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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

First post
Author
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#21 - 2013-01-30 20:25:39 UTC
To clarify, that was sarcasm. I wish I could be more directly critical about this, but you are too emotionally attached to the idea to conceive of downsides, let alone the possibility that it's a terrible idea overall, so it's more fun to criticise in a mocking way and at least derive some entertainment from this thread.

Pointing a gun at people may make them uncomfortable. Hiding the gun because people keep complaining that they're having a gun pointed at them and they can't do anything about it is not a solution at all.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#22 - 2013-01-30 20:30:03 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
Oh, man, I'm so going to take up cloaky ganking now...

Targets won't see me in local until I decloak on grid with them and slap a disruptor on them? Utterly brilliant. Having to chase them around the system is so much work.

Not to mention, how can any defensive fleet ever find me, if they can't see me? I could cloaky cyno in a gang of my friends without anyone having any warning whatsoever and gank even moderate fleets who have no chance of ever having a shred of intel on what's coming. Ever.

Admittedly, this may empty nullsec as people decide that there's no point risking anything given the impunity with which they can be attacked. The only people that will be left will be big alliances that have the acitivty to fly in permanent, large gangs that can fend off such attacks, but that's the way nullsec's been going for a while- nobody gives a crap about small gangs. They belong in hisec running incursions.

Oh, and I'm sure people would whine about it to no end. Can't people adapt by always selecting the incredibly overpowered option rather than insisting that a game should be 'balanced'?

I hit LIKE on your post. I appreciate you raising these points so I may address them better.

1. These targets, the ones who did not see you till you appeared on grid with them? Enjoy the kill mails, assuming it was not a set up designed to lure you. After all, they have an unknown number of ships cloaked too.
One of the fundamentals is that detection of cloaked vessels is balanced without local exposing them for no effort. With the ability to clean the system of cloaked vessels, comes the responsibility for keeping it clean.

2. Finding you: that coffin has the nails in it from the first point. We can dismiss this concern as DoA for that reason.

3. Emptying null sec. Give me a moment to savor this talking point.... done.
I don't think anyone will notice. After all, what is the difference between:
*A. Pilots who refuse to PvP, and stay hidden in POS's or outposts, or simply log off.
*B. Pilots who moved to high sec.

Honestly, the ones who moved to high sec will possibly see more PvP than they did before moving.

4. Balance or the incredibly overpowered option? Well, Local Chat's ability to perfectly update the presence of all pilots has been described by many as being incredibly OP....
While, oddly enough, noone has ever lost a ship to a pilot who was AFK cloaking, so it becomes awkward trying to call that equally OP....
Admittedly, some are reported to have stopped being AFK at very inconvenient times. The pilots who chose, of their own free will, to venture forth may have suffered losses.

My condolences, I hope the ship was insured.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-01-31 00:21:29 UTC
This really would be for the best.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#24 - 2013-01-31 01:29:29 UTC
ive never put as many likes in a thread as i have this.

Jessica Danikov wrote:

Not to mention, how can any defensive fleet ever find me, if they can't see me? I could cloaky cyno in a gang of my friends without anyone having any warning whatsoever and gank even moderate fleets who have no chance of ever having a shred of intel on what's coming. Ever.

cloaky fleets carry less combat power than comparable non-cloaky fleets. so its balanced. and if ur talking about blobbing enemy fleets with cloakies, how would that be any worse than blobbing them with the same number of non-cloakies?

Jessica Danikov wrote:

Admittedly, this may empty nullsec as people decide that there's no point risking anything given the impunity with which they can be attacked. The only people that will be left will be big alliances that have the acitivty to fly in permanent, large gangs that can fend off such attacks, but that's the way nullsec's been going for a while- nobody gives a crap about small gangs. They belong in hisec running incursions.


didnt u just say ur gang would gank even moderate fleets? i'd say this empowers the smaller gangs that can prepare an ambush against the larger blobs without being obvious in local. and anyone who wants to roam in null isn't immediately obvious to the defending blobbers.

Jessica Danikov wrote:

Oh, and I'm sure people would whine about it to no end. Can't people adapt by always selecting the incredibly overpowered option rather than insisting that a game should be 'balanced'?

they did, and it was called 'afk cloaking', the most popular PvP strategy in the world. never has so much love come from such a brilliant idea.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#25 - 2013-01-31 02:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffy Sheep
Quote:
Cloaking, at least the process leading up to the ship itself being cloaked, requires effort along with the right skills and hardware.


Electronics lvl 4 & cloaking lvl 1 for basic use of an item that can make you unscannable & therefore untouchable? Sure it may be in a near useless paper bag low tech frigate, but it may be in something else as well. There's no way to find out until they uncloak is there.

Let there be cloaking, but don't let it be absolute as it is now. It should take some effort to stay hidden, just as it should take some effort to find someone hidden. As it is, There is little to no effort to stay hidden AFK or active and no way to find them if they are either of those two.

How about CCP make mining barges 100% invulnerable and unbumpable except for when they are moving or entering warp? They can then do what they do afk or active and only have a chance of being vulnerable at a time and to whom they choose. A bit like cloaking results but a lot more training & skill involved ;P
Mag's
Azn Empire
#26 - 2013-01-31 05:47:21 UTC
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
Quote:
Cloaking, at least the process leading up to the ship itself being cloaked, requires effort along with the right skills and hardware.


Electronics lvl 4 & cloaking lvl 1 for basic use of an item that can make you unscannable & therefore untouchable? Sure it may be in a near useless paper bag low tech frigate, but it may be in something else as well. There's no way to find out until they uncloak is there.

Let there be cloaking, but don't let it be absolute as it is now. It should take some effort to stay hidden, just as it should take some effort to find someone hidden. As it is, There is little to no effort to stay hidden AFK or active and no way to find them if they are either of those two.

How about CCP make mining barges 100% invulnerable and unbumpable except for when they are moving or entering warp? They can then do what they do afk or active and only have a chance of being vulnerable at a time and to whom they choose. A bit like cloaking results but a lot more training & skill involved ;P
No skill required at all for the basic use of an item, that can make you unscannable & therefore untouchable? Sure they may only have a newb ship, but it may be something else instead. there's no way to find out, until they undock.

Let there be docking, but don't let it be absolute as it is now. It should take some effort to stay docked, just as it should take effort to undock someone. As it is, there is no effort at all in staying docked and hidden AFK or active and no way to know if they are AFK or active.

How about CCP making mining barges 100% undockable and only able to mine trit. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-01-31 06:40:21 UTC
This thread makes it seem like local is supposed to be an intel gathering tool. It's not - in fact, in an ideal situation, you'd only know a ship is there if you'd have sensors located throughout the system and a cloak would severely limit your ability to detect the ship using it. In a way, afk cloaking is desireable, because it ensures that you're not absolutely sure if the enemy is actually there.

Personally, I'm more of a fan to the "space terrain" idea, where it would be possible to enter and live in a system undetected for a prolonged period of time, similar to how wormholes work, where actions left a sort of "information polution" that would eventually reveal them and where cloaked ships would be detectable using specialized equipment, since - as someone put it - you're never supposed to be completely safe undocked. However, I'm against nerfing cloaking without also limiting intel gathering in local, because the same argument holds for mission runners and miners - you should never feel completely safe undocked, using intel to bail or remove a perceived threat.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
Train Wreck.
#28 - 2013-01-31 07:05:12 UTC
Boohoo whine post about my bots and Bears not being able to farm isk 24/7, cry cry cry.

The only thing local needs is for it to be removed like in wh unless people wish to be visible in local channel via a transponder switch attachted to the new safety.
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-01-31 09:01:18 UTC
+1 like the idea

And pose this question:

If a ship can be cloaked beside you and you don't even know it's on grid. Why should you know it's in system?

...

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#30 - 2013-01-31 10:07:23 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present.



Nick, I really like your idea.

Delayed local for the the above situations and any ship cloaked. Solves the problem of nullbears being too scared of an AFK cloaker.

Denies the active cloaker from knowing if there is a whole bunch of people waiting in a station ready to undock and protect their mining buddies.

He could go and visit (cloaked) any POSs to see if people were there, but he would have to activly fly to them to 'see' if people were there. (have to do something with DScan on POSs for this????)

This has to be one of the best AFK cloaking ideas I have seen.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-01-31 10:11:56 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:

He could go and visit (cloaked) any POSs to see if people were there, but he would have to activly fly to them to 'see' if people were there. (have to do something with DScan on POSs for this????)


No he shouldn't :/ DScan should be unchanged and still work as it currently does. This is about local chat.

...

Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-01-31 10:27:36 UTC
Nah. Just add a right-click menu feature for each and every entry in local that is available at all times, to anyone else in the same local channel: Warp To. Problem solved.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#33 - 2013-01-31 12:10:32 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Let's add

Vessels docked at a station

to this and make it work throughout all of EVE.

Remove standings and insurance.

Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#34 - 2013-01-31 13:08:13 UTC
I like the idea because it is a fair game. The cloaky guy doesn't get intel updates via local while cloaked. So he either has to move around and d-scan or get peoples onto his grid to find them or, he just uncloaks for 5 seconds to get an update via local. This then gives the attentive obeserver a chance to get notice of his presence.

I also like the fact that the same mechanics will be applied on people sitting in POS or station. However, with regards to stations you have to add something. Currently you can't d-scan nor see the local grid while docked in a station. This has to change then. When docked in a station you should be able to see the local grid outside the station and you should be able to run a d-scan.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#35 - 2013-01-31 16:14:19 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Let's add

Vessels docked at a station

to this and make it work throughout all of EVE.

Absolutely agree.

That said, I used the term Outpost for this, since POS means Player Owned Station to many players.
(I was trying to avoid confusion)

Big smile
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#36 - 2013-01-31 16:17:30 UTC
Meditril wrote:
I like the idea because it is a fair game. The cloaky guy doesn't get intel updates via local while cloaked. So he either has to move around and d-scan or get peoples onto his grid to find them or, he just uncloaks for 5 seconds to get an update via local. This then gives the attentive obeserver a chance to get notice of his presence.

I also like the fact that the same mechanics will be applied on people sitting in POS or station. However, with regards to stations you have to add something. Currently you can't d-scan nor see the local grid while docked in a station. This has to change then. When docked in a station you should be able to see the local grid outside the station and you should be able to run a d-scan.

Ahh, this is a station balance idea.

I also agree, but I refer to it more as the window theory, as in you should be able to look out a window and see who is outside.

The local grid should of course be available. It is a balance issue whether stations owned by friendly corps should permit sharing of their sensors to see more, I won't touch that here.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#37 - 2013-02-01 11:59:56 UTC
i like the OP idea a lot. it is a good compromise between no local (WH style) and intel-local (currently 0.0).
especially the integration of outposts/stations and POSs is fair. this also mean beeing the stealthy cov-ops guy requires more prowling then it does now.

one question, upon entering a system, should the gate cloak be handeled as "normally" cloaked and thereby local is delayed?
or should it stay the way it is now?
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-02-01 14:28:43 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

one question, upon entering a system, should the gate cloak be handeled as "normally" cloaked and thereby local is delayed?
or should it stay the way it is now?


my opinion is gate cloak should work same as cloaked.

When you jump in, you don't show in local, can't see local, you have dscan and whats on grid.

You'd 'blip' in local when you align/warp and recloak again though.

...

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-02-01 15:01:04 UTC
I consider Local as channel that one enters, because you use the Jumpgate, undock from a station (as a ship would contact the channel of the bridge guard, Harbor master) So what you after isn't realy important, Gate log, shows you went in and that you didn't went out. Station log shows you undocked.

This would leave cyno and WH travelers from local (people ho logged out in space, but entered though a gate/undocked a station should re-enter the local channel when relogging.

Although I think this is how local should be treated I understand it would seem to work arround the fact that people leave a system through a Cyno or WH, will need to exit local or it will become a mess. (might be by losing conection to the channel by means of distance)

but I think this is how a local channel should work. anyone in system should still be able to contact the local channel ofcourse even i he's docked or entered through other means.

Even better if you could acces the jumpgate/station log to see who went through today and at what time with what ship, be legal and or illigal means, makes those objects less static and more then just a door to the next system.



Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#40 - 2013-02-01 15:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
TheSkeptic wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

one question, upon entering a system, should the gate cloak be handeled as "normally" cloaked and thereby local is delayed?
or should it stay the way it is now?


my opinion is gate cloak should work same as cloaked.

When you jump in, you don't show in local, can't see local, you have dscan and whats on grid.

You'd 'blip' in local when you align/warp and recloak again though.

This.

My opinion on the gate cloak effect, is that it is intended to give a player changing systems time to have their client load everything, and bring them current on their new circumstances.

No, they should be denied local for the same reason they should not be seen in local.
In my view, this grace time should not be a one sided affair. They should have their overview for items on grid as normal, but local chat should be mutually blocked for them.

Noone knows who jumped in, and they can only see the local grid for decision making.