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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#481 - 2013-01-09 20:06:14 UTC
My reactions (partly from a wormhole point of view)

1. I'm not a fan of losing "utility" high slots on Drakes and Hurricanes (and others). For what we do in C1-C3 wormholes, most newer folks we bring in start in battlecruisers. That's because they can fit a battlecruiser to have a decent chance for both PvP and sleepers, and still stick a probe launcher in that last high slot (or a salvager, or sometimes even a cloak). The T1 cruisers, while much more viable than previously, don't really have the tank totals to be able to stand up in wormholes unless you can deploy them in a fleet. It's a lot easier for newer players to jump into a battlecruiser to do this than to train into a T2 or T3 cruiser right off the bat. Plus, as someone else mentioned, what about the mindlinks for when off-grid boosting is no longer viable?

2. I always looked at the Brutix as being in between the Thorax and the Hyperion - or rather, it was supposed to be. Basically it seems like it wanted to be an in-your-face blaster boat like the other two are. It's hard to get it in that role though in its current form because of the speed. I'd be willing to trade that extra low slot for a MWD bonus or something....

3. Similarly, I look at the Myrmidon as a stepping stone between the Vexor and the Dominix (both drone boats). But as it stands now a Myrmidon doesn't really do much more damage than a Vexor, and as others have pointed out, turning the Prophecy into a drone boat actually makes the Myrmidon second-class in its current form. I'd say swap the armor repair bonus for a hybrid turret bonus of some kind.

4. With the advent of the Naga, I think the Ferox is better off as a more nimble mid-range gunnery platform. The tradeoff between the two should be that you get more damage and range with the Naga, but that you're slower and less maneuverable. I don't have stats handy to compare with what's posted above, but I think the ships may be too close together right now, which means the Ferox just gets eclipsed by its newer cousin.

5. Right now most hurricanes that we fly in wormholes (or that we run into) are set up for armor tank/autocannons unless the pilot is just going for a heavy sniping setup using artillery. This happens both because of the way that sleepers and sites work, where sniping is often impractical, and the way that wormhole PvP happens (usually close quarters fights). The cap change is going to severely hurt the viability of that setup. Can we look at either adding a mid slot to get a more viable shield tank on a 'cane, or adding an armor tank bonus of some kind to make up for the cap loss?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#482 - 2013-01-09 20:11:03 UTC
SMT008 wrote:

Yet, it's short 48 CPU and 264 PWG at All V.


I've kinda run into this myself. The DPS output is fine, if you can get it to fit...you get about 700 DPS to 9.7+8.2 with IN Multi or about 550 to 29+8 with Scorch (including the hammerheads). Unfortunately, it doesn't fit. The grid can be worked around if you're willing to downsize the plate to 800mm and drop the neut, but even doing that you're oversized on CPU.

Getting it to fit means no neut, 800mm plate and downsizing to Focused Medium Pulse Lasers (70 DPS sacrifice). Sure it works but "lets fit the smaller weapons" isn't something any of the other battlecruisers have to do to fit properly. And don't even start if you want to go with a beam sniper fit - if you don't use quad lights, you're gonna have trouble.

At the end of the day, the Harbinger's problem is that even the more, much-abused Hurricane is easier to fit.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Okuu Reiuji
PEETOOSHKEE PRIMARY OK
#483 - 2013-01-09 20:13:20 UTC
Poision Kevin wrote:
Why the F*** did you improve damage bonus and remove one gun of harby? Why not reduce bonus and keep 7 guns + 1 utility slot?

The one ship from Amarr that's been worth it's penny everytime I've used it is getting nerfed... **** I say, ****.


1 gun of 7 is ~14% of your damage, so you'll keep 86% of current damage AND add 25% of that - 107,5%, also with 14% less cap used to fire!
Great buff, isn't it?
Mund Richard
#484 - 2013-01-09 20:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Verran Skarne wrote:
My reactions (partly from a wormhole point of view)

1. I'm not a fan of losing "utility" high slots on Drakes and Hurricanes (and others).
2. I always looked at the Brutix as being in between the Thorax and the Hyperion - or rather, it was supposed to be
3. Similarly, I look at the Myrmidon as a stepping stone between the Vexor and the Dominix (both drone boats).
4. With the advent of the Naga, I think the Ferox is better off as a more nimble mid-range gunnery platform. The tradeoff between the two should be that you get more damage and range with the Naga, but that you're slower and less maneuverable. I don't have stats handy to compare with what's posted above, but I think the ships may be too close together right now, which means the Ferox just gets eclipsed by its newer cousin.

5. Right now most hurricanes that we fly in wormholes (or that we run into) are set up for armor tank/autocannons unless the pilot is just going for a heavy sniping setup using artillery. This happens both because of the way that sleepers and sites work, where sniping is often impractical, and the way that wormhole PvP happens (usually close quarters fights). The cap change is going to severely hurt the viability of that setup. Can we look at either adding a mid slot to get a more viable shield tank on a 'cane, or adding an armor tank bonus of some kind to make up for the cap loss?

1: yea, apart from the Harbi, you have to trade damage for the high (if lucky, unbonused ones), and the harbi has fitting issues, so the same deal.

2: more like between the Thorax and soon-to-be Mega (both with Attack role btw, unlike the Brutix with it's Combat...).
The Hyper with it's 5 mids is an excellent shield ship with 8 bonused guns (unlike the Rokh) for both brawl and snipe. Roll

3: With CCP insisting that drone boats have one slot less, it's problematic.
It has too many mid slots (thus not enough lows) for getting a proper tank, and using both DDAs and Magstabs, should it get a hybrid bonus.
Thorax vs Vexor the difference is one high, here also a low for a mid. Leads to issues.

4: So you want the Naga to be more cumbersome than a BC... Like a Battleship? Like a... Rokh? Roll
The only thing the Ferox really has going for it above the Naga is staying power, but usually staying power and nimbleness are kept away from each other.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Roosevelt Coltrane
Rupakaya
#485 - 2013-01-09 20:28:35 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Admit it, you want something other than rep bonus on your brutix just so you can shield fit it better and shoot null everywhere. Disgusting.


You say that like its a bad thing
Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#486 - 2013-01-09 20:30:11 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Verran Skarne wrote:
My reactions (partly from a wormhole point of view)

1. I'm not a fan of losing "utility" high slots on Drakes and Hurricanes (and others).
2. I always looked at the Brutix as being in between the Thorax and the Hyperion - or rather, it was supposed to be
3. Similarly, I look at the Myrmidon as a stepping stone between the Vexor and the Dominix (both drone boats).
4. With the advent of the Naga, I think the Ferox is better off as a more nimble mid-range gunnery platform. The tradeoff between the two should be that you get more damage and range with the Naga, but that you're slower and less maneuverable. I don't have stats handy to compare with what's posted above, but I think the ships may be too close together right now, which means the Ferox just gets eclipsed by its newer cousin.

5. Right now most hurricanes that we fly in wormholes (or that we run into) are set up for armor tank/autocannons unless the pilot is just going for a heavy sniping setup using artillery. This happens both because of the way that sleepers and sites work, where sniping is often impractical, and the way that wormhole PvP happens (usually close quarters fights). The cap change is going to severely hurt the viability of that setup. Can we look at either adding a mid slot to get a more viable shield tank on a 'cane, or adding an armor tank bonus of some kind to make up for the cap loss?

1: yea, apart from the Harbi, you have to trade damage for the high (if lucky, unbonused ones), and the harbi has fitting issues, so the same deal.

2: more like between the Thorax and Mega.
The Hyper with it's 5 mids is an excellent shield ship with 8 bonused guns (unlike the Rokh) for both brawl and snipe. Roll

3: With CCP insisting that drone boats have one slot less, it's problematic.
It has too many mid slots (thus not enough lows) for getting a proper tank, and using both DDAs and Magstabs, should it get a hybrid bonus.
Thorax vs Vexor the difference is one high, here also a low for a mid. Leads to issues.

4: So you want the naga to be cumbersome... Like a Battleship? Like a... Rokh? Roll
Whatever the Ferox does while sniping, it will get overshadowed in all but staying power.


An alternative would be to turn the Ferox into a blaster brawler - which would be pretty interesting, but it'd be a massive change. I did go look up stats on the Naga just now though and ouch, I didn't realize its mobility was so high already compared to the Ferox. No wonder no one really flies Feroxes anymore (especially not now that we have the Venture for gas mining)

As mentioned, doing most of my fighting in C1-C3 wormholes, I don't see sniping ships/setups getting used very much. Most of our combat ships either go for close-up brawling or mid-range speed tanking. YMMV though.

Good point on the Mega vs. the Hyperion.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#487 - 2013-01-09 20:32:21 UTC
BigSako wrote:
Why didn't you start your post with:

"Hi, my name is CCP Fozzie and I want to make sure that all the Battlecruisers that you are flying for large scaled PvP will have to be refitted!".


CCP, do you even think about the paper work for Alliances and FC when we have to change fittings for these battlecruisers every month?

I wasn't aware his job was to make yours easy.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#488 - 2013-01-09 20:33:51 UTC
Why is the harbinger, a laser ship, getting a huge nerf to its capacitor recharge rate? That seems a little counter productive.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#489 - 2013-01-09 20:36:52 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Poision Kevin wrote:
Why the F*** did you improve damage bonus and remove one gun of harby? Why not reduce bonus and keep 7 guns + 1 utility slot?

The one ship from Amarr that's been worth it's penny everytime I've used it is getting nerfed... **** I say, ****.


How exactly getting more DPS while keeping the utility slot is a nerf ?

Please explain me that.

Also Fozzie, in case you didn't saw it already, please, please buff the Harbingers' CPU. It's a MASSIVE issue, both on the current and the new Harbinger.

Fake EDIT :

Now that I made fits for all the new BCs on the modified EFT, please note that the Harbinger is severly lacking in both PWG and CPU.

My current Harbinger fit is this one :

Quote:
[NEW Harbinger, PVP - PulseFLeet]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Internal Force Field Array I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5


Biggest guns (It's a BC, it has to use the biggest medium guns available), T1 plate. Nothing really demanding fitted.

Yet, it's short 48 CPU and 264 PWG at All V.





Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.
I know, "Compromise" isn't an Amarrian word, but sometimes you just have to do it for better game balance.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Roosevelt Coltrane
Rupakaya
#490 - 2013-01-09 20:42:07 UTC
I have BC V and good drone skills, so this doesn't effect me, but where does a new Amarr pilot who specializes in drones (with a side dish of Missiles) go after the Prophecy?

Gallente pilots can go Domi>Navi Domi/Sin.

I like the Prophecy, don't change it, but I thought you wanted to make the game more new player friendly. What is the next step for a newish Amarr pilot?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#491 - 2013-01-09 20:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.
I know, "Compromise" isn't an Amarrian word, but sometimes you just have to do it for better game balance.


Drake should only be able to fit MSEs. LSEs are BS sized shield extenders after all.

Roosevelt Coltrane wrote:
I have BC V and good drone skills, so this doesn't effect me, but where does a new Amarr pilot who specializes in drones (with a side dish of Missiles) go after the Prophecy?


Geddon?

This could also be a good time to give us Khanid BS with torp bonus (of course using Abaddon hull).
Mund Richard
#492 - 2013-01-09 20:46:25 UTC
Verran Skarne wrote:
An alternative would be to turn the Ferox into a blaster brawler - which would be pretty interesting, but it'd be a massive change. I did go look up stats on the Naga just now though and ouch, I didn't realize its mobility was so high already compared to the Ferox. No wonder no one really flies Feroxes anymore (especially not now that we have the Venture for gas mining)

Not really. The Caldari sniper frigate (Merling) and cruiser(Moa) were also trading their underused optimal range bonus into a damage one, and it seems to work fine.

Let me go differently about it.
The Harbringer has 9 turret's worth of damage.
The Cane has 6*1,25/0,75= 10 turret's worth of damage? Is that really so? Didn't I make a mistake here?
The Ferox currently has 7 unbonused ones (fitting/cap burden).

Even if it had a damage bonus, it wouldn't be too bad off, since rails have a superb range already.

For comparison, the Naga has 8 damage AND optimal bonused turrets.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#493 - 2013-01-09 20:47:12 UTC
Roosevelt Coltrane wrote:
I have BC V and good drone skills, so this doesn't effect me, but where does a new Amarr pilot who specializes in drones (with a side dish of Missiles) go after the Prophecy?

Gallente pilots can go Domi>Navi Domi/Sin.

I like the Prophecy, don't change it, but I thought you wanted to make the game more new player friendly. What is the next step for a newish Amarr pilot?


Armageddon I'd say.
Considering that the NavyGeddon already has a huge dronebay and bandwidth, I suppose they increse the drone capacity of the standard Geddon, too when the battleships are due for tiericide.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Mund Richard
#494 - 2013-01-09 20:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.
I know, "Compromise" isn't an Amarrian word, but sometimes you just have to do it for better game balance.

Drake should only be able to fit MSEs. LSEs are BS sized shield extenders after all.?

Drake and MSE... So 800 plate shouldn't be possible to fit on BCs as well? Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#495 - 2013-01-09 20:49:54 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.
I know, "Compromise" isn't an Amarrian word, but sometimes you just have to do it for better game balance.


Drake should only be able to fit MSEs. LSEs are BS sized shield extenders after all.


T2 LSE has 2625 shield bonus base. T2 800m plate has 2103 armor bonus base. T2 1600m plate has 4200 armor bonus base.

Read -> Math -> Post
Krasniy Okytabre
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#496 - 2013-01-09 20:53:00 UTC
Changing the cyclone to a missile boat wouldn't be a good idea IMO, us minmatar pilots like our guns. If we wanted missiles wed have trained caldari. Leave it's bonuses alone.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#497 - 2013-01-09 20:53:34 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:

Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.


No.

With a 800mm plate, you're still short 48 CPU, and you still need a 3% PWG implant.

That's not what I call "It fits perfectly".

Also, please note that both Projectiles and Hybrids have 3 variants for each weapon-size. Lasers only have 2, which means you are forced to downgrade to the smallest guns instead of being able to tweak it with 220mm like you can do on the Hurricane.

I understand that not everything will fit on a Harbinger. But it NEEDS to PWG to support the biggest guns, 1600mm plate and a MWD.

It's an Amarrian ship, designed to sport armor plates. How come it can't fit the plate it's supposed to ? The Prophecy does it, can fit his utility slot and has even 100 spare PWG.

That's just not how it's supposed to be.

The Harbinger needs a CPU boost (VERY IMPORTANT) and a PWG boost.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#498 - 2013-01-09 20:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Zimmy Zeta wrote:


Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.
I know, "Compromise" isn't an Amarrian word, but sometimes you just have to do it for better game balance.


That's the problem though. As I said above, even if you drop the plate to 800mm and cut the neut out entirely, your still 27 CPU over. The fitting problem isn't new either, the current harb fit the same way runs into it as well. It'd be much better if they still removed the turret, but left the CPU at its old numbers.


And as a different aside, a Ferox with a damage bonus in place of the resist bonus would do ~690 DPS (guns+drones) with Null out to 12+14km, or 920 dps (guns+drones) to 6.6+5.1 with Void, all while keeping a 60k EHP buffer. It'd basically be the love-child of a drake and a max-gank Brutix, and probably be a little too good.

SMT008 wrote:

It's an Amarrian ship, designed to sport armor plates. How come it can't fit the plate it's supposed to ? The Prophecy does it, can fit his utility slot and has even 100 spare PWG.

That's because the prophecy uses fewer highslot weapons in favor of Drones. IMO PG can be compromised a little, but the CPU is a huge deal breaker.

Edward Pierce wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.
I know, "Compromise" isn't an Amarrian word, but sometimes you just have to do it for better game balance.


Drake should only be able to fit MSEs. LSEs are BS sized shield extenders after all.


T2 LSE has 2625 shield bonus base. T2 800m plate has 2103 armor bonus base. T2 1600m plate has 4200 armor bonus base.

Read -> Math -> Post

The T2 LSE also offers a fairly non-trivial boost to shield recharge and thus passive tank, so comparing it directly to an 800mm plate isn't entirely fair.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#499 - 2013-01-09 20:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
Okuu Reiuji wrote:
Poision Kevin wrote:
Why the F*** did you improve damage bonus and remove one gun of harby? Why not reduce bonus and keep 7 guns + 1 utility slot?

The one ship from Amarr that's been worth it's penny everytime I've used it is getting nerfed... **** I say, ****.


1 gun of 7 is ~14% of your damage, so you'll keep 86% of current damage AND add 25% of that - 107,5%, also with 14% less cap used to fire!
Great buff, isn't it?


Excuse me but they are nerfing the cap recharge too.
Acording to pyfa, with those changes my Harb will win 15 dps, and +1Gj/sec.
Oh and, hey, it's only losing a 10% of it's hp, who cares? 'Great' change.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#500 - 2013-01-09 20:56:19 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Biggest Guns + battleship-sized plate.
I think it's great that the Harbi can fit either of them and it's fine that it cannot fit both. Go with a 800 mm plate if you want to go full dps and everything should fit perfectly.
I know, "Compromise" isn't an Amarrian word, but sometimes you just have to do it for better game balance.


Drake should only be able to fit MSEs. LSEs are BS sized shield extenders after all.


T2 LSE has 2625 shield bonus base. T2 800m plate has 2103 armor bonus base. T2 1600m plate has 4200 armor bonus base.

Read -> Math -> Post


Large shield extender
Large

Large = BS sized