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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Mire Stoude
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#421 - 2013-01-09 17:44:06 UTC
Can you please take away the armor repair bonus of the brutix and give it something else? Nobody armor tanks a brutix.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#422 - 2013-01-09 17:46:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Exterminatus Illexis
Jenn aSide wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But Fozzie, 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount on both Gallente Battlecruisers?? But we all know how much active armor tanking sucks!! Whatever will you do about this dilemma..... Twisted


Until they make these bonuses apply on all reps (remote reps too), the rep bonus will always be inferior to the passive tank since it can't scale in gangs.


Rather than rep bonus, I'd rather see "armor amount" bonuses . you're right, without the bonus applying to incoming remote reps, it doesn't scale, where as armor amount bonus would be on par with armor resistance bonuses.


I can't tell if that's stupidity or you're actually oblivious.

A single augoror with 3 reps can RR 800dps

A Myrmidon with 2 local can rep 340 ish as a norm.

that's 1140 dps tanked right there if you include local ability. Not only that an augoror can switch to combat cap teammates, meaning that the Myrm can perma run its local reppers.

Now if you have two augorors, that's 1940 dps tanked. Three, that's 3740. Four, that's 4040.

Math, use it.


Someone has never ever been in a fleet fight I see. How good is that local rep when you are MWDing and getting neuted? Do you even understand why active tanks (of either kind) aren't used in fleet engagements at all?

Wow, 1940 dps, thats like what 4 or 5 fleet abaddons worth of dps! , so it only takes 3 ships and a local rep to tank 4-5 ships when the FLLEt your fighting has about 50 of them.

Brilliant.

Amount and resistance bonuses are the fleet fight bonuses, the discussion was about making more BCs useful to fleets, active tanking is and has always been useless in fleet warfare.



In a fleet scenario, yeah the active rep bonus is pretty useless. The area that I was pointing out was more of a small gang scenario.

The Myrmidon however can get a universal 60%+ on its resists fit right, and in a fleet you'd have guardians which can rep around twice as much also a lot more of them. Without combat caps usually since they need those to counter neuts within their chain.

Gallente I feel is much more at home for solo/small gang engagements than fleet fights(mostly because they have no range at all ever always). Amarr doctrines are TOTALLY NOT COMMON HAHAHAHA.(Hell cat, panic geddon, abaddons. There's totally not permaburning zealot fleets either. Or legions. Also pulse lasers are definitely not amazing for damage projection with that huge optimal.)

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Mund Richard
#423 - 2013-01-09 17:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
In a fleet scenario, yeah the active rep bonus is pretty useless. The area that I was pointing out was more of a small gang scenario.

The Myrmidon however can get a universal 60%+ on its resists fit right, and in a fleet you'd have guardians which can rep around twice as much also a lot more of them. Without combat caps usually since they need those to counter neuts within their chain.
Mhm, small gang with 4 logis having spare time to rep you, because you are primary over them, or any other fleetmate of yours.
Mhm.

And you still haven't mentioned anything the Prophecy doesn't do better (maybe except become a primary).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Taritura
Achozen Dueces TecH
#424 - 2013-01-09 17:52:10 UTC
I don't know what you smoke but making cyclone a missile boat is a sick ........
Doddy
Excidium.
#425 - 2013-01-09 17:52:41 UTC
These changes are generally good but you really need to accept you killed the ferox's sniper role when you made the naga and just give it the damage bonus already. Also one of a races ships having an active bonus is fine, both is limiting. Give the brutix a tracking bonus instead. The harbinger buff, new prophecy and new cyclone all look good though.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#426 - 2013-01-09 17:57:02 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
In a fleet scenario, yeah the active rep bonus is pretty useless. The area that I was pointing out was more of a small gang scenario.

The Myrmidon however can get a universal 60%+ on its resists fit right, and in a fleet you'd have guardians which can rep around twice as much also a lot more of them. Without combat caps usually since they need those to counter neuts within their chain.
Mhm, small gang with 4 logis having spare time to rep you, because you are primary over them, or any other fleetmate of yours.
Mhm.

And you still haven't mentioned anything the Prophecy doesn't do better.


This is why I am advocating the Prophecy getting nerfed rather than buffed. If you look about two pages back I've made a post on that.

And yeah, a myrmidon being primary over some logi's isn't terribly likely. Unless the opposing FC is ********, which is often the case these days.

Basically yeah, Nerf the proph a bit. Give it EM damage bonuses so that, like said before, it isn't super overpowered. Nerf its tank to get it in line with the Drake.

Also slaves.
I shouldn't need to say more than that.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Korsanz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#427 - 2013-01-09 17:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Korsanz
Sup with mr Fozzie making all gallente ships totally useless? Why put crappy repper bonuses on every gallente ship when it kinda sucks for fleets?

And giving them structure and removing armor.. Is this guy a Dev or just a blonde joke?
fenistil
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2013-01-09 18:02:52 UTC
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75

.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#429 - 2013-01-09 18:06:13 UTC
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
In a fleet scenario, yeah the active rep bonus is pretty useless. The area that I was pointing out was more of a small gang scenario.

The Myrmidon however can get a universal 60%+ on its resists fit right, and in a fleet you'd have guardians which can rep around twice as much also a lot more of them. Without combat caps usually since they need those to counter neuts within their chain.
Mhm, small gang with 4 logis having spare time to rep you, because you are primary over them, or any other fleetmate of yours.
Mhm.

And you still haven't mentioned anything the Prophecy doesn't do better.


This is why I am advocating the Prophecy getting nerfed rather than buffed. If you look about two pages back I've made a post on that.

And yeah, a myrmidon being primary over some logi's isn't terribly likely. Unless the opposing FC is ********, which is often the case these days.

Basically yeah, Nerf the proph a bit. Give it EM damage bonuses so that, like said before, it isn't super overpowered. Nerf its tank to get it in line with the Drake.

Also slaves.
I shouldn't need to say more than that.


Leave the prophecy. Its now a ship you need a brain to fly (monitor your drones, monitor your weapons, rechange ammo and change drones when the damage type changes, etc). You cannot directly compare the Myrmidon to the Prophecy. Different ships that do different things, and we are all theorizing here at the moment. We'll know more once we fly them.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#430 - 2013-01-09 18:06:14 UTC
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75



Funny seeing you here Fen, but the track they were taking with the ships was that Gallente could put out bigger and more drones while Amarr could put out more replacements but not as large. I'm a heavy advocate of the Brutix being able to carry a flight of lights, because as is the thing is vulnerable to... every kiting ship out there.

Basically
Amarr = Redundancy
Gallente = facepunchingmachine

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Mund Richard
#431 - 2013-01-09 18:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
fenistil wrote:
What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.

It's the same deal as with the new destroyers and the drone cruisers were always like that (well, maybe not THIS sharply)...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#432 - 2013-01-09 18:09:03 UTC
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75



Funny seeing you here Fen, but the track they were taking with the ships was that Gallente could put out bigger and more drones while Amarr could put out more replacements but not as large. I'm a heavy advocate of the Brutix being able to carry a flight of lights, because as is the thing is vulnerable to... every kiting ship out there.

Basically
Amarr = Redundancy
Gallente = facepunchingmachine


.... this is true and makes sense.

ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75
4LeafClover
ONTAP
Goonswarm Federation
#433 - 2013-01-09 18:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: 4LeafClover
So you have a 5 bay Cyclone with a 5% ROF bonus....Why would anyone choose to fly that over a 7 bay Drake? Maybe CCP is hoping that racial allegiance is stronger than simple math?

Two extra turrets more than makes up for a 5% ROF bonus....plus you have the luxury of actually being able to fit a substantial tank on the Drake. For a shield tanking ship you need Midslots, the Cyclone has one fewer than the Drake.

Not to mention if you want to solo in this ship, where would you put scram and web? Basically solo pvp is out of the question. CCP why are you so intent on pigeonholing every ship in EVE into what YOU choose? Why not give us the flexability to decide for ourselves?

CCP, here was your promise when you introduced these changes:

Quote:
"As usual, we would like to keep up with the ship line classification we have been using for frigate, destroyer and cruisers so far. This is not designed to arbitrarily pigeon-hole vessels into narrow roles, but to provide a basic line of operation for anyone to understand and follow through. The ship role and purpose on the battlefield will still greatly be influenced by the choice of modules, rigs and ammunitions you make." http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530


Now it seems that is exactly what you are trying to do....pigeon-hole vessels into narrow roles. If you remove the ability for ships to fit, various mods, rigs and ammunitions due to capacitor and/or powergrid reductions.
Doddy
Excidium.
#434 - 2013-01-09 18:11:33 UTC
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75


No, it is one of the drone races, there have been two since RMR.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#435 - 2013-01-09 18:18:11 UTC
Tennessee Jack wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75



Funny seeing you here Fen, but the track they were taking with the ships was that Gallente could put out bigger and more drones while Amarr could put out more replacements but not as large. I'm a heavy advocate of the Brutix being able to carry a flight of lights, because as is the thing is vulnerable to... every kiting ship out there.

Basically
Amarr = Redundancy
Gallente = facepunchingmachine


.... this is true and makes sense.

ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75


Harb needs it waaaaay more.. it has loltracking

a flight of lights wont save you from a kiting frig anyways.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Random McNally
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#436 - 2013-01-09 18:18:41 UTC
Kind of disappointed with the proposal for the Ferox. Haven't flown one in a while because it was kind of crap. If the proposed changes go through, they'll still be kind of crap.

Doesn't it make more sense to send the Ferox down the line of the Caldari brawlers (i.e. Merlin/Moa)? You are planning on giving it shield resist bonuses so it would behoove it to give it a damage bonus and make it a close range scrapper.

Host of High Drag Podcast. http://highdrag.wordpress.com/

Space music http://minddivided.com

I G Channel HighDragChat

Broadcast4Reps
4LeafClover
ONTAP
Goonswarm Federation
#437 - 2013-01-09 18:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: 4LeafClover
CCP wrote:
"As usual, we would like to keep up with the ship line classification we have been using for frigate, destroyer and cruisers so far. This is not designed to arbitrarily pigeon-hole vessels into narrow roles, but to provide a basic line of operation for anyone to understand and follow through. The ship role and purpose on the battlefield will still greatly be influenced by the choice of modules, rigs and ammunitions you make." http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530


Also what EVE pilot buys a ship contemplating the "basic line of operation"? This may be something that old bitter vets pontificate about, but for a new capsuleer, all they are worried about is which ship will allow me to spew death, and survive as long as I can? 99.9% of EVE pilots could give a rats behind about your "basic line of operation...that pilots can understand and follow"..... ugh really? Quit forcing your players to acquiesce to your view of how things should be done.


Yes I am bitter about the changes made to the Hurricane.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#438 - 2013-01-09 18:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
A Ferox with optimal and resist bonuses is hopelessly obsoleted by the Naga. But giving it damage instead of optimal means that it'll have the same bonuses as the Moa - instead making the Moa hopelessly obsolete as the Ferox effectively becomes a high-tier cruiser, expressly counter to the principle of tiericide.

Good luck solving that conundrum. Switching the Moa to optimal and damage is about the only solution I can think of, and even that doesn't sound very attractive.

Well, nerfing the t3s into the ground might work too.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#439 - 2013-01-09 18:20:45 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tennessee Jack wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75



Funny seeing you here Fen, but the track they were taking with the ships was that Gallente could put out bigger and more drones while Amarr could put out more replacements but not as large. I'm a heavy advocate of the Brutix being able to carry a flight of lights, because as is the thing is vulnerable to... every kiting ship out there.

Basically
Amarr = Redundancy
Gallente = facepunchingmachine


.... this is true and makes sense.

ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75


Harb needs it waaaaay more.. it has loltracking

a flight of lights wont save you from a kiting frig anyways.


No but it might make them pull a bit more range so you can sling them and then murderfuckize them.

I think the brutix should either have 75mb/s with a 75m^3 bay to focus on drone dps or modularity with. The harb should have 50mb/s with a 75^3 drone bay so it can carry a flight of lights but not use it for a heavy dps source or something.

Requires more math. I'll do it later.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#440 - 2013-01-09 18:24:29 UTC
Please give the Projectile Bonus back to the Clone and exchange both Hurricane Bonuses with Missile crap.
I think we all read now that u want the old hurricane dead, so at least make something useful/different out of it.