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Faction Warfare Redesign Thread

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Author
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1 - 2011-10-06 00:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
THIS THREAD MAKES REFERENCES TO THE INCURSION MISSION SYSTEM - THE CONTEXT IS TO USE IT TO GENERATE PVP, NOT PVE CONTENT. READ THE MATERIAL CAREFULLY. THANK YOU.

I'm going to forego the initial yack about the issues wrong with Faction Warfare and get to tackling things in a manner that the BFF team took a shot at Null Sec.

This means throwing out everything FW is about today, because in my opinion there is hardly much worth keeping in the way that it actually works.

What do we want Faction Warfare to Be?



a. The Story of the War between the 4 Major Empires.

b. The place that the players can change this story and be a part of the EVE Storyline.

c. A place for serious PVP and light PVP to mesh. Where noobs can learn, and veterans can feel a part of the EVE story (if they care for it) and develop connections.

d. A building place for PVP corporations to grow and then depart from strictly FW content.

e. Sandbox Lite for the Ultimate Null Sec Sandbox

f. A place that builds on the foundation of the EVE story, not makes it banal.




Again, starting from scratch, with nothing to work from, what would the ideal FW be? An FW that recognizes that it's only a small part of a bigger universe.


My FW would influence the world beyond the "War Zone". The MInmatar losing should affect the Minmatar Republic in a myriad of ways. The High Sec pilots should actually ask themselves once and a while, because it affects them, "Is my militia losing? Man, that's gonna suck, prices on X are going to shoot up."


My FW would be a place to not just go in and get a 5 minute PVP encounter, but a place where I can feel like a space pilot facing great odds and that I must work with my militia to get the impossible done. Where I can identify the Veteran pilots in my faction, and look up to them, not to be thrust into it with no idea of what is expected of me.


My FW would help new pilots learn PVP skills starting in Frigates, and then working up to larger ships - both by working with other players but also with game content that helps me understand fundamental concepts through doing them in a controlled environment.


My FW would affect the Low Sec around the war zone - Pirates would feel the influence of the Militia's, but would also be able to fight against them. Rather than becoming an obvious solution - a dynamic is created between Militia VS Militia VS Piracy VS Merc VS Independents that identify each other and build relationships.


My FW would make me feel like a small part of a bigger story. Players would be able to contribute to my Militia information network, providing stories or news blips for us to know what's happening all over the war zone. The war zone would be larger than 4 jumps from one Militi's HQ to the other. It would be dynamic, and targeted. I'd feel like the war is happening all over the Galaxy, not only in the small Low Sec pocket.




Alright.


I think that covers most of my foundations for the next set of discussions.



Remember, we are TOTALLY throwing out all the major aspects of FW as it is today. However, the foundation is still valuable as follows ::


a. Zones of Conflict
b. Ranks
c. FW Missions
d. Militia Info Screen
e. Occupation of Systems
f. Stories from the players



However, what these mean will be totally redefined as I go forward.


Currently, the FW area is based around Low Sec zones between the 2 Empires, however all the empires are marginally allied towards their opposition. Yet, it doesn't seem to matter to anyone in High Sec? It doesn't feel like a war. Noone gives a **** clearly. The story is stale, it's dead, there is nothing to be done.


This has to be totally given new life, because it is truly dead. The over-arching perspective of the War should affect the outcomes in High Sec - such as what NPC Corporations do.


So, how do we rebuild FW to include influences on the environment. Players don't just want a PVP arena, they want to be a part of something that matters. To the new player, PVP is a crazy, insane, fast paced, heart pounding and adrenaline filled moment that lasts a total of... 15 seconds. They're totally stunned and shocked if they had any clue what was going on and their hands are shaking from adrenaline and so on - and that's amazing - but they probably got blown up by a Veteran in a ship name they couldn't pronounce and using weapons systems that make them wonder, "Gee, doesn't a Cruise missile seem like over kill on a frigate?". They still want to know they contribute. Inevitably, the best Veterans end up flying Frigates and Faction frigates out of safety and out of the easy and fun targets that they attract. What becomes the foundation for determining progress, even if you're a young pilot, and what determines the effect and influence you have on your environment by having been able to contribute to that progress? To say, "I WAS THERE".


The Incursion Mission system provides promising tools to make this happen - foregoing the need for excessively powerful NPCs.


Let's say that you wake up one morning and log on to your FW character. The first thing that you do is you go check your Militia Information Window, because it provides actually useful information that contributes to your daily content. Opening the screen up, you see that there is a Contested Constellation opening up in the Hed constellation. You see that there are 100 Minmatar pilots and 100 Amarr pilots in the constellation and the Amarrians have control of a certain set of complexes which give them particular advantages over the system. You jump on the Fleet Finder and find a Militia fleet for the area. You get on board and fly over with your frigate.


Continued...

Where I am.

Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-10-06 00:54:56 UTC
They are fixing it dude, it was in Zulus blog.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#3 - 2011-10-06 01:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Zones of Conflict

There is a story for this Contested Constellation, one of many that tend to repeat themselves. The Amarrians are attacking the Minmatar in this system to exploit a local population for slaves that they are trying to acquire. The background story for this is that a set of holders with personal interests have persuaded the Amarr MIlitary that there is valuable Veldspar *cough* in the area.

This influences the kind of sites that are found on this constellation.


You get in a fleet of 5 frigates and go to one of the sites spawns in close orbit of a planet in the system, and shows Industrials flying to and from the planet picking up slaves. You go in and a team of 4-5 of you are tasked with killing the Industrials. Your rewards scale based on the number of pilots that enter, so you get less rewards for more pilots. As you go in to start destroying industrials and NPCs with the new AI (who are scaled down in difficulty to properly represent a fair challenge, rather than an Incursion level challenge). 2 Acceleration gates are provided at the entrance to the site, this is so that the incoming opposition isn't forced to enter on top of an enemy if they choose not to, they can come in at the other side of the complex if they choose. As hostile players appear on the gate and warp in to defend, the assaulting Minmatar ships are able to hack a nearby node and get Minmatar NPC reinforcements to arrive as well. The NPC's begin to engage each other, and the players are left to deal with each other. So, as the players are fighting over the node, there is a war appearing around them that gives a greater sense of conflict. The objective is to destroy 6 Industrials, but the Amarrians take control of the system and are able to push back the damage done. They do this through another site in the system that is for providing escort for Industrial ships coming in to the area. The site for the escort can be countered by the Minmatar, and so the Minmatar pilots now move over to the industrial interdiction site to blow up the incoming industrials, and to halt countering the hard work that they did. ALthough they can't defeat the Amarrian force, they call for backup and try to hold up the Amarrians from coming and protecting the Industrials as long as they can.


There is a status bar that represents which way the constellation fighting is going, and the militia's are able to see what is going on in the fighting easily. Different systems have different challenges waiting for them for different sized fleets. The LP gain is proportional, and keeps some PVP fleets to a reasonable size. Although sometimes completing certain objectives can be valuable enough to forego the rewards presented and bring more pilots into the zone. This creates the decision challenge.

In the end, the Constellation is occupied by the Amarrians, who win the Constellation (wholesale, not system by system) for the Amarrians. Prices on slaves across Amarr drop down in price for 4 days. Amarrian players in the Constellation benefit from increased resistances on their ships, reduced taxes and broker fee's. PI export fees are reduced for any planets that are controlled by Amarrians (Interacting With DUST514?). Minmatar Militia who aggress have an extended Aggression Timer that denies them docking or jumping (3 minutes instead of 1 minute) - As well as other small perks that may add up.

Meanwhile a Minmatar offensives starts to build up, in order to get the offensive up, players must contribute different resources to get their offensive going. Opportunities for providing mining resources, ice resources, etc are brought to a TLF station to get an assault going and to get a strike. The CEO of the highest contributing corporation/alliances can choose the type of assault and where it will go within 24 hours (or it will default to the next person on the list). So he chooses a "Slave Liberation" assault on the Tandoiras constellation. Constellations with less assaults will acquire more valuable rewards/opportunities and will send players to farther ends of the Constellations to either inconvenience or to promote different types of warfare - taking the fighting off the immediate "frontlines".

In the end, the players have some decisions, and the politics falls on them.



How will the High Sec empires feel the effects of the Low Sec War? This is a good question and I'm not sure exactly - perhaps lower mission rewards for the side losing? Perhaps more perks for the winning side that gives the are economic advantages? Lower tax rates? It's a difficult question without totally imbalancing the High sec "thing", but why can't it be imbalanced? Why should it be obviously one sided? Economic disadvantages seem to be the natural thing to lean to, hit High Sec where it hurts. But maybe there are other disadvantages to be had. It's interesting to explore, and I hope this line of thinking enters CCP's view of "Empire Space" - High Sec shouldn't be so stable!


This system represents a dynamic and centralized focus on directed FW that has storylines. There can be a dozen different types of "Assaults" with different missions that their objectives actually represent some form of tangible goal that represents the empires interests. Rather than "there's a beacon plex here, go to it and sit there for 15minutes"....

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...


You create a dynamic environment between different systems in a constellation, competing for an area. Dust would fit nicely into this niche idea as well - planets under attack have different nuances for FW combat - this puts DUST on the map for attacking particular planets for a reason - maybe they even affect what happens on the EVE plexes?


Either way, I'm going to continue my thoughts on this as more ideas come to mind.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#4 - 2011-10-06 01:33:29 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
They are fixing it dude, it was in Zulus blog.


Hence me actually bothering to write something about something that they're trying to give attention to right now. I didn't decide to write this just because it was available.


As well, CCP Zulu requested on a thread he created on what people wanted to SEE in FW. I was finally able to put together an answer for him.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#5 - 2011-10-06 01:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
RANKS


So, Ranks should become a way for a newer pilot to identify with the Veteran pilots - not just a representation of their standing with the 24IC, or whatever. Make it a dynamic system.


Currently, no-one cares if you're an X except for some novelty value. Make it represent that persons involvement in the Militia to the effect of making ROOKIES look and say "That guy matters".


The MIlitia Office can perhaps list the top ranks or contributers in the militia and make it easy for rookies to see who the great pilots are so they can feel a part of a community. Right now as a new pilot, it's all fuzzy and you don't know where you should be, or what you should do - you just know doing some of these Plexes things are supposed to help something, but you don't know what.


Giving a way to see Ranks and the pilots to represent their performance as well gives a great story for the people looking at it. Who they are, why they're there, maybe a lowly ranked pilot is coming up and beating all the best pilots. Making a name for himself there. Show it on the CQ Main screen to all of EVE - "Top Militia Pilot of the Week"

Ranks are awesome looking but hardly represented. Give us the ability to put them on our Incarna characters. Create an FW Militia Uniform for each of the races - with the rank represented on the shoulders.


Make people outside the militia think it means more than just some "standing". It should actually be some form of, "Hey, look at that dude!"


Imagine being able to say "Ya, that guy's an Ace pilot" as a rookie. That feeling of, "i'm a small guy, but I'm looking up to that guy". Now imagine getting that when you're sitting in a TLF Station at the establishment with the other Militia pilots, getting a drink. Social things will happen.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#6 - 2011-10-06 01:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
FW Missions :


FW Missions should be turned away from being about ISK and LP and turned towards gearing up the faction towards an offensive. These missions contribute to the offensive building of the militia that start the actual ISK + LP element where the assault actually is going on.


Missions to kill the leader, and so on can stay similar, but provide good rewards, but more importantly get the next stage of an offensive going by requiring a certain number of missions to get an assault moving.


The missions can still go to anywhere in the war zone, meaning that they also provide content away from major contention areas for those who want to avoid it but still contribute in their own way. You don't have to go to the main offensives, you can help by doing these missions as well for the overall attacks.


The missions should be retooled to represent this change in attitude - Level 4's are currently done with a interceptor and a stealth bomber to maximize time completion of these targeted objectives (rather than clearing the whole site) - that's actually a pretty neat concept for completing espionage missions, so retool the sites to actually be feasible for this kind of thing.


This system provides opportunities for the newer player to get involved and not just in a way that helps his own pocket. He can sit down and say "I contributed 4 mission points to our next offensive." It can still be found and flushed out by other Minmatar players doing defensive sweeps (which people do regularly, believe it or not looking for a fight) in the back end systems - or it promotes some militia corps to live in low population systems.



The missions becoming a part of the actual faction warfare system, rather than the current way that everything has absolutely nothing to do with anything else is really crucial part in providing a unified experience from the FW redesign.

Where I am.

Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-06 02:20:37 UTC
Surprising as it might be, I actually think CCP would be better off redesigning FW on their own. It needs reconstruction from the ground up as a completely different beast, and I'd rather let them do it under their own steam.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#8 - 2011-10-06 02:26:15 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
Surprising as it might be, I actually think CCP would be better off redesigning FW on their own. It needs reconstruction from the ground up as a completely different beast, and I'd rather let them do it under their own steam.


Clearly not reading anything I'm writing.

Where I am.

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#9 - 2011-10-06 02:29:35 UTC
I think its a bit too much to reply to all in one posting, sir substance USUALLY counters every point made if he disagree with it. I know I wouldnt espeically with the post eating bug.

BTW how are you going to restart the war when caldari won?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#10 - 2011-10-06 02:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Nova Fox wrote:
I think its a bit too much to reply to all in one posting, sir substance USUALLY counters every point made if he disagree with it. I know I wouldnt espeically with the post eating bug.

BTW how are you going to restart the war when caldari won?



Well, that's a really serious question too - so the fighting starts going back in favor of the Gallente, but then the Caldari are in control? It never really ended, the story was "pushed" but the value of it was very minimal. There was no further story involving the Intaki control, the auctions of the planet, etc.


Part of the issue that CCP faces with the novelty value in writing the story as events unfold is committing writing resources to "telling" the story when something interesting happens. They put too much emphasis on the wrong parts and didn't have the technology that they have today.


I think they can keep it easier to manage in terms of story line by having the Contest System tell the story for them. By having special types of assaults that tell a story, then those can be built into it. They can do special story snippets when something happens, but the actual story happens with the players. They can keep iterating on these ideas with the foundation I'm writing above, understanding that this is all just a brain storm session to get these ideas to CCP more than anything else.

They totally gave up on writing Faction Warfare news and events because it really didn't contribute anything to the REAL story. Now, it may motivate players, and that's great - but it's still in the end... novelty. The players want to tell the story, THEN you support them with novelty.

Where I am.

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#11 - 2011-10-06 05:24:40 UTC
Ill have to nit pick the rest of the post later maybe go one topic at a time instead of my usual carpet bomb.

As for the assination of leaders would you allow for players to fulfill the role as a leader (aka shoot an adrmial down) or having those new npcs with advanced AIs (officers ai thats being developed makes the sleeper ai look stupid and the sansha ai marginally competent.)

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#12 - 2011-10-06 05:31:29 UTC


I would imagine all the sites would use some of the AI to be smarter than average. They don't have to be super powerful ships, just balanced ships that can be taken down by frigates, or comparably sized ship types for that site.


This would get pilots to get a bit more out of PVE than just the boring same old PVE content. Instead, a challenging PVE AI that can at least get them to somewhat get the feel of how a real player might play (somewhat).


The leaders would really depend on the site for challenge level. I don't think that's the level of detail that matters at this point - those things can be fleshed out in development. Creating a THEME a PURPOSE and a SENSATION that you are actually participating in a real WAR matters more than what AI they will use for the leader.


That happens not on the PVE level, but on the PVP level and game mechanics which reward and penalize what happens in the system all together.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#13 - 2011-10-06 06:05:12 UTC
Thanks for the shout out on the sovereigntywars blog.


http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/

Where I am.

zero2espect
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#14 - 2011-10-06 18:15:43 UTC
no more FW missions. to earn LP and other goodies you have to close plexes or kill targets. that will cut 50% of the people who are only in FW for the easy mission rewards down to those who really just want to be there. killing targets should count towards sovreignty somehow. nothing more frustrating than killing 127 enemy ships, no losses and then knowing that it doesn't mean anything - compared to a guy in a single frig capping some plexes.

the other thing is that held space has to mean something. stuff that makes a difference. 50% saving on pos fuel requirements, better rats, better static mission lootz, something combat related - e.g. a tech 2 interdictor bubble with only 5km radius that can be used in low sec only by the militia "owning" the system. racial bonus to the militia based ships in home systems. something. cheaper repairs. more ore output from belts (which brings miners, which brings pirates, which makes more people flying in closer systems and more targets).

the "only good plexes come up at dt time" "feature" has to go as well. no matter how well you do closing plexes it's a pain to know that straight after down time, a single frig can go an open all the juicy "spawned" plexes and undo all your work, just because you're in a different TZ.

some 100% hard coded rules regarding losing and gaining faction standings. easy to lose, easy to gain OR hard to lose, hard to gain. not as it currently is, easy to lose impossible to get back twice. the current mechanism is severly broken.

the ability to set aligned factions as "friendly" e.g. amarr/caldari are blue to each other.

the other thing that really sucks is that the militia is fairly fragmented - and then a big alliance can just come into the area and completely squash all faction warfare activity. the PL/amamake situation is just a joke. i don't hate on PL for being here, the mechanics dictate that they can go wherever they want - but having arguably the biggest, baddest alliance in the game squatting right in the middle of fast and loose faction warfare is just not the best for us - bringing capitals to frigate fights and tech3 blobs against cruisers and battlecruisers just takes the fun outa logging in.

just some ideas.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#15 - 2011-10-06 18:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
zero2espect wrote:


just some ideas.




Thanks for the input.

If you take some time, I know it's a lot to read above, about the ideas I"m proposing, the current system would be totally thrown out. The new system would be expanded to look something like this :


Militia's can assault each others Constellations. The system would be superficially taken from the Incursion systems way of assaulting constellations.

To get the Assault moving, materials have to be gathered and delivered to militia stations (rocks, ice, ISK, Completing Missions (not todays missions) whatever).

When that gets completed, you get to the fun part, attacking a constellation. You get an incursion style system where sites are created that need to be completed or defended. No "Timers". Instead, you have to complete an objective- i.e. Kill 6 industrials. Completing the sites gets you pushed towards winning the system. The sites aren't designed to be PVE shoot fests, but instead about a small PVE force to provide entertainment if there is no resistance, and then a PVP enabled environment to attack and push pilots out of the sites and destroy them.

2 assaults can be happening against each other and so people can choose to either attack or defend, or if one militia doesn't have an assault going it will be one attack ongoing. The location of the assault and the type of assault are a decision that is made by the biggest contributers, creating internal competition and politics as well as competition with the opposing militias.

This way, you get focused areas of conflict, missions that contribute to the whole experience, sites that are actually related to completing objectives and promoting PVP, and compelling reasons for various groups including industrial types to be involved in the warfare.


All this shouldn't be super rewarding - it should be fine and somewhat rewarding, promoting people to learn and those who love FW to stay, and at the same time promoting those who wish to move on when they're ready the ability to do so.

Where I am.

Callic Veratar
#16 - 2011-10-06 18:42:33 UTC
I didn't read your whole rant because it is so very very long, so, rather than start another thread, I'll add my point with the preceding caveat.

The most important thing for FW to me is that I would like to be able to join FW without having to join a militia corp. Let me pick up an FW mission or even just a flag from a FW station that flags me/my fleet as a target and shows me targets. While it's active, I'm fair game. When I'm done, I can return to a FW station to trigger a cooldown, say an hour, where I'm still a target, but I'm leaving the ranks. Potentially, we have access to FW jump clones with their own implants and all. Existing militia corps would be maintained (and potentially earn a greater bonus for 'permanently' enlisting).

There are a few benefits I see to doing it this way:
- It becomes structured PVP lite
- More people can participate
- No need to disrupt unwilling corp-mates
- The investment to check it out becomes smaller
Kuan Yida
Huang Yinglong
Electus Matari
#17 - 2011-10-06 18:48:43 UTC
I'm reposting something I wrote for the Sovereignty Wars blog:

Make killing WTs more rewarding.

While killing enemy ships has a sporadic LP reward (which, by the way, should be divided among all combatants and not just top damage dealer) there should also be a bounty placed by our government on enemy pod pilots. Possibly by the rank of the enemy pilot. This would help offset the large cost of losing ships in PvP. Again, the bounty shouldn’t be just to the final blow dealer, but like missions and rats, divided among all participants on the combat grid.

Make plexing more rewarding.

Plexing is boring as hell. If we could see how much capturing added or removed to the status of a system (like in Incursions) then we could motivate people to plex more. And, there should be monetary rewards and loyalty points involved, they don’t have to be large but any little bit helps. And maybe our navies don’t have to be quite so dumb? They could be more like Sanshas…

Make captured systems have some real consequence.

I’m not sure on the details of this one. Maybe we add local navy ‘rats’ to captured systems? Maybe there is some sort of home field bonus to killing enemies in captured systems (to both sides) in an ISK reward? I’d also have a large monetary boost and LP reward to those pilots who capture a bunker. And I’d make a miltia-wide broadcast to both militias when a system has gone vulnerable. Or, over time if a system is captured the friendly rats get tougher/smarter, or maybe it becomes more and more difficult to reclaim the system?

And I’d create a huge reward in ISK and LP to any militia that actually wins… that is, capturing all systems and holding them over time. Medals, LP and ISK rewards militia wide when this happens, and rewarded again maybe for each day that the militia hangs onto all enemy systems…

The dragon knight treasures the state, friendship, duty, promises, kindness, vengeance, honor, and righteousness more than his own life._ _- The Way of the Dragon Warrior Random Posts from Auga

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#18 - 2011-10-06 18:49:03 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
I didn't read your whole rant because it is so very very long, so, rather than start another thread, I'll add my point with the preceding caveat.


Not ranting. Roll

Feel free to read it.

Callic Veratar wrote:

The most important thing for FW to me is that I would like to be able to join FW without having to join a militia corp. Let me pick up an FW mission or even just a flag from a FW station that flags me/my fleet as a target and shows me targets. While it's active, I'm fair game. When I'm done, I can return to a FW station to trigger a cooldown, say an hour, where I'm still a target, but I'm leaving the ranks. Potentially, we have access to FW jump clones with their own implants and all. Existing militia corps would be maintained (and potentially earn a greater bonus for 'permanently' enlisting).



I think it's a good idea overall. My question is, how many people would do this? Would they need more rewards to be teased into doing it?

I'd say in my vision that this would be part of the "Missions" aspect of FW contributing to the ability to get assaults going. Going in and starting an FW Mission, but not necessarily able to be part of an actual assault as part of the militia. So you can get some excitement to go out there and do an objective that helps the militia, as a merc/freelancer style idea - but you can't get the perks and benefits without actually joining the Militia.

Interesting idea, thanks for the input.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#19 - 2011-10-06 19:21:11 UTC
Kuan Yida wrote:
I'm reposting something I wrote for the Sovereignty Wars blog:

Make killing WTs more rewarding.


Make plexing more rewarding.


Make captured systems have some real consequence.



I think that the system needs a new face lift from scratch, otherwise it's going to not go anywhere. The current system isn't creative or fun enough for anyone involved, the people who stay do it to hang on to the PVP, not if it's FW or not.

Where I am.

Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-10-06 19:41:03 UTC
Alright, not gonna lie, this threads got some of the best ideas for FW ive seen in a LONG time, unfortunateyly, i dont really have anything to add because it seems pretty solid.
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