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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#641 - 2013-01-10 09:25:57 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Everybody here who like the drake say goodbye to it, it has now had its final hit with the nerf bat to oblivion.


Quit the whining, just because the drake no longer is the obvious choice for everything, does not mean it's not useful.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions
#642 - 2013-01-10 09:34:32 UTC
changing my beloved prophecy to a droneboat?

is that really necessary?
you end up with
prophecy: drones
damnation: missiles
absolution: lasers

3 different weapon systems for the same hull?

seriously?

3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#643 - 2013-01-10 09:43:46 UTC
Forgotten N Forsaken wrote:
Are you Guys freaking Crazy?!?! Wtf are you doing to the Bc class. Your destroying them.

Cyclone, yes its a good fix

You have Essentially Ruined the hurricane and turned it in to a summer Breeze. The myrm.. Take more tank away from it, take a gun away.. But give it one more heavy? Wtf.. A triple rep Myrm T2 fit. Struggles now to tank 2 cruisers. Its bullshit. My friends fit of 2 caracals both push out over 500 dps each and that's balenced?

Harbinger...You have destroyed it. Its hard enough to fit and to tank it well. and ur killing off some of its PG WTF are you guys thinking?

Active armor tanks I love them personally thats Great bonus, But there Freak in Pointless B/c you guys have put in ASB and there is no way to compete with the rep cycle of those things for an armor tank. Most ships you fight run 2 of them and anyone who is worth there weight knows how to feather the reps so that the other one can be extreamly close to being reloaded.

You guys are KILLING are BC class ships for the most part. There was nothing wrong With the Old Hurricane. ITs counter was the Drake. And lets face it. Drake did much better in terms of out right tank. ANd if people had fit hams instead of heavys. The drake had just as much if not more dps and tank then the cane.

Cyclone and prophcy are Decent changes, but the rest is Really ****.


Dramatic are we?

The BC has been highly OP for years and years.. Imo they aren't being nerfed enough, imo the difference between a BC and a cruiser should be the same as the difference between a dessie and a frig.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

K Leb
Light of the moon
Fraternity.
#644 - 2013-01-10 09:44:03 UTC
Why would harbinger has more mass than prophecy? The one with less armor, and no armor bonus, but has alot more mass??
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#645 - 2013-01-10 09:50:01 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I have to laugh at people who say the harb got nerfed, they obviously didn't read the stats right.


Defend this statement.

Its both slower and harder to fit, and the damage increase wont be seen by anybody but the highest skilled players, so please tell me how having an extra flight of light drones is in any way a realistic buff? How and when in EVE does sensor strength matter when eveybody carries EC-300's which could care less what your sensor strength is? How does more lock range help a ship that can't really project damage past 20ish KM without being a glass tanked sniper? How does having a larger cargo bay make it better?

What, you think that the changed damage bonus matters that much? Nope, sorry, at BC4 its the same as it was before, at BC5 its stronger than it was but only marginally.

Slower, less hp, less fitting. That equals a nerf. Theres no solid argument for those changes to a platform that was always already super tight on fitting, slow, and usually light on hit points.

So I'll wait right here while you explain how it wasn't outright nerfed.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#646 - 2013-01-10 09:51:20 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But Fozzie, 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount on both Gallente Battlecruisers?? But we all know how much active armor tanking sucks!! Whatever will you do about this dilemma..... Twisted


Very much this.

Fitting shield extender rigs on myrmidons and brutixes should not be a requirement but an option.


removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#647 - 2013-01-10 09:51:31 UTC
Peter Powers wrote:
changing my beloved prophecy to a droneboat?

is that really necessary?
you end up with
prophecy: drones
damnation: missiles
absolution: lasers

3 different weapon systems for the same hull?

seriously?



I see a "rebalance" coming to damnation (and sacrilege) turning it into drone boats.

You will hate this idea, it will happen.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#648 - 2013-01-10 09:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Grath Telkin wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I have to laugh at people who say the harb got nerfed, they obviously didn't read the stats right.


Defend this statement.

Its both slower and harder to fit, and the damage increase wont be seen by anybody but the highest skilled players, so please tell me how having an extra flight of light drones is in any way a realistic buff? How and when in EVE does sensor strength matter when eveybody carries EC-300's which could care less what your sensor strength is? How does more lock range help a ship that can't really project damage past 20ish KM without being a glass tanked sniper? How does having a larger cargo bay make it better?

What, you think that the changed damage bonus matters that much? Nope, sorry, at BC4 its the same as it was before, at BC5 its stronger than it was but only marginally.

Slower, less hp, less fitting. That equals a nerf. Theres no solid argument for those changes to a platform that was always already super tight on fitting, slow, and usually light on hit points.

So I'll wait right here while you explain how it wasn't outright nerfed.



- It does more damage due to getting a better damage bonus
- it lost fitting but less than what a heavy pulse/beams needs so in effect it gained fitting
- it uses less cap for its weapons now (while doing more damage)
- it gained 25m3 meaning it can now be 5 light+5 medium (this is a huge increase, if you think otherwise you're wrong)
- yes it got a speed loss, a whopping 10 m/s on MWD, and while it's already too slow I'm not even going to bother/consider marginal stuff like that.

So yes it got buffed, and in an overall nerf for BCs that is HUGE.
Apostrophe Diacritic
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#649 - 2013-01-10 09:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrophe Diacritic
Grath Telkin wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I have to laugh at people who say the harb got nerfed, they obviously didn't read the stats right.


Defend this statement.

Its both slower and harder to fit, and the damage increase wont be seen by anybody but the highest skilled players, so please tell me how having an extra flight of light drones is in any way a realistic buff? How and when in EVE does sensor strength matter when eveybody carries EC-300's which could care less what your sensor strength is? How does more lock range help a ship that can't really project damage past 20ish KM without being a glass tanked sniper? How does having a larger cargo bay make it better?

What, you think that the changed damage bonus matters that much? Nope, sorry, at BC4 its the same as it was before, at BC5 its stronger than it was but only marginally.

Slower, less hp, less fitting. That equals a nerf. Theres no solid argument for those changes to a platform that was always already super tight on fitting, slow, and usually light on hit points.

So I'll wait right here while you explain how it wasn't outright nerfed.


The only real nerf is speed. Yeah 2% more mass is really gonna slow you down. Totally ruined the ship. 9 PG and 3 CPU nerf is also a nail in the coffin.

Stop whining. 300000 more mass is gonna slow down mwd fit harby by ~20m/s, and afterburner fit by ~5m/s.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#650 - 2013-01-10 10:00:29 UTC
dexington wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Everybody here who like the drake say goodbye to it, it has now had its final hit with the nerf bat to oblivion.


Quit the whining, just because the drake no longer is the obvious choice for everything, does not mean it's not useful.


What would you use the drake for?
NorthCrossroad
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#651 - 2013-01-10 10:07:26 UTC
Changes are ok. They will definitely shake things up.

The only thing that really makes me wonder - armor rep bonus on both gallente. It should be changed on one of the hulls. Maybe drone MWD bonus for myrm. Or a tracking bonus on brutix.
El'Kaniery
Aries Engineering
Quasar Generation
#652 - 2013-01-10 10:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: El'Kaniery
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I have to laugh at people who say the harb got nerfed, they obviously didn't read the stats right.


Defend this statement.

Its both slower and harder to fit, and the damage increase wont be seen by anybody but the highest skilled players, so please tell me how having an extra flight of light drones is in any way a realistic buff? How and when in EVE does sensor strength matter when eveybody carries EC-300's which could care less what your sensor strength is? How does more lock range help a ship that can't really project damage past 20ish KM without being a glass tanked sniper? How does having a larger cargo bay make it better?

What, you think that the changed damage bonus matters that much? Nope, sorry, at BC4 its the same as it was before, at BC5 its stronger than it was but only marginally.

Slower, less hp, less fitting. That equals a nerf. Theres no solid argument for those changes to a platform that was always already super tight on fitting, slow, and usually light on hit points.

So I'll wait right here while you explain how it wasn't outright nerfed.



- It does more damage due to getting a better damage bonus
- it lost fitting but less than what a heavy pulse/beams needs so in effect it gained fitting
- it uses less cap for its weapons now (while doing more damage)
- it gained 25m3 meaning it can now be 5 light+5 medium (this is a huge increase, if you think otherwise you're wrong)
- yes it got a speed loss, a whopping 10 m/s on MWD, and while it's already too slow I'm not even going to bother/consider marginal stuff like that.

So yes it got buffed, and in an overall nerf for BCs that is HUGE.


Have you one time fly a harbinger guy. I believe never ...

More damage is not a bonus if you can hit your target (range medium laser without optimal bonus is cheat).

Your tanking now is really not good. Your speed and agility a joke. I prefere to loose 17 % of dps. But to have more range and more agility. Now this ship is a sentry without tanking and without range and without speed, without agility.

About increase capacitor, i prefere to be not cap stable and use cap booster, if i have some range. No this harbinger is not viable in pvp.

You can use is if somebody come in short range... no this is don't work too if it's small ship you don't have the tracking to kill them. if it's a BC size all have more ration dps tanking ...
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#653 - 2013-01-10 10:18:47 UTC
El'Kaniery wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
I have to laugh at people who say the harb got nerfed, they obviously didn't read the stats right.


Defend this statement.

Its both slower and harder to fit, and the damage increase wont be seen by anybody but the highest skilled players, so please tell me how having an extra flight of light drones is in any way a realistic buff? How and when in EVE does sensor strength matter when eveybody carries EC-300's which could care less what your sensor strength is? How does more lock range help a ship that can't really project damage past 20ish KM without being a glass tanked sniper? How does having a larger cargo bay make it better?

What, you think that the changed damage bonus matters that much? Nope, sorry, at BC4 its the same as it was before, at BC5 its stronger than it was but only marginally.

Slower, less hp, less fitting. That equals a nerf. Theres no solid argument for those changes to a platform that was always already super tight on fitting, slow, and usually light on hit points.

So I'll wait right here while you explain how it wasn't outright nerfed.



- It does more damage due to getting a better damage bonus
- it lost fitting but less than what a heavy pulse/beams needs so in effect it gained fitting
- it uses less cap for its weapons now (while doing more damage)
- it gained 25m3 meaning it can now be 5 light+5 medium (this is a huge increase, if you think otherwise you're wrong)
- yes it got a speed loss, a whopping 10 m/s on MWD, and while it's already too slow I'm not even going to bother/consider marginal stuff like that.

So yes it got buffed, and in an overall nerf for BCs that is HUGE.


Have one time fly a harbinger guy. I believe never ...

More damage is not a bonus if you can hit your target (range medium laser without optimal bonus is cheat).

Your tanking now is really not good. Your speed and agility a joke. I prefere to loose 17 % of dps. But to have more range and more agility. Now this ship is a sentry without tanking and without range and without speed, without agility.

About increase capacitor, i prefere to be not cap stable and use cap booster, if i have some range. No this harbinger is not viable in pvp.

You can use is if somebody come in short range... no this is don't work too if it's small ship you don't have the tracking to kill them. if it's a BC size all have more ration dps tanking ...


I'm probably not the only one to say "WHAT?"
Shrrrg
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#654 - 2013-01-10 10:36:47 UTC
Why all the hate against utility slots from you CCP?
We have seen it on the cruisers and now on the battlecruisers. Why
Also the extra Cpu on the Ferox is really interresting. You dont really need it. The only fitting where cpu was somewhat tight was a remote rep fit which you killed
Mund Richard
#655 - 2013-01-10 10:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Grath Telkin wrote:
Everybody that says this didnt notice the great big glaring hint about armor tanking changes on the first page of this thread.
Until glaring hints are in patchnotes already live on TQ, my ability to notice them is proportionately reduced by how likely they are to be implemented, and how much I like them and think it helps even out the playfield.
Currently: Likelyhood: 100% between now and the heat death of the universe.
How much I like it: 0%, can't like what I don't know. Yea, I don't like surprise parties as well. I'm such a person.
Once we know what happens with armor, we can bring them in into this debate, and... start all over? yay Roll
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
You want to use BEAMS on a ship that already suffers crippling fitting issues?
Cant believe I thumb up a PL dude.
Ganthrithor wrote:
I think you need to re-evaluate your approach. Stop pigeon-holing ships. Let Gallente ships continue to choose between armor and shield tanks. Stop stripping away utility highslots. Stop nerfing mobility on already-clumsy ships.
...and a Goon dude.
It's such a thread, ain't it? Roll
It get's "worse"! A Goon dude liked me!

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#656 - 2013-01-10 10:49:04 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Admit it, you want something other than rep bonus on your brutix just so you can shield fit it better and shoot null everywhere. Disgusting.



With 4 med slots and such a crap second bonus there's no much of a choice than shield fit it to make it look usefull for something another can do as well and even better.

Change this silly rep bonus for a +fall off or [whatever shït you can come with] will not change the fact as soon as you put a single plate on ti ti will still be using the shortest range weapon system and be slower.
In short, the stupid way to fit whatever Brutix before and after changes as they stand is to put a single armor mod on it.

That simple because active armor tanking is awful, badly designed on Gallente hulls and add insult to injury make almost as slow than Amarr but with 50% less range to your weapons.

But please be my guest to keep putting plates on your Brutix after changes with this ridiculous active rep bonus.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#657 - 2013-01-10 10:49:33 UTC
Give the harb a little more agility and speed if you're going to make the prophecy a legit brick boat. That way amarr are offered a genuine choice of playstyle. It makes no sense for both to have the same speed.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#658 - 2013-01-10 10:49:37 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
dexington wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Everybody here who like the drake say goodbye to it, it has now had its final hit with the nerf bat to oblivion.


Quit the whining, just because the drake no longer is the obvious choice for everything, does not mean it's not useful.


What would you use the drake for?



Same its used for now...

A cheap shield ship that gives good tank/gank for its price..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#659 - 2013-01-10 10:51:26 UTC
Generally like those changes. Was just a bit scared about the hurricane mass addition. Sounds to me as my brick'esquely aligning armorcane will now share more properties with a brick than before!

Aside that
+1 for missile cyclone
+1 for drone-prophecy, cause **** myrmidons
+1 for leaving the drake as it is, since we all need a bc to solo lvl4 missions aswell as people needing the ultimate answer to all pve-questions
+1 for many-turret-slots-ferox!

-1 for hurricane, the dualneuts and the 1600 plate was the main reason we've been flying it. Now it's all harbingers :( but
-1 for harbinger, how the hell do I fit that thing now?

Thank god they aren't nerfing the oracle and talos the same second :o
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#660 - 2013-01-10 10:52:22 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Everybody that says this didnt notice the great big glaring hint about armor tanking changes on the first page of this thread.
Until glaring hints are in patchnotes already live on TQ, my ability to notice them is proportionately reduced by how likely they are to be implemented, and how much I like them and think it helps even out the playfield.
Currently: Likelyhood: 100% between now and the heat death of the universe.
How much I like it: 0%, can't like what I don't know. Yea, I don't like surprise parties as well. I'm such a person.
Once we know what happens with armor, we can bring them in into this debate, and... start all over? yay Roll
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
You want to use BEAMS on a ship that already suffers crippling fitting issues?
Cant believe I thumb up a PL dude.
Ganthrithor wrote:
I think you need to re-evaluate your approach. Stop pigeon-holing ships. Let Gallente ships continue to choose between armor and shield tanks. Stop stripping away utility highslots. Stop nerfing mobility on already-clumsy ships.
...and a Goon dude.
It's such a thread, ain't it? Roll
It get's "worse"! Goon dude liked me!



If only Grath knew what he was talking about.


Lets just agree on one thing: Raivi isn't an idiot and while I don't necessarily agree with all the choices he makes and has made there's always logic&reason to his madness. The Harb got buffed, tremendously buffed in fact (given the overall nerf), the only real downside is a loss of speed/agility (but only a tiny one).

If Raivi makes a ship that's already slow as fck even slower that thus MUST mean there's a plate/armor rig change in the works which will more than make up for it. Stop being ****, stop being uninformed and stop whining like a 5 yearold.