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Faction Warfare Redesign Thread

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Author
zero2espect
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#41 - 2011-10-07 13:43:44 UTC
the other thing to think about - and helping ccp move towards a more "current" business model would be to think about factoring in "kills for plex". linked to faction warfare this could proove to bring more pvpers to FW. the idea is that "so many" faction warfare kills gives you credit towards plex. this has an added bonus of boosting the economy along as people will lose more ships, modules etc. with ccp facing increased competition from "free to play" this could be an interesting step in the right direction.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#42 - 2011-10-07 15:17:54 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
Your proposal is long and needlessly complicated. It also throws out the very essence of what FW and low sec is all about. Most of us in the militias and in low sec in general once lived in null. We left because of the mind numbingly boring nature of it combined with blobtastic lagfests. FW and indeed low sec in general should not be viewed as a stepping stone to null. They aren't, never have been and hopefully never will be. Low sec is more of a pvp arena and that arena-ish style is what draws virtually everyone to FW currently in it. It would be a dire mistake to attempt to change that.



Low Sec isn't an Arena.


That's the attitude of people who live in Null Sec towards Low Sec. Low Sec residents treat Low Sec like a home. It's a place for them to claim actual "sovereignty" without needless mechanics - we own our space because we EXIST there.

Don't bring Null Sec perspectives to Low Sec.


The irony is, your recommendations will create the exact thing that you want to avoid - "MInd-numbingly boring nature combined with blobtastic lagfests".


The concept I've written out above is about negating most of those elements and creating a dynamic environment.


You say it yourself "That arena-ish style is what draws virtually everyone to FW currently in it..."

What people in FW? FW is almost dead in terms of activity - you can hardly get a 10-15 man fleet together on a Sunday afternoon. So you're telling me that appealing to the people that are already attracted to it is going to improve the population?

Erm, no. You attract people that AREN'T in FW to attract more people. The people attracted to the limited gamestyle of FW are clearly not sufficient in quantity. It is also intended to be an environment to get new players INTO PVP - but where are those people? They hang around very briefly and leave.

They're unskilled, incapable and overwhelmed and noone is able to guide them because all of the productive FW corps LEFT. Why? Because this "Arena-ish" style doesn't attract long term and invested players. It attracts single-minded PVPers who want immediate satisfaction, and even then they DON'T GET IT, why? Because you can't grow a garden on bullets. You have to create and manifest an environment of cooperation and competition. Not this "Arena".



I've lived in low sec continuously for the past 3 years (excluding a handful of week long trips to null/wspace). I've been in FW for 2 of those and was a pirate for the other year. Low sec is and always has been a pvp based area. In a lot of ways, null sec is the training field for low sec. My suggested changes would allow for tons of pvp while also allowing pvp fleets to make some isk to cover their losses. The problem with much of eve at the moment is the split between pvp and pve. It should be possible to make isk while pvping, and that's what my idea aims for.

I specifically rejected the idea of locking people out of stations but I think tinkering with station services is a valid option as it gives a very real reason to actually have occupancy on a system. FW's place in eve is as a no nonsense pvp arena. Now I am using the word arena very loosely. By arena I mean everyone there is a willing combatant, there should not be anyone there who's just there to make fat iskies and those people are one of the primary problems with the current FW system. This is why I suggest the complete deletion of the current FW mission system and moving the LP rewards over to plex capping. You make isk by forming a pvp fleet and capping plexes. The enemy may or may not show, but you must be prepared for it and willing to fight if you want to make any isk. I think that's a very reasonable setup.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2011-10-07 16:17:10 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Your proposal is long and needlessly complicated. It also throws out the very essence of what FW and low sec is all about. Most of us in the militias and in low sec in general once lived in null. We left because of the mind numbingly boring nature of it combined with blobtastic lagfests. FW and indeed low sec in general should not be viewed as a stepping stone to null. They aren't, never have been and hopefully never will be. Low sec is more of a pvp arena and that arena-ish style is what draws virtually everyone to FW currently in it. It would be a dire mistake to attempt to change that..



Agreed!
King Rothgar wrote:

So with that in mind, what's really needed are smaller tweaks and additions. For starters, the mission system needs to be trashed. I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that other than the mission farmers who never pvp. The LP should be tied to pvp and plex capping. Plex capping should require the eradication of the npc's in it, whether or not we keep the timer is debatable. I also think the LP/reward payout for said plexes should be set up like it is with incursions. Not the amounts mind you, but the style of how different sized groups impact it. Obviously the npc's in them need some balancing as well. As a final note on plexes, they need to be less dependent on DT. Currently the system sucks pretty hard for anyone who isn't playing 5 minutes after DT.

The current LP bounties on ships are very much a joke but I know they were set so low as to make profiting off killing your own alts impractical. I think the LP bounty can be increased by 10x without causing any alt farming issues. This would have been too much originally but with the insurance nerf it should be fine. It could go even higher for t2 and faction ships as those are basically uninsurable..


You are just changing mission pve farming into plexing pve farming.

Balance the missions to be like the amarr militia missions with lots of target painters and missiles. Make it impossible to do solo in a sb. Maybe make it so you can't cash in those lp unless you get some kills or do some plexes. But beyond that the missions are pretty decent.

If they turn fw plexing into some sort of incursion pve activity all will be lost. FW plexing should be pvp not shooting red crosses. Let the militia players know when plexes are being taken and let them choose to fight for them or not. No more faction wars against npcs. Eve already offers plenty of opportunities to shoot red crosses.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#44 - 2011-10-07 16:43:45 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Smells a lot like a revised version of My Vision from way back when so I can support most of it.


I never read your FW thread. I took a glance over it, but I couldn't draw any immediate correlations. I simply started from the very beginning knowing what tech CCP has today, and tried to build a vision towards it.

Great minds think a like, so any similarities you find I'll just attribute it to synchronicity.

Hirana Yoshida wrote:

The biggest problem that I feel FW currently has is that all the bits and pieces are completely separate; mission whores need never enter a plex or fire at an enemy, PvP'ers need never enter a plex or run a mission and plexers ....
It is a warzone for Goddess sake! How many wars have you heard of that allowed life in the warzone to putter along as if nothing was happening .. all aspects ought to feed into and from the same underlying system (occupancy).

@Wendi:
Plex spawn mechanics are a nuisance for sure, but calling it an easy fix is contrary to what CCP has said on the matter. It is based on exploration code and using the heinous DT shuffle was the lesser evil available to avoid funky **** like FW plexes spawning in Jita and such.
To fix that bit we have to minimize the random spawning and make it more of a 'choice thing'. Could be done by introducing something like Occupancy Interdiction Node Klusters (intentional spelling error for the acronyms sake!) that can force plexes to spawn .. gives us a tool to focus fire on individual constellations at all hours of the day.



I agree with this all together.


FW is totally separated and not interlinked. To respond to another person, the ideas I have above aren't "needlessly" complicated - they provide points of action at every step of the way to conquest. You may not care for those choices, but you don't have to make them, other people will do it.


Plexes are boring. Period. There is no way around it. They are BOOOOOOOOOOORING. They RARELY provoke satisfying PVP because the NPCs will primary the first thing that comes in, and then you have to run 50KM to get to the target, they can see you on scan from BILLIONS of KM away (literally) - so they know exactly how many you have and how many are coming. And you sit there...

10 minutes

at

a

time.

Doing

absolutely

nothing.

Over

and

Over

until

some

mechanic

decides

to

flip

it

to

vulnerable.

Tens

Of

Thousands

of

hours

of

peoples

lives

spent

doing

NOTHING.


The system is totally broken with PLEXes and SOV. It needs to be totally thrown out, absolutely thrown out. It needs a fresh system that represents targeted approach that brings players to a particular area large enough to interact with and to claim conquest over, so that you can get 100 people in a system in 10 different places trying to acccomplish different goals. It brings actual strategy and tactics in interacting on taking over and claiming a system, and it takes the fighting away from ONE PLACE.

It puts it in many different places that the PLAYERS can choose is the most relevant for them. They're allowed to make bad decisions, and make poor mistakes, they can find themselves doing logistics and getting good at logistics, important skills important for every part of EVE.

You can still get immediate content through various means, and big battles.

Something similar to my above idea - which I still have to flesh out a few more ideas - will at least get people besides "Arena" players motivated again to come to the FW scene.

Where I am.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#45 - 2011-10-07 16:50:30 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:
Just FYI I'm following this thread and when CCP ask for CSM input I'll definitely chime in with some stuff here if I think it's awesome. If you have any specific things or any blogs you want me to read and you don't want to post about it just eve-mail me.


Thanks for stepping up on this. I'm not sure this is the best thread for this topic. Here are some other threads:

This one gives a short overview of 22 different proposals that tend to pop up again and again:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1564233


Here are some other threads:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18015&find=unread

this thread starts to talk about some issues about page four or so:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6530&find=unread

IMO this quote sums up the problem with fw plexxing and why it is an embarrassment:
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), ….111 faction warfare complexes were captured … I did not kill anyone in the process..” Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00

FW occupancy should be based on pvp not pve. When she posted that comment someone in the thread said the militias need to be notified when a plex is entered. I agree with that person, put up his idea as a proposal linked in my sig.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#46 - 2011-10-07 16:50:41 UTC


Elise Randolph wrote:
Just FYI I'm following this thread and when CCP ask for CSM input I'll definitely chime in with some stuff here if I think it's awesome. If you have any specific things or any blogs you want me to read and you don't want to post about it just eve-mail me.



Thanks for your support of my thread.

I'll be continuing to summarize my ideas and try and give solid responses to players about my thoughts as well. I'm trying to focus on fresh ideas, rather than rehash the hundreds of things already often repeated about the current mechanics.

I'm hoping to get players to think outside of what has been said and take a fresh approach.

Where I am.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#47 - 2011-10-07 17:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Bloodpetal wrote:

RANKS...
....Imagine being able to say "Ya, that guy's an Ace pilot" as a rookie. That feeling of, "i'm a small guy, but I'm looking up to that guy". ....


That will never happen as long as FW is more about pve than pvp.

If they gave medals for doing thousands of incursions or sleeper sites and most people would just look at someone sporting it and say "That guy has allot of time on their hands."

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#48 - 2011-10-07 17:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
The Militia Information Screen :


The Militia Information screen is useful, but more of something you don't check often because it really doesn't give pertinent information regularly. The killboards give more granular information on kills, though it's interesting to see some statistics.


There is no "News" for FW anymore, so that detail is pretty much stagnant.


Again, starting with throwing everything out and starting from a total redesign, here's what My Militia Information panel would look like :


INFO TABS
Reports : Statistics : Top Pilots


REPORTS ::

The Reports page would tell you which constellations were under attack and defense, similar to the incursion info. As well, the status to completion of the Constellations and how many militia pilots were operating in the constellation, etc. Any relevant news articles from the ISD can be presented here on the side panel.

This alone would make the militia screen an interface used daily by all the players in the Militia.



STATISTICS :

Would show the same information it already does, no reason to mess with it - it's perfect. Victory points would be changed to something more appropriate, or retooled to represent conquest progress.



TOP PILOTS :

This goes back to the idea presented in the RANKS section of my ideas. The RANKS would be displayed by the pilots name, but also their individual actions. Top PIlot for Kills, Top Pilot for Conquest, Top Pilot for Resources, Top Pilot for etc. An All Time and Weekly report would be excellent, letting people feel like they have some chance at being part of history through this, but also a chance to see who is doing the best each week.

This brings internal competition to the militia's, which is healthy. It also lets some people grow leverage and politics by having their name displayed. It's simple tools, but they provide a larger swath of opportunities through the EVE-verse because of people react. Some people will hate them, some will love them, etc.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#49 - 2011-10-07 17:10:42 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

RANKS...
....Imagine being able to say "Ya, that guy's an Ace pilot" as a rookie. That feeling of, "i'm a small guy, but I'm looking up to that guy". ....


That will never happen as long as FW is more about pve than pvp.

If they gave medals for doing thousands of incursions or sleeper sites and most people would just look at someone sporting it and say "That guy has allot of time on their hands."


You haven't read my ideas really then.


The point of all of this is to make it about PVP.


Throw out everything you know about the militia game mechanics today, and read my ideas, and then we have a foundation to discuss.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#50 - 2011-10-07 17:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Occupation of Constellations :



Given the Zones of Conflict and the way that Constellations are pushed in each others favor... what is the consequence of all this?


This is a tough one really. The difficulty in that challenge has been that there are so few tangible connections between Low Sec and the rest of EVE. The only exception is POS' that run reactions in 0.3 or lower that feed some parts of the economy - but how many of those are actually in the war zone, and how would they be affected? It seems that the implications of affecting high sec through low sec interactions is challenging. If the EMPIRES are TRULY at WAR, then it should matter! EVE isn't about Arenas and "sandpits" in the "Sandbox" it should affect and interact with the whole sandbox, even if only ever so slightly.

Well, totally out of the box - how else can you affect things through the low sec wars? Well... frankly... it requires more emphasis on low sec for industrial things. This was discussed as a longer term idea by team BFF - and then maybe the militia can matter more in a direct fashion. The only other way I would say is a system of pledging allegiance to an Empire as a Citizen to gain perks from the Militia efforts.

If we had a system for non-combatants to "pledge allegiance" to an empire, you'd have a system that could in effect, create tangential benefits and bonuses by becoming a "Citizen" of an empire. That would make it valuable to an industrial corp who pledges to a specific Empire to receive perks while operating in that area. They wouldn't be war targets, instead civilians, but they'd get some perks for working on home turf and some penalties for operating in enemy territory. New Industrial corp? Pledge to the Minmatar Republic, if the mInmatar militia is doing well, you'll receive perks for working in the Minmatar republic and helping the Minmatar Economy! In contrast, you'll have some difficulty operating in Amarrian space - more fees, more taxes. When you grow, you can take away your pledge and become a truly intra-galactic corporation.


In Sum, there are no good ways to build on this without attempting a whole new feature. DUST is going to be launched sooner than later, and will have some affect on this universe as CCP becomes more comfortable with it. The Faction Wars have been stated to be the grounds for this testing for the background story. So, looking that even DUST is going to have some consequence on EVE through FW, how will FW FIS have an impact?




So, here's what I would say :

If Incursions are allowed to affect EVE and disrupt game play, why shouldn't a WAR WAGED BY PLAYERS do the same?

Food for thought.


Moving forward, from my list above here is what I think would work:

Stargates :
Delay Access for Aggression - If my militia owns a constellation that is NOT under assault, and another militia pilot engages me in it, then delay access for 1 or 2 minutes longer than usual so they can not escape so easily.

Stations :
Delay Access for Aggression - Same as above. This would resolve the bitching about Station Games. A drake that has 2 minutes to die is much more likely to die than a Drake that has 1 minute to die. It is still a choice the player must make, it doesn't take their power away, it just affects the way they MAKE those choices and how easy it is to make them.

Taxes and Broker Fees - Lower these to the militia in militia controlled systems. It won't be a massive difference, but it is a slight perk to create trade hubs in low sec for the militias.

Service Access - This is TRICKY. You don't want to deny the militia completely the ability to dock and do functional things. How about Repairs cost 2x normal? And other slight inconveniences that make them feel unwelcome?


Planets :
Lower Export Fees - Slight change, makes it cheaper for PI to happen. Combined with the "Citizen" idea, it could promote high sec empire citizens to go into low sec for PI and other perks.


Moons :
I've debated the lowering POS fuel requirements. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I think starbases need to be rethought out for this kind of thing. The only reasonable thing I could come up with is to require CHARTERS for low sec if you are an enemy militia, it's not a huge inconvenience, but it would mean you have an extra fuel type and you have to get it through alternative means... and potentially buying it from the same people you are trying to shoot at. Just a thought, other than that, I say leave it alone.

Combined with the "Citizen" idea, it could promote high sec empire citizens to go into low sec for Moon Goo.


Spaceships :
Bonuses for Militia pilots is probably too overpowered per system. I don't quite like it. Cynosural Jammers would be good to have to stop the uber cap drop of death. But, it could interfere with non-militia basic activities - but maybe that's a GOOD thing? The Cyno jammer could come off right before the final "win-loss" fight is determined, and then all the cap drop insanity can go down, but even then, maybe it should just stay cyno-jammed.

I think Cyno-jamming the Assaulted systems would be an interesting idea. Think about it. How often do FW fleets really cap drop? And how much more often are they more worried about interference from cap drops? Probably more of the latter than the former. They want to do their thing, not get WTFPWNED by 50 null sec cap ships. It also forces some challenges on the people in a system. The concept that you can sit in your little room and ignore the rest of EVE has to come to an end, this is one obvious way of doing it.






Then, high sec carebears can stay independent, or pledge to X Empire or X Empire - becoming "Citizens" in some respect. They don't get to be valid targf

Where I am.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#51 - 2011-10-07 18:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Bloodpetal wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

RANKS...
....Imagine being able to say "Ya, that guy's an Ace pilot" as a rookie. That feeling of, "i'm a small guy, but I'm looking up to that guy". ....


That will never happen as long as FW is more about pve than pvp.

If they gave medals for doing thousands of incursions or sleeper sites and most people would just look at someone sporting it and say "That guy has allot of time on their hands."


You haven't read my ideas really then.


The point of all of this is to make it about PVP.


Throw out everything you know about the militia game mechanics today, and read my ideas, and then we have a foundation to discuss.



I did not intend that comment to necessarily be directed at your idea. However the mechanics of your idea does seem to revolve around allot of npcs..

Bloodpetal wrote:
Zones of Conflict

You get in a fleet of 5 frigates and go to one of the sites spawns in close orbit of a planet in the system, and shows Industrials flying to and from the planet picking up slaves. You go in and a team of 4-5 of you are tasked with killing the Industrials. Your rewards scale based on the number of pilots that enter, so you get less rewards for more pilots. As you go in to start destroying industrials and NPCs with the new AI (who are scaled down in difficulty to properly represent a fair challenge, rather than an Incursion level challenge). 2 Acceleration gates are provided at the entrance to the site, this is so that the incoming opposition isn't forced to enter on top of an enemy if they choose not to, they can come in at the other side of the complex if they choose. As hostile players appear on the gate and warp in to defend, the assaulting Minmatar ships are able to hack a nearby node and get Minmatar NPC reinforcements to arrive as well. The NPC's begin to engage each other, and the players are left to deal with each other. So, as the players are fighting over the node, there is a war appearing around them that gives a greater sense of conflict. The objective is to destroy 6 Industrials, but the Amarrians take control of the system and are able to push back the damage done. They do this through another site in the system that is for providing escort for Industrial ships coming in to the area. The site for the escort can be countered by the Minmatar, and so the Minmatar pilots now move over to the industrial interdiction site to blow up the incoming industrials, and to halt countering the hard work that they did. ALthough they can't defeat the Amarrian force, they call for backup and try to hold up the Amarrians from coming and protecting the Industrials as long as they can..



If you are being attacked by npcs to begin with you will need an pve fit ship. What we have learned already in faction war is that if you force players to fit pve ships such as active hardeners and reps they will warp out when pvp ships do come.

Its not their fault. If you have npcs then people will need to fit for them and they won't want to fight when their tank has already been cut in half by them.

NPCs just add a randomness to potential pvp and randomness in a game is basically the opposite of skill in a game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#52 - 2011-10-07 18:10:08 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
[quote=Cearain][quote=Bloodpetal]
The point of all of this is to make it about PVP.


Throw out everything you know about the militia game mechanics today, and read my ideas, and then we have a foundation to discuss.



I did intend that comment to necessarily be directed at your idea. However the mechanics of your idea does seem to revolve around allot of npcs..




Well you quoted my idea for Ranks. :)



Well, the NPCs should be targets - something to interact with while the PVP comes to you. Something to hold you there and keep you there. I would rather that they don't get in the way of the PVP - if there was a way for the NPCs to get "distracted", "hacked" or whatever to get them off the field (except the objective NPCs) as soon as PVP arrived, I would love it!

The objectives would revolve around NPCs or Space Objects (Hacking, archaeology, whatever) - because that's what this game offers for points of interest. Otherwise we're back to the "sit at beacon and wait idea".

If I can get better at completing certain objectives, then i will do so - but if it's more expensive, or harder to do, then PVP can ruin it - bringing the true challenge of the unpredictable. I would even say that we should be able to activate warp bubbles in the actual Plexes, or some way to hack some module in a plex to activate a warp bubble effect that stops people from warping out of the fight. This is how badly I want PVP to happen on these objectives. The problem is NPCs always can be a hassle in actual fights, especially with EWAR - jamming, tracking disrupting target painting really **** with PVP and that is really stupid.


Objective Ideas would be as follows :

-Destroy 6 Industrials as they warp in, 1 minute apart.

-Hack 5 modules protecting a logistics relay point.

-Deposit 5,000 ORE into this container to help with logistics production

- Deliver 100 Militants to this Space station to protect it from assault.





I'd rather there weren't 100 NPC's waiting at these sitse. Just a couple that can be disposed of and then something to do other than sit.... there.... waiting... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Where I am.

Wendi Wu
Curiously Incompetent
The Glory Holers
#53 - 2011-10-07 18:57:21 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Thanks for your support of my thread.

I'll be continuing to summarize my ideas and try and give solid responses to players about my thoughts as well. I'm trying to focus on fresh ideas, rather than rehash the hundreds of things already often repeated about the current mechanics.

I'm hoping to get players to think outside of what has been said and take a fresh approach.


Most of us aren't posting in this thread to support you. We're posting in this thread because the devblog's given us hope that CCP is willing to do some basic fixes to FW.

Your ideas would take a massive amount of development resources and would take years to make it to play. The basic fixes that I and many other people have listed could probably be done in an afternoon.

So from a cost-benefit point of view, it's an absolute no-brainer for CCP to do these basic fixes first. Something as simple as "make plexes spawn throughout the day rather than at downtime" would probably increase the FW population by 10% all by itself!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#54 - 2011-10-07 19:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Bloodpetal wrote:
[quote=Cearain][quote=Bloodpetal][quote=Cearain][quote=Bloodpetal]


Well, the NPCs should be targets - something to interact with while the PVP comes to you. Something to hold you there and keep you there. I would rather that they don't get in the way of the PVP - if there was a way for the NPCs to get "distracted", "hacked" or whatever to get them off the field (except the objective NPCs) as soon as PVP arrived, I would love it!..



Ok at least we both agree pvp should be how systems are taken.

Now the problem with stopping npcs "as soon as pvp arrive[s]" is by that time unless you had some sort of pve repper fit you wll likely have had your tank eaten away. Result - you warp out.

If you want pvp, then leave the npcs out of it. That way people can fit their ships purely for pvp. Just let the militia players know where all the plexes are being captured and they can respond. this can be done with a dedicated chat channel that players can't type in but gives a message like "Cearain, frigate, minor, Auga" It's really pretty easy.


I'm not sure waiting for success at hackng is better than waiting for a button. Plus I don't really want to have to take up a slot to fit a hacking module. Sorry but the whole hacking deal is not really lame. I don't see forcing that mechanic on everyone in fw. If you really like the idea of ahckign something , just pretend you are hacking the button while you orbit around it. Its basically the same thing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#55 - 2011-10-07 19:17:31 UTC
You're adding more pve, I already dont do the pve FW has to offer. I would rather undock and blow up my own ship then mission and adding more would not add enjoyment. If I wanted to run cargo/mining/combat shoot boring Red Cross opjectives I would be in either High Sec or Null in a carrier.

The best thing CCP could do is toss out all Mission and Plex NPCs. I get you want FW to help build up corps, but Low Sec isn't the place for industry corps, or Mission corps. Low sec is a place to undock and shoot the guy not blue, the guy trying to shoot you or just anyone you fancy as long as your willing to deal with the issue this tosses out.

Makes me weep when I see Hulks in Low sec, cause its like putting cream cakes in front of fat people. Everyone knows whats about to happen, its just a question of time, and how messy.

I'll state again, The more PVP based FW is the better it will be. If people want to build up corps or grow as an industrial power, then there is this candy land place of safety that offers pretty much like for like options.

Not for nothing, but many a corp has grown in FW. My own for one. Anything else would not appeal to the people that live thier, not on mass. Anyone who would like to move to Low Sec to do anything other then pVp is either making drugs or about to be farmed for kills.

Low sec is a pirate playground and FW Warzone.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#56 - 2011-10-07 19:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Wendi Wu wrote:


Most of us aren't posting in this thread to support you. We're posting in this thread because the devblog's given us hope that CCP is willing to do some basic fixes to FW.

Your ideas would take a massive amount of development resources and would take years to make it to play. The basic fixes that I and many other people have listed could probably be done in an afternoon.

So from a cost-benefit point of view, it's an absolute no-brainer for CCP to do these basic fixes first. Something as simple as "make plexes spawn throughout the day rather than at downtime" would probably increase the FW population by 10% all by itself!



They're doing this as a feature.


What are you basing your assumption that it would take years to implement this? If they're refocusing ALL THEIR RESOURCES to make EVE better, and the best they can muster is some "basic fixes" then there is no hope for CCP.


If the most that comes out of this for FW is some basic Fixes you should all be offended.



Second, I thanked for supporting MY THREAD - not my ideas. Reading is good.

Where I am.

Wendi Wu
Curiously Incompetent
The Glory Holers
#57 - 2011-10-07 19:41:00 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
What are you basing your assumption that it would take years to implement this? If they're refocusing ALL THEIR RESOURCES to make EVE better, and the best they can muster is some "basic fixes" then there is no hope for CCP.

If the most that comes out of this for FW is some basic Fixes you should all be offended.


There is very little chance that CCP will rewrite the entire FW system in time for the winter expansion.

But there IS a chance that they'll do the basic fixes that everyone has been asking for over and over and over again. Make plexes respawn throughout the day, make allied miltias blue to each other, increase LP rewards for PvP, balance NPCs, etc. And that's what all the FW people posting to this thread are asking for.

Obviously you don't care about these basic fixes, and that's fine, since it doesn't sound like you actually do FW anyway. But those of us who take part in factional warfare DO care about them, very much. And doing these simple fixes would hugely improve the game for us.
Kuan Yida
Huang Yinglong
Electus Matari
#58 - 2011-10-07 19:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuan Yida
Quote:
There is very little chance that CCP will rewrite the entire FW system in time for the winter expansion.

But there IS a chance that they'll do the basic fixes that everyone has been asking for over and over and over again. Make plexes respawn throughout the day, make allied miltias blue to each other, increase LP rewards for PvP, balance NPCs, etc. And that's what all the FW people posting to this thread are asking for.

Obviously you don't care about these basic fixes, and that's fine, since it doesn't sound like you actually do FW anyway. But those of us who take part in factional warfare DO care about them, very much. And doing these simple fixes would hugely improve the game for us.


I strongly second Wendi. I think a really large amount of Bloodpetal's proposed re-design is being devoted to PvE and NPC related changes. Being a manager of software development and also UI myself, I think this sort of stuff will be way to big to get into a winter release, much less ever.

Some relatively small tweaks would actually improve the current FW experience for the current FW players substantially, and they have all been listed here already.

Also, I've been in Faction War since inception, and Bloodpetal is correct that those of us who have stuck it out are in it for the PvP, not the PvE. The best changes are ones that will either

a) Make PvP more rewarding/lucractive, or
b) Create opportunities for more/better PvP

Looking at BloodPetal's kill record on the Minmatar KB, it's pretty clear PvP is not the major goal. 42 kills in a year of play? I've gotten that easily in a week or less myself.

This is not to disparage the non-PvPers. However, the core constituency for FW are currently small gang (not 100-pilot fleet) PvPers.

The dragon knight treasures the state, friendship, duty, promises, kindness, vengeance, honor, and righteousness more than his own life._ _- The Way of the Dragon Warrior Random Posts from Auga

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#59 - 2011-10-07 19:51:04 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Ok at least we both agree pvp should be how systems are taken.

Now the problem with stopping npcs "as soon as pvp arrive[s]" is by that time unless you had some sort of pve repper fit you wll likely have had your tank eaten away. Result - you warp out.

If you want pvp, then leave the npcs out of it. That way people can fit their ships purely for pvp. Just let the militia players know where all the plexes are being captured and they can respond. this can be done with a dedicated chat channel that players can't type in but gives a message like "Cearain, frigate, minor, Auga" It's really pretty easy.


I'm not sure waiting for success at hackng is better than waiting for a button. Plus I don't really want to have to take up a slot to fit a hacking module. Sorry but the whole hacking deal is not really lame. I don't see forcing that mechanic on everyone in fw. If you really like the idea of ahckign something , just pretend you are hacking the button while you orbit around it. Its basically the same thing.




I wrote one sentence revolving around hacking. The hacking idea was an example. If I really wanted Hacking I'd have written a 3000 word post about hacking. The possibilities can really be anything, bringing all the tools to the table and acknowledging them is how the creative process works.


I also think that producing points of interest is relevant. If you have to go to 5 different places in a site and XYZ them, then you move around, rather than one single beacon. This actually means that multiple locations can be of interest rather than one position on the field. Meaning that there's the potential for something more interesting to happen in a plex.

The sites are designed to attract people to a position. They need SOMETHING in them though. Having empty sites is pointless. If each battlefield is the same, then there's nothing to really mention there. That's the problem they currently have. Being able to say, "Well, we have to do this objective in here, I know we can bring these ships to do this fast and get out" means that there is a challenge, both on an objective level and a PVP level. Getting rewards for it also means that there has to be some guarantee of a challenge for the sites. I'd rather people walked into the site knowing they'll get some solid LP for one of these sites that has true PVP potential, rather than the FW missions which take you into the middle of nowhere and are easily farmed with no true potential for PVP.


Wendi Wu wrote:

Obviously you don't care about these basic fixes, and that's fine, since it doesn't sound like you actually do FW anyway. But those of us who take part in factional warfare DO care about them, very much. And doing these simple fixes would hugely improve the game for us.


I think the basic fixes won't really fix much. You won't really gain new players to FW at this point for the fixes. You're just appeasing a group of players that don't care much about it and have "stuck through it" for other reasons. The reason CCP has not cared about your fixes is because they aren't clearly a big enough problem for you to leave the FW. So why bother? Why put resources towards something that's clearly not a deal breaker?

You're not fixing the REAL PROBLEMS and issues that revolve around new players coming in to FW and having a very short lifespan. FW was intended to help introduce people to PVP. It's not just a Veteran PVP "Arena" - not its intended purpose. Most new players leave very early on because they realize they can't have fun. There's also the question of how new players can't get involved in the system on any level, because it's all separated and not interconnected.


The basic fixes are only appeasing to the players already there, who have been there for years, and who will probably not care if anything changes. They don't care about PLEXes because noone does them. They don't care about conquest, because noone does it.

The reasons are pretty clear to me, apparently CCP doesn't get it, so I'm providing an alternate vision for them to examine and see what COULD BE, even if they don't implement it now, or get one step closer to it and plan to iterate on it as time goes on. But, arguing from a position of weakness won't get anywhere...

Saying "PLEASE CCP GIVE US THESE THREE MEASLY LITTLE THINGS TO MAKE US HAPPY" isn't going to make FW better. It's not going to make your experience better, and it's not going to give CCP a vision beyond those little things.

Aim high while you have the opportunity.

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#60 - 2011-10-07 20:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Kuan Yida wrote:

I strongly second Wendi. I think a really large amount of Bloodpetal's proposed re-design is being devoted to PvE and NPC related changes. Being a manager of software development and also UI myself, I think this sort of stuff will be way to big to get into a winter release, much less ever.


This content has nothing to do with PVE.


IF you have to deliver materials to a location for an assault, that means there's logistics. That means that there's opportunities for PVP. Having a single constellation to attack means people will focus there and attack that one location for PVP reasons. The impetus will be LP + ISK for actually putting yourself in the line of fire.


Kuan Yida wrote:

Some relatively small tweaks would actually improve the current FW experience for the current FW players substantially, and they have all been listed here already.

Also, I've been in Faction War since inception, and Bloodpetal is correct that those of us who have stuck it out are in it for the PvP, not the PvE. The best changes are ones that will either

a) Make PvP more rewarding/lucractive, or
b) Create opportunities for more/better PvP



The core consistency of FW clearly doesn't care about the problems with FW or they would have LEFT. Lol Such simple logic to answer the question as to why YOU DON'T GET the changes you want. CCP doesn't care to fix these issues because if they were serious enough for those already there to leave over, you WOULD HAVE. The problem with FW is attracting new players and fresh faces to the game.



Kuan Yida wrote:

Looking at BloodPetal's kill record on the Minmatar KB, it's pretty clear PvP is not the major goal. 42 kills in a year and a half of play? I've gotten that easily in a week or less myself.

This is not to disparage the non-PvPers. However, the core constituency for FW are currently small gang (not 100-pilot fleet) PvPers.


If you want to see if I was REALLY a PVE-er you'd check my Tribal Liberation Standing Rank. My TLF rank is rank 2. Hardly more than 2.0 standing with TLF. That means I did almost NOTHING for TLF. Maybe about 30 minutes most in PVE content. You'd also realize I left FW about 7 months ago. I flew for both the Gallente and the Minmatar Militias, and most of my kills won't appear on the Militia Killboard because I did "small gang warfare" that didn't involve other militia pilots.

I have about 120 kills during my time in the militia.

If you want to say "Hey look, I get more kills in a week" - uh, sure, whatever. The amount of kills you get doesn't give you any qualifications on what the bearing of this discussion has. And that's the issue here. You don't care about what other people can be playing and doing in FW. If this devolves into some discussion about my PVP skill, then get over yourself. I don't equate quantity with quality.


You're worried that your "precious PVP arena" is going to be taken away. It's not, get over it. PVP will be there. You need new and better improvements so you get more "targets".

Where I am.