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Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

First post
Author
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#41 - 2013-02-01 15:56:35 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
TheSkeptic wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

one question, upon entering a system, should the gate cloak be handeled as "normally" cloaked and thereby local is delayed?
or should it stay the way it is now?


my opinion is gate cloak should work same as cloaked.

When you jump in, you don't show in local, can't see local, you have dscan and whats on grid.

You'd 'blip' in local when you align/warp and recloak again though.

This.

My opinion on the gate cloak effect, is that it is intended to give a player changing systems time to have their client load everything, and bring them current on their new circumstances.

No, they should be denied local for the same reason they should not be seen in local.
In my view, this grace time should not be a one sided affair. They should have their overview for items on grid as normal, but local chat should be mutually blocked for them.

Noone knows who jumped in, and they can only see the local grid for decision making.


sounds reasonable enough for me.
however, should a cloak-counter scanner ever be implemented into the game, gate-cloak should be immune to it. to grant the grace period for getting your act together.
Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#42 - 2013-02-01 19:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffy Sheep
When people ask for the ability to scan cloaked ships, they aren't asking for an easy instant find option. So it wouldn't effect someone at the gate anyway.

If a cloaky is active and aware of their surroundings, they should be damn hard to find and / or track down let alone catch. If AFK however, it should be readily doable i.e. away from the computer all together leaving the ship motionless or burning in one constant direction for long periods of time etc.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#43 - 2013-02-01 20:04:11 UTC
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
When people ask for the ability to scan cloaked ships, they aren't asking for an easy instant find option. So it wouldn't effect someone at the gate anyway.

If a cloaky is active and aware of their surroundings, they should be damn hard to find and / or track down let alone catch. If AFK however, it should be readily doable i.e. away from the computer all together leaving the ship motionless or burning in one constant direction for long periods of time etc.

Absolutely.

Anyone choosing to go AFK in space better be right about being safe, because they are certainly gambling their ship and clone on it.

That said, knowing they were present to be found in the first place would also take deliberate effort. After all, local won't be mentioning them. They can't target or fire on anyone, as stated in the OP, and thus are not listed.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#44 - 2013-02-01 20:08:18 UTC
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
When people ask for the ability to scan cloaked ships, they aren't asking for an easy instant find option. So it wouldn't effect someone at the gate anyway.

If a cloaky is active and aware of their surroundings, they should be damn hard to find and / or track down let alone catch. If AFK however, it should be readily doable i.e. away from the computer all together leaving the ship motionless or burning in one constant direction for long periods of time etc.
Easy find, depends on the mechanic asked for. But they do ask for yet more intel, without sacrificing any of that easy mode local intel.

You should not nerf cloaks, until local intel on a plate is changed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#45 - 2013-02-01 23:29:07 UTC
Mag's wrote:
(...)
You should not nerf cloaks, until local intel on a plate is changed.

thats, what the thread is about.
Mire Stoude
S0utherN Comfort
#46 - 2013-02-02 01:39:06 UTC
Please CCP embrace a brave new world and nerf Local. Also remove all map tools that indicate the amount of people in a system and stats that hint at what they are doing (seems like a fair compromise). Constellation chat (on delayed mode) would allow people to chat. All information on enemy movements would have to be obtained by scouts and spies.

Do this and finally put an end to AFK Cloaking posts, please.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#47 - 2013-02-02 07:28:52 UTC
I have no opposing thought here. I do question what will become of those who are in stations; will they have their own chat channel for the station? This might actually be good when walking in stations finally arrives.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-02-02 08:03:10 UTC
Why not simply eliminate local's intel-gathering capability altogether? Have the same sort of delayed chat system that already exists in WH space. It would mean that people will have to learn to watch d-scan, but it would make PvP roaming in nullsec a lot more fun because people don't know the instant that you come into system.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-02-02 08:48:33 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Why not simply eliminate local's intel-gathering capability altogether? Have the same sort of delayed chat system that already exists in WH space. It would mean that people will have to learn to watch d-scan, but it would make PvP roaming in nullsec a lot more fun because people don't know the instant that you come into system.


Nullsec already has most of the PvP in the game.

Highsec could use some more PvP though. CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#50 - 2013-02-02 14:43:36 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Why not simply eliminate local's intel-gathering capability altogether? Have the same sort of delayed chat system that already exists in WH space. It would mean that people will have to learn to watch d-scan, but it would make PvP roaming in nullsec a lot more fun because people don't know the instant that you come into system.


Nikk's proposal kind of achieves the same thing as fully delayed local. when in stealth mode, you are not detectable in local and don't get the benefit of local. when you hide in POS (or station) you do not show in local but do not get the benefit of local. so local only shows people who are active and findable. that is a good balance IMHO. low&0.0 are about finding someone to fight with.

sure, you could say: "well they just put an alt on grid with gate and still can fill their 0.0 intelchannles with intel and spoil little roams". But it needs a littel more effort and awareness and creates ways to evade or dilute this intel.

in one sentence: by making local displaying only targets/pilots which are in space and attackable and only apparent for people which are also in space and attackable, you take the all the UBERness away usually associated with local.

i could imagine, that local as proposed by the OP, is tied to SOV. so, as long as there is a sov holder (always in high and low, claimed systems in 0.0) there is this newlocal. when a system is unclaimed it's local gets WH-style until its claimed. that would create some form of space-terrain for small gangs to hide in and evade big alliance blobs. However at the same time there needs to be a new 0.0-mechanic which discourages a single alliance to hold enormous amounts of systems and rather focus on a small amount of core systems.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#51 - 2013-02-02 14:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Mag's wrote:
(...)
You should not nerf cloaks, until local intel on a plate is changed.

thats, what the thread is about.
I know. That post was pointing out the remove AFK cloaking attitude, of nerf without forethought.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#52 - 2013-02-02 15:41:11 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Mag's wrote:
(...)
You should not nerf cloaks, until local intel on a plate is changed.

thats, what the thread is about.
I know. That post was pointing out the remove AFK cloaking attitude, of nerf without forethought.


well, nevermind then :)
Buzz Skywalker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-02-02 16:15:06 UTC
You know, I'm personally shocked at the easy access we have to CONCORD's high value local intel. Why do we get continuously active lists of who is in chat channels we don't control?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#54 - 2013-02-02 23:17:41 UTC
Buzz Skywalker wrote:
You know, I'm personally shocked at the easy access we have to CONCORD's high value local intel. Why do we get continuously active lists of who is in chat channels we don't control?

That's a fair question.

I never considered local chat to be connected to Concord, as it were, especially considering it exists in areas that Concord does not.

If it is Concord linked, then perhaps big brother watches more than we ever realized.
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#55 - 2013-02-03 07:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Trespasser
my 2 cents.


1. Have a mod like the cyno jammer but a cloak jammer.. you cant have both running and it needs an upgrade in the Ihub + the mod + it has around the same cost per day as a jammer.

you turn it on and after 30 mins it deactivates all cloaks within the system and they cannot be reactivated till the mod is turned off.

The 30 min timer would show up in space like station timers do for example.

this way you dont have supers ratting in a ni-invulerable state because they can be dropped atleast.

It also gives the cloaky camper a chance to leave by showing the timer throughout the system. So if he is really around and not at work with his computer running at home, he can get away.






2. This option is just bring back the system scanner mod for the POS and allow it to scan out cloaked vessels.



as far as the whole, local vs no local vs delayed local etc etc.. its just a dead horse.. While alot of us wouldnt mind - most of eve would rage out thus making ccp back down.

Local has been apart of this game since launch.. to change it now is not really viable. Ccp gave people who like that an area, its called wormhole space.

/me puts on flame suit
Tsobai Hashimoto
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-02-03 10:25:46 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Boohoo whine post about my bots and Bears not being able to farm isk 24/7, cry cry cry.

The only thing local needs is for it to be removed like in wh unless people wish to be visible in local channel via a transponder switch attachted to the new safety.



I love how half of the people, like the guy I quoted, didnt read the text and see that THAT IS WHAT HE IS SAYING

remove local of any cloaked ships

his idea would be major burden to bots and bears, if you actually read the post, which you didn't, or cant understand intelligent sarcasm.


Anyways, wont happen, it would drain major income from null, and DEVs have already stated they want to make MORE isk in null to bring players out, just like how they fixed FW and Low Sec

So dont hold your breath, they will not improve cloakers or gangs by removing local in nullsec space, to many players making to much isk buying to many plexs......
its simple business, and removing local is a major blow to it.....sorry guys
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-02-03 16:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Friggz
I have no sympathy for those who complain about afk cloaking, but to call this a compromise is disingenuous. The people who see AFK cloaking as a 'problem' which needs to be 'fixed' are the people who want to go into 0.0 and still be immune from pvp. This solution does not allow them to do that, in fact it just makes 0.0 even more dangerous for them. It gives one side exactly what it wants and the other side nothing.

AFK cloaking as it currently stands is already compromise itself between the wolves and the sheep. It works just fine.

The battle between the wolves and the sheep has been going on since online gaming began, namely with Ultima Online. What happens is you have wolves and sheep, and I don't call them sheep in a derogatory way. More to make a simple analogy that one play type is sustained by the environment and the other is sustained by killing and devouring the first group. Now, designers often put up a fence between the wolves and sheep, and the wolves, seeing this fence, often shake their paws in the air and dream of a better world without fences where they can have a sheep wholesale slaughter.

What the wolves don't release is if you took away that fence, the sheep don't stick around to be slaughtered over and over. They leave. What you are left with is an empty field and a bunch of starving wolves. Do you think a group of people so risk averse that they think their entire corp has to dock up their ships if one hostile is in the system is just going to stick around if you remove local, or take cloakers off local?

No. They aren't. They will go back to Hi-Sec or quit the game. How many of them are we going to kill then? You have to give the sheep something or they move on for greener pastures. Let them complain about AFK cloaking. They've been complaining about it for years.

Of course, this whole thing is nothing but a symptom of broken 0.0 mechanics. We need players to actually have incentive for defending their space. No one cares about it now because the major income at the top of the alliance foodchain is from moons and that income operates 24/7 and can't be attacked by roaming gangs. Thus no one cares to defend the sheep, because they are worthless. If making money off owning space actually required players to be online and in ships to harvest, not only would 0.0 be a lot more fun, but you'd have a back and forth between people attacking the harvesters and defending them. Everyone gets a good fight and defending your space actually matters. Until then we are stuck with nullbears who'll never fight because no one defends them or taught them how. Anyway, that's a discussion for another time.

In short: You have to give the sheep something or they go elsewhere. They'll never accept nerfing local. AFK cloaking as it stands is already a reasonable compromise that gives both sides something.
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-02-03 16:39:04 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Boohoo whine post about my bots and Bears not being able to farm isk 24/7, cry cry cry.

The only thing local needs is for it to be removed like in wh unless people wish to be visible in local channel via a transponder switch attachted to the new safety.



I love how half of the people, like the guy I quoted, didnt read the text and see that THAT IS WHAT HE IS SAYING

remove local of any cloaked ships

his idea would be major burden to bots and bears, if you actually read the post, which you didn't, or cant understand intelligent sarcasm.


Anyways, wont happen, it would drain major income from null, and DEVs have already stated they want to make MORE isk in null to bring players out, just like how they fixed FW and Low Sec

So dont hold your breath, they will not improve cloakers or gangs by removing local in nullsec space, to many players making to much isk buying to many plexs......
its simple business, and removing local is a major blow to it.....sorry guys


Agreed.
ORCACommander
Obsidian Firelance Technologies
#59 - 2013-02-03 18:49:23 UTC
i like this part of cloaking is emissions control which means they should not show up in local, however they should still be able receive and see local since that can all be done with passive sensors. its a very clean solution. I also like what it does when i am camping a gate with a falcon or manticore }:D>
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-02-04 08:29:52 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
my 2 cents.


1. Have a mod like the cyno jammer but a cloak jammer.. you cant have both running and it needs an upgrade in the Ihub + the mod + it has around the same cost per day as a jammer.

you turn it on and after 30 mins it deactivates all cloaks within the system and they cannot be reactivated till the mod is turned off.

The 30 min timer would show up in space like station timers do for example.

this way you dont have supers ratting in a ni-invulerable state because they can be dropped atleast.

It also gives the cloaky camper a chance to leave by showing the timer throughout the system. So if he is really around and not at work with his computer running at home, he can get away.






2. This option is just bring back the system scanner mod for the POS and allow it to scan out cloaked vessels.



as far as the whole, local vs no local vs delayed local etc etc.. its just a dead horse.. While alot of us wouldnt mind - most of eve would rage out thus making ccp back down.

Local has been apart of this game since launch.. to change it now is not really viable. Ccp gave people who like that an area, its called wormhole space.

/me puts on flame suit


Your suggestion does nothing to solve the issue and everything to make your space safer for you. Far too one sided, even down to the system global timer seen in space to help protect ratting supers.

...