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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#781 - 2013-01-10 23:48:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did I miss why the Drone Battle Cruisers have one less slot than all the rest?


Because that is honestly, silly design with poor justification behind it and it really should be undone from the other "drone ships".
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#782 - 2013-01-10 23:51:15 UTC
fukier wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did I miss why the Drone Battle Cruisers have one less slot than all the rest?

Other than the fact that this is standard practice for drone bonused ships?


they do that due the utility of drones... they can do anything (in a subpar manner)... which is why you get one less slot...

I fixed your sentence. Also with CCP spreading drones around hulls like they were a sexually transmitted disease maybe other ships should start losing slots too.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#783 - 2013-01-10 23:51:24 UTC
Fozzie, a few people including myself have mentioned the Drake and Cyclone having Rapid Light Launchers excluded from their missile bonuses, is this deliberate or simply an oversight? Rapid Lights aren't exactly a common sight in combat anyway, I can't really see any harm in them getting the same bonuses as the heavies and HAMs, and its weird to see them left out (imagine if the turret ships similarly got bonuses which specifically excluded the smallest turret option).

Any comment?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#784 - 2013-01-10 23:57:27 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
fukier wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did I miss why the Drone Battle Cruisers have one less slot than all the rest?

Other than the fact that this is standard practice for drone bonused ships?


they do that due the utility of drones... they can do anything (in a subpar manner)... which is why you get one less slot...

I fixed your sentence. Also with CCP spreading drones around hulls like they were a sexually transmitted disease maybe other ships should start losing slots too.

On that note, do drone bonuses extend to all drone types? If not and there is a slot loss for them it would seem appropriate to correct that.
Veronica Kerrigan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#785 - 2013-01-11 00:10:31 UTC
Mary Clarissa Titor wrote:
A few questions. Pardon me if they sound stupid. :)

  • Looks like all battlecruisers are keeping their warfare link module fitting bonus. But as far as I remember, the plan is to get rid of off-grid boosting in the future. That will make battlecruisers with warfare link modules usefull, while right now I don't think I've ever seen one fit on a real ship. Is there a particular reason for Gallente to have no battlecruisers with an utility high for such a usage while Amarr and Minmatar do?
  • What Hans said. Why both Gallente battlecruisers get an active repair bonus, when such a bonus so often remains unused in a fleet situation? With the current popularity of T1 logi, the usefullness of an armor resist bonus is much higher.


Otherwise, yay, heavies on myrm! :)

Well, here's one case of a person who uses links on a normal BC. Without perfect skills, the boosts aren;t much, but 10% bonus for one thing or another is usually worth the loss in one medium and one small neut on the Cane.
Mund Richard
#786 - 2013-01-11 00:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
fukier wrote:
they do that due the utility of drones... they can do anything (in a subpar manner)... which is why you get one less slot...
I fixed your sentence. Also with CCP spreading drones around hulls like they were a sexually transmitted disease maybe other ships should start losing slots too.

Well, a Dominix can field a full flight of heavies, have a spare flight of heavies of possibly different damage type to suit it's opponent's weakness (generally exp/therm), and still have 125 bay for utility drones.
And six damage bonused guns.
Compare that to an Armageddon (also tier 1): 7 bonused guns, 1 flight of heavies, and no spares.

You can see how the Domi is stronger in versatility. Killing the drones isn't really that much worth the time, if you kill 1-2 flights of heavies, 1-2 flights of mediums, it will still have it's 6 damage bonused guns bearing down on you, and quite possibly a few flights of light ECM drones to bugger out.
(Well, now that you have DDAs, it gets a bit more interesting with the lows. With Void even Ions do more damage than Ogres / Electrons more than Berzerkers before damage mods.)

The Myrm
  • neither has the luxury of such a bay (can NOT field even one full spare flight)
  • nor does it have nearly the guns of the Domi compared to any of the turret ships of it's category
  • it's heavies have issues applying damage to equal-size targets, or heck, even just catching them!

    • In fact, T2 Ogre speed, all skills at V: 1050 according to EFT. Myrm speed with no nano and T2 MWD: 1112 currently.
    It cannot even return to your bay, if you are chasing a kiting Cane...

    Yes, (as I posted before) I think it might need a looking at.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Sizeof Void
    Ninja Suicide Squadron
    #787 - 2013-01-11 00:25:30 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Examples of split weapon ships are the Typhoon and Naglfar, both of which are designs that I consider obsolete and worth changing when we get to them.

    I'd certainly like to see split weapon systems disappear for T1 ships, because skilling up multiple weapon systems is time-consuming, esp. for new players, and unbonused weapons suffer far too much when compared to bonused weapons.

    But maybe split weapon systems can find a new place on T2 combat ships, when you eventually get around to rebalancing their stats? Perhaps, with bonuses to both weapon systems?

    T2 ships are not entry-level ships, so requiring more SP to fly them effectively would not be unreasonable.
    Inkarr Hashur
    Skyline Federation
    #788 - 2013-01-11 00:41:02 UTC
    Mund Richard wrote:
    Inkarr Hashur wrote:
    fukier wrote:
    they do that due the utility of drones... they can do anything (in a subpar manner)... which is why you get one less slot...
    I fixed your sentence. Also with CCP spreading drones around hulls like they were a sexually transmitted disease maybe other ships should start losing slots too.

    Well, a Dominix can field a full flight of heavies, have a spare flight of heavies of possibly different damage type to suit it's opponent's weakness (generally exp/therm), and still have 125 bay for utility drones.
    And six damage bonused guns.
    Compare that to an Armageddon (also tier 1): 7 bonused guns, 1 flight of heavies, and no spares.

    You can see how the Domi is stronger in versatility, and for drones even in staying power even if a flight is killed, not really worth doing that Even if you kill 1-2 flights of heavies, 1-2 flights of mediums, it will still have it's 6 damage bonused guns bearing down on you, and quite possibly a few flights of light ECM drones to bugger out.

    The Myrm
  • neither has the luxury of such a bay (can NOT field even one full spare flight)
  • nor does it have nearly the guns of the Domi compared to any of the turret ships of it's category
  • it's heavies have issues applying damage to equal-size targets, or heck, even just catching them!

    • In fact, T2 Ogre speed, all skills at V: 1050 according to EFT. Myrm speed with no nano and T2 MWD: 1112 currently.
    It cannot even return to your bay, if you are chasing a kiting Cane...

    Yes, (as I posted before) I think it needs a looking at.

    Yeah and a gankfit Megathron (sentries or heavies) can do the exact same DPS as a gankfit Dominix (no neuts) while having almost the same versatility. He can give up the heavies and lose only some DPS while still being able to field flights of combat drones, repair drones, and ecm drones at his discretion, and still maintaining 1000 gun DPS.

    Should the megathron lose a slot? Its not a drone boat, its a blaster boat. But it can still do all the crap a domi can.
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #789 - 2013-01-11 00:41:42 UTC
    Scatim Helicon wrote:
    Fozzie, a few people including myself have mentioned the Drake and Cyclone having Rapid Light Launchers excluded from their missile bonuses, is this deliberate or simply an oversight? Rapid Lights aren't exactly a common sight in combat anyway, I can't really see any harm in them getting the same bonuses as the heavies and HAMs, and its weird to see them left out (imagine if the turret ships similarly got bonuses which specifically excluded the smallest turret option).

    Any comment?

    Battlecruisers excelling at taking out frigates is a bad idea.
    Grath Telkin
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #790 - 2013-01-11 00:45:10 UTC
    Inkarr Hashur wrote:


    Should the megathron lose a slot? Its not a drone boat, its a blaster boat. But it can still do all the crap a domi can.


    No it can't, you actually define WHY it can't in your own post.

    The domi can field the heavies AND a ton of utility lights and mediums, AND spare heavies, whereas if the Mega goes for heavies, thats pretty much it, if it goes for lights and mediums,. it can't have heavies.

    So whilst you were complaining you outlined the versatility of the Domi that justifies the missing slot.

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
    Mund Richard
    #791 - 2013-01-11 00:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Took a chill-pill, and edited my previous post a few times, now it's hopefully in a more discusson-worthy shape.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #792 - 2013-01-11 00:49:58 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Inkarr Hashur wrote:
    fukier wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Other than the fact that this is standard practice for drone bonused ships?


    they do that due the utility of drones... they can do anything (in a subpar manner)... which is why you get one less slot...

    I fixed your sentence. Also with CCP spreading drones around hulls like they were a sexually transmitted disease maybe other ships should start losing slots too.

    On that note, do drone bonuses extend to all drone types? If not and there is a slot loss for them it would seem appropriate to correct that.

    No they do not, only drone damage.
    Mund Richard wrote:

    Well, a Dominix can field a full flight of heavies, have a spare flight of heavies of possibly different damage type to suit it's opponent's weakness (generally exp/therm), and still have 125 bay for utility drones.
    And six damage bonused guns.

    It is also the only Gallente drone boat that can hold 3 full flights of drones. With how things are going I will expect to see that go away.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Da7id Huren
    EVE University
    Ivy League
    #793 - 2013-01-11 00:50:58 UTC
    Quote:
    Let me know what you think!


    I think you might wanna keep an eye out for waves of disgruntled Hurricane pilots. Big smile
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #794 - 2013-01-11 00:53:29 UTC
    fukier wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Did I miss why the Drone Battle Cruisers have one less slot than all the rest?

    Other than the fact that this is standard practice for drone bonused ships?


    they do that due the utility of drones... they can do anything... which is why you get one less slot...

    If this truly is the case then combat utility drones need to get a massive buff, to be put on the same level as an actual module and/or be able to do damage also, no other ship loses raw DPS in order to web there opponet.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Mund Richard
    #795 - 2013-01-11 00:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    It is also the only Gallente drone boat that can hold 3 full flights of drones. With how things are going I will expect to see that go away.

    If we had an Amarr drone boat coming, that would be a real threat...
    Except that on battleship level, you cannot field a size larger.
    Algos vs Dragoon: 2 mediums were included on the gallente side, to questionable effect (speed, tracking).
    Vexor and Myrm vs Arbitrator and Prophecy: 2-3 Heavies, same deal, also questionable.
    With battleships, you'd need the ability to fight fighters as a step up Twisted

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #796 - 2013-01-11 00:56:37 UTC
    Mund Richard wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    It is also the only Gallente drone boat that can hold 3 full flights of drones. With how things are going I will expect to see that go away.

    If we had an Amarr drone boat coming, that would be a real threat...
    Except that on battleship level, you cannot field a size larger.
    Algos vs Dragoon, mediums were included, to questionable effect (speed, tracking).
    Vexor and Myrm vs Arbitrator and Prophecy: Heavies, same deal, also questionable.
    With battleships, you'd need the ability to fight fighters as a step up Twisted

    I would LOVE to see fighters on the Dominx (and by association the Sin), that would be the best.Big smile

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Mund Richard
    #797 - 2013-01-11 01:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    I would LOVE to see fighters on the Dominx (and by association the Sin), that would be the best.Big smile
    Of course you realise that each Firbolg would cost 25mill, and 5000m3 drone bay, letting you opt to take 40 of each Heavy instead.
    But don't let me distract anyone, a Sin that can only house Fighters should be a thing.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
    Inkarr Hashur
    Skyline Federation
    #798 - 2013-01-11 01:03:50 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:
    Inkarr Hashur wrote:


    Should the megathron lose a slot? Its not a drone boat, its a blaster boat. But it can still do all the crap a domi can.


    No it can't, you actually define WHY it can't in your own post.

    The domi can field the heavies AND a ton of utility lights and mediums, AND spare heavies, whereas if the Mega goes for heavies, thats pretty much it, if it goes for lights and mediums,. it can't have heavies.

    So whilst you were complaining you outlined the versatility of the Domi that justifies the missing slot.

    Well if Domi pilots aren't complaining about it I suppose there's likely no issue.
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #799 - 2013-01-11 01:04:58 UTC
    Mund Richard wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    I would LOVE to see fighters on the Dominx (and by association the Sin), that would be the best.Big smile
    Of course you realise that each Firbolg would cost 25mill, and 5000m3 drone bay, letting you opt to take 40 Heavies for instead.
    But don't let me distract anyone, a Sin that can only house Fighters should be a thing.

    after Material tieracide how much will the Dominix cost? for the rest they cost close to the current top tier ship, and for battle ships that is around 200~300mill

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Mund Richard
    #800 - 2013-01-11 01:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
    Inkarr Hashur wrote:
    Well if Domi pilots aren't complaining about it I suppose there's likely no issue.

    From hull to hull, the impact of just that one slot is different, based on how useful the rest of the guns and drones are.
    The Domi is best off, since it has 18 compared to a Hyperions 19, plus it's one less turret than the tier 2s turret ships while still keeping pace more or less with it's second damage bonus. It's bay is HUUUGE, leading to many spare flights, so drones aren't that bad a liability on short term (their EHP added is comparable to the Domi's probably, and it's a hassle to kill 3-6 flights), they apply their damage to intended targets well.

    In short: it doesn't have the Myrm's shortcomings.

    Now, if it would get an extra slot, I wouldn't complain, but I won't protest as much as I do here, when the BS balancing pass comes.

    "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.