut less does not really make a difference, especially now when most other battlecruisers lost their utility slots as well, and it even got a better tank. It is now even better than before, with nerfs to the drake the cane is now the by far the best battlecruiser, its not even debatable anymore.

Going back to the drone ships get -1 module discussion.

When a drone ship can't even mount one spare flight, instead of utility that's more of a liability on a ship KNOWN for it's local active repping...
Shoot at it while you are alone, and it will take ages.
Kill it's drones and it's de-fanged, pick next target if there are more hostiles.

Supposedly, one reason the drones get ahead in utility is their selectable damage.
But as it is right now, you either pick T2 Gallente for the damage, or Minmatar for the better tracking sacrificing raw damage.
That's not Caracal/Raven-type selectable missile damage, but more like Drake kinetic enforcement (though as if mjolnir came with an explo velocity bonus).

I'm all in support for a Drake that gets a proper damage (or RoF, if need be at the cost of a launcher - utility high, there we go for warlinks) bonus, and drones need a look at just as well.
(How many know WHAT a Praetor is, or name the Amarr Sentry? How many don't/cannot...)

Now...
I must admit, I see why droneships are a hassle.
CCP tried making pure drone ships, but it doesn't quite work out well.
Most combat-role drone ships now have either a split weapon system (now with the added difficulty of either drone or gun dps getting left behind when fitting a damage mod), or even on top weird drone bays leading to odd speeds and tracking.

I know CCP is aware that drones need a looking at.
Just as much how they are looking at armor tanking.
But it's hard to discuss ships without mentioning these aspects.

Not quite as good as the Naga tbh, but much cheaper, so i think its a viable ship for small gang pvp with logi now. How fast/agile is it?

Tbh i dont know why the tier 2 BC's needs those nerfs. Tier 1's were pretty useless and needed a buff. But why the nerfs of tier 2's?