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Faction Warfare: Moving Forward.....

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#681 - 2011-12-10 11:20:00 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:
A few things here, and a few things from Hans' proposal I wanted to comment on:

PvE is still an issue, but I don't think the solution is very complicated. The problems are simple:
-PvP ships (particularly passive tanks) are not ideal for plexes
-individual alts can speed-tank them

To fix both problems, rebalance the NPCs. Make there be ONE set of them to clear out, and balance their total EHP so that (for example) 2 players with PvP ships, appropriate for the plex size, could wipe them out fast enough to avoid screwing up their tanks. Also give them webs, or some other anti-frig buff.

If done correctly, the result should be that:
-PvP ships can steam-roll the NPCs without changing out your fit, and then be free to PvP
-the rebalanced NPCs prevent single alts in cheap ships from running larger plexes

Also (depending on balance) it could promote small groups by keeping it practical as a solo'er, but making that much more smooth with a partner.

Remember that if we remove NPCs entirely, that it will be even EASIER for alts to run the plexing war. It needs to be harder for them, and easier for PvPers. This may not be a flawless proposal, but I'm sure many will agree on the results that need to be achieved.




I agree with allot of what you say here. I think ewar is a decent answer for alts taking plexes. I still think we can do without the npc all together. But if they have to leave them in then there are options. What you describe seems tolerable but I would add give the npcs lots of target painters and webs.

Here is a discussion I had with superchair on the same issue. There is another proposal with how npcs would work. I think its a bit better at promoting pvp even though it eliminates alts in rookie ships doing plexes.

Cearain wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
The whole NPC situation is tricky. Completely removing NPCs will give rise to just everyone and their mother making several trial (or non trial) accounts with recycleable, untrained, stabbed plexing alts in cheap little frigs. NPCs serve some purpose in this fashion. I believe that EWAR should be completely removed from all NPCs in FW plexes (or at the very least, have the number of EWAR NPCs severely reduced in a plex). Another Issue at least with major plexes is NPCs take too long to die if you're solo/in a small gang. I think the EHP of the NPC battleships/Elite EWAR boats should be reduced, making them easier to dispatch with a BC. A full spawn (at least in terms of missiles) is devastating and the DPS should be lowered (but increase explosion velocity to help with smaller targets, ie, kill afk speed tankers), maybe even nerf npc dps across the board some. The overall function of the NPCs should be to force players to at least bring an appropiately sized ship and to eliminate the "untrained alts" so people just can't afk cap plexes with them. There's a lot of tweaking to be done with the NPCs but I think this is a step in the right direction.



Ok I agree that the npc part is tricky. I think ccp can do away with them completely, but I agree your concerns are valid. I like the idea that the missiles would have increased explosion velocity. Along the same lines consider these ideas.

1) Have an "alarm beacon" spawn say at 3minutes and 6 minutes for a minor and say 3 times for a medium 4 times for a major. f th alarm is not destroyed in 2 minutes the rats as described below will spawn. The minor alarm will tank 50 dps. The medium wil lank 150 dps. The major (bc and down) will tank 350 and the major open will tank 500. These are rough numbers. They are pretty low because not all fw pilots have top skills. Moreover some pvp fits do not do allot of dps. For example a merlin might have 2 neuts insead of rockets launchers.


2) Make it so the all the rats have *lots* of target painters and missiles. *No other ewar* (edit I suppose webs would be ok) The target painters and missiles would mean that they can not be speed tanked by fast frigates.

This would make it so pvpers could still kill the rats without having to fit a lame pve tank. Yet noob ships and t1 frigates would not be able to tank the npcs and run the major sites.


The beacon alarm would be paused when an enemy enters the plex. It would then start going if the enemy left. I think this would solve the problem and people running the plexes could still fit a proper buffer pvp tank. What do you think?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#682 - 2011-12-11 09:20:47 UTC
I think there are many ways that NPCs could be rebalanced to make gameplay better. The problems are simple enough. Don't penalize PvP fits, and nerf the effectiveness of alts. Any method (be it one of our visions or not) that will make this happen, will be welcome.

---

As far as timer speed, number restrictions, and boarders go... I feel that you (Cearain, and maybe others) have a somewhat irrational fear of blobs... You manage to find fault in many suggestions because blobing could theoretically get in the way of fun. While you may have had more experiences than I that validate these concerns, I just can't believe that it's enough of a problem to completely invalidate the ideas. And in the case of the last few posts, I only see ways of reducing blobbing, not promoting it.

As examples:

In the theoretical boarder mechanic, I can not imagine that one militia will be able to blob up all boarder systems for hours on end and be invulnerable, AND completely squash all small gang activity (especially if number-restrictions on plexes were in place... see next).

In the theoretical number-restricted plex, if your small gang is inside, then what does it matter that the enemy is blobbing the accel gate?.... isn't that an example of how it PREVENTS blobbing? The large numbers that the enemy has can not all enter the plex and BLOB you. Your smaller gang can easily sneak around them and enter subsequent plexes, and remain safe from being blobbed. Their only option would be to match your numbers and give you a more reasonable fight.

Then for timer speed, if there's no effect after say 3 or 4 players being inside, then it gives no advantage to blob up to like 20-40 in one plex (assuming number restrictions are not in place to prevent that). So blobbing would be no more effective than having a small gang 5-10 strong...

---

I am also a blob hater, for sure. That's why I'm talking about these things. And I do my best no to let blobs ruin my fun. If I can work around them, I do, and if changes are made to help me avoid them further, even better! I just think we can spice things up and generate more diversity in the fighting. Blobbing WILL occur, but if fighting of all types increases, then all play-styles benefit. Right?

---

One other quick comment on the winning side getting flooded. I think the problem that you foresee could be avoided by including additional balancing to keep it desirable to be on the losing side. Sure the quantity of agents in low-sec might be shot, but if the rewards for taking back systems increased as your side started losing, or something of that nature, the balance could be kept.

Plus they need to make plexing itself more profitable. It all needs to come together. One idea may rely on another, just like concentrating the fighting to a smaller number of systems (via boarders) but implementing anti-blob mechanics in order to keep the fight-quality high.

.....god damn text-wall! X don't hate me

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#683 - 2011-12-11 14:59:56 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:
I think there are many ways that NPCs could be rebalanced to make gameplay better. The problems are simple enough. Don't penalize PvP fits, and nerf the effectiveness of alts. Any method (be it one of our visions or not) that will make this happen, will be welcome.



I think we can step back even further and state what we want in the end.

I want to be able to get 4-7 quality small scale pvp fights in 2 hours of play. I *don't* want them to be prearranged arena style fights or asking for fights in local.

I have about 2 hours from the time I put the kids to bed until I need to go to bed myself. I'm tired of telling my wife I am going to play a computer game by myself for 2 hours and have absolutely no fights that are even half way exciting happen in that time.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#684 - 2011-12-12 03:00:29 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:
As far as timer speed, number restrictions, and boarders go... I feel that you (Cearain, and maybe others) have a somewhat irrational fear of blobs... You manage to find fault in many suggestions because blobing could theoretically get in the way of fun. While you may have had more experiences than I that validate these concerns, I just can't believe that it's enough of a problem to completely invalidate the ideas. And in the case of the last few posts, I only see ways of reducing blobbing, not promoting it.

As examples:

In the theoretical boarder mechanic, I can not imagine that one militia will be able to blob up all boarder systems for hours on end and be invulnerable, AND completely squash all small gang activity (especially if number-restrictions on plexes were in place... see next).

In the theoretical number-restricted plex, if your small gang is inside, then what does it matter that the enemy is blobbing the accel gate?.... isn't that an example of how it PREVENTS blobbing? The large numbers that the enemy has can not all enter the plex and BLOB you. Your smaller gang can easily sneak around them and enter subsequent plexes, and remain safe from being blobbed. Their only option would be to match your numbers and give you a more reasonable fight.


Ok several things. With the small number of players that actually do plexing now the borders wouldn't be a problem. Its just that it is limitting so if the numbers ever grew by 10 or even 100 thousand then there would be blobs. Why create mechanics that are limitted. Even if a large corp takes over you will see the blobbing. It seems foreign now because fw doesn't matter and its broken. But when I first started reikoku had a short stint with minmatar. That one corp lead to blobs. It made it impossible for us to do anything. I think the gallente were in that situation at certain times. But I wasn't there so they can speak for themselves.

But the fear of ccp creating a mechanic where the blob = iwin button is not an irrational fear.

If you are in the plex and the other side can send endless streams of reinforcements in and you can't they will win the plex.
If the blob camps the accel gate or even the gates into the system then they can send in their ships and will eventually whittle what you have down and win all the plexes. If the systems that are in play are spread out they can not do this and the other side will be able to make strategic strikes throughout the multiple regions.

Its really pretty straight forward if you want blobs to be split up require the pilots to be in several distant areas at once. If you concentrate where the pilots must be you invite blobs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Draco Rosso
State War Academy
Caldari State
#685 - 2011-12-12 14:38:24 UTC
When do we get to hear about the CSM meeting notes????
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#686 - 2011-12-12 14:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Draco Rosso wrote:
When do we get to hear about the CSM meeting notes????


I would keep an eye on the Jita Park speakers corner, they'll be posted there first, and likely a Dev Blog will too announcing that the CSM minutes are up. Usually takes them a week at least, or months in the case of the Incarna notes but these ones should be far less controversial and needing of "oversight" from CCP.

From what I've gathered things have been pretty positive so far, looks like the summer expansion will be much like Crucible in that Hilmar promised "no more Jesus features" (Turning 5 loaves and 2 fishes into 10,000 new subscribers) so basically the summer expansion will be further development on core features. It should be mentioned that Faction Warfare was the first and primary thing mentioned as an example by Soundwave in his recent Mintchip interview.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#687 - 2011-12-12 18:54:30 UTC
I get where you're coming from Cearain. And I can't agree enough that win-by-blob is incredibly annoying when you don't enjoy that play style.

My position remains though, that some of these ideas being thrown around (or maybe some things we haven't even thought of) could at the very least help our play style. We cannot ask for perfection, or the abolishment of the power of a blob, because that would be an unreasonable restriction. If you have lots of allies, you should be able to go out in force. What I want to see are more ways to stay under that radar and do smaller, more meaningful things. The blobs can carry on and those players shouldn't be required to suffer at all, but likewise, the occupancy mechanics shouldn't allow steam-rolling based on numbers alone.

I did in fact consider the situation of the enemy sending in continuous reinforcements to a numbers-restricted plex, and yes it's still not as perfect a system as would be ideal to players like us. But would it not be better than what we have now? where the whole blob just lands on you and you're immediately effed. I think good players could make a hell of a fight out of the enemy-reinforcement situation... which is exactly what we're after here Blink.

And what about diving deeper into boarder balance? Something like: allowing you to take a non-boardered system but it would require more effort? and thus opening a brand new boarder. Basically just making boardered systems easier to take than random other systems, creating the choice: do I want to be on the front-lines? or do I want to sneak behind the lines? (yay choices!)

There are places we can go with these ideas to make things better for us without the constant blob-fear.

I do have to comment that your ideal fight-per-hour statistic sounds unrealistic to me. Not by a whole lot, but your desires could only really be fulfilled by a genuine, dedicated, alliance-tournament-style arena mechanic (which I actually think there should be some form of... not for FW though). Personally, I'm satisfied by one truly quality fight in a 2-hour session, or a few decent ones plus a gank or two.

If the venues for fighting get some variation, we will spend less time dancing around and looking for a good fight, and more time in quality combat.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#688 - 2011-12-13 16:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Damassys Kadesh wrote:

I do have to comment that your ideal fight-per-hour statistic sounds unrealistic to me. Not by a whole lot, but your desires could only really be fulfilled by a genuine, dedicated, alliance-tournament-style arena mechanic (which I actually think there should be some form of... not for FW though). Personally, I'm satisfied by one truly quality fight in a 2-hour session, or a few decent ones plus a gank or two..


I think they should strive for 4-7 quality small scale pvp fights in 2 hours that do not involve prearranged arenas.

The problem is ccp has never really *tried* to accomplish this. So the people who play eve can't imagine how it could be done. People like myself, and probably several hundred thousand others, who would like to play eve if they accomplished thatm tend to either not play because they hear its a boring waiting game, (like hunting) or unsubscribe.

CCP always seems to lose focus. FW plexing is about some small scale pvp some blobbing and some pve versus npcs. But it does none of them well. Eve has lots of pvp and blobbing opportunities. It's time ccp *focused* on small scale pvp opportunities. FW plexing is the obvious choice for this.

With current eve I agree you are lucky if you get one or two quality pvp fights in 2 hours. Often you will get none. But this is not satisfactory.

If CCP really said ok our goal is to make it so people who do fw plexing will get 4-7 quality small scale pvp fights per 2 hours I bet they could do it. Would they get it right off the bat? No it will take iterations. But they could do it - or come very close. Would it be worth it? I don't see how anyone with a brain could think it wouldn't massively boost the numbers of eve subscriptions.

I'm not the only one in the world that doesn't have 5 hour blocks of time I can dedicate to a computer game - even if I am apparently rare in the eve community.

CCP should develop some pvp mechanics for casual players.

There is no need for fw plexing to accomodate people who want to blob up. There are already plenty of opportunities to blob up in sov null sec and other places if you want blob. And you can always blob up and roam in low sec or null sec. Why does fw plexing have to be yet another mechanism to blob up?

The problem is many people think that fw pvp should be some sort of step on the way to null sec style blob pvp. But that is stupid because it doesn't expand what new eden has to offer. FW should offer something entirely unique from null sec pvp. It should offer pvp for casual players who don't have huge amounts of time to dedicate waiting around for fleets to form and dancing around reshipping. It should offer pvp for those who just want to jump in a ship and go out shooting people for a couple of hours.

Just my opinion.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Draco Rosso
State War Academy
Caldari State
#689 - 2011-12-15 15:34:03 UTC
News?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#690 - 2011-12-16 02:05:05 UTC
Draco Rosso wrote:
News?



I haven't heard any have you?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
J Kunjeh
#691 - 2011-12-17 23:07:28 UTC
Bumping this because it's a damn good thread that needs more attention from the players and CCP. Fixing FW should be HIGH on the priority list for the next expansion, IMHO.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#692 - 2011-12-18 01:07:57 UTC
Just chiming in here now that FW plexing has changed. That small change to FW that has made big differences in the amount of fights I've been getting. Hell, even yesterday I was in a 2v3 in a minor plex. I am usually on for about 2-3 hours at night and get possibly 1-2 fights.

I'm on later than the East Coast crowd usually stays up. Before the plexing change my M.O. was to log in right after a big fight happened and then nothing. It would be known to be dead and people would run FW missions or play LoL. Now with plexes spawning throughout the day, anyone can jump into their ship of choice and go Plex/PVP. There's people who used to come out in nothing but faction frigs that now come out in T1 frigs or Dessies so they can get a fight.

Good job in the FW change and I'm looking forward to hearing more about it in the coming months!

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#693 - 2011-12-18 01:47:37 UTC
I don't know if FW was intended to be a 'pick up and play' PvP part of EVE...

But considering that every single new pilot to New Eden asks about joining a militia in the first days...

This is of course because the military career agents direct them that direction. Kind of funny how CCP made a big deal about NPE (even investing it into the CQ) but kind of 'drop the ball' after the career agents by FW being a huge let down.

I'd love for FW to be an insta-fight mechanic - literally designed simply to PvP without profit at a surface level. If you were to pursue FW as a career, it should have bonuses and profits that award skill, not time like most of EVE. We have something of a reward system in place, but it could be so much more.

Imagine if the FW store had layers that were accessible based on rank - now you've given an incentive to PvP (especially those who only wish to PvP, not grind missions or play nullsec politics). EVE would benefit from a lot of fast-paced players - the draw being FW.

This is all speculation of course and there are lots of ideas on how to at least fix FW...but what I think frustrates most of us is not what's wrong with FW, but how much could be right with FW. It is an incredible mechanic that could be expanded heavily on - providing another great feature to grow New Eden.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#694 - 2011-12-19 20:22:13 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Just chiming in here now that FW plexing has changed. That small change to FW that has made big differences in the amount of fights I've been getting. Hell, even yesterday I was in a 2v3 in a minor plex. I am usually on for about 2-3 hours at night and get possibly 1-2 fights.

I'm on later than the East Coast crowd usually stays up. Before the plexing change my M.O. was to log in right after a big fight happened and then nothing. It would be known to be dead and people would run FW missions or play LoL. Now with plexes spawning throughout the day, anyone can jump into their ship of choice and go Plex/PVP. There's people who used to come out in nothing but faction frigs that now come out in T1 frigs or Dessies so they can get a fight.

Good job in the FW change and I'm looking forward to hearing more about it in the coming months!



Thanks for the report! I've been a bit busy out of game myself, but I love hearing about whether or not the FW plex change has impacted the region in a practical sense. If it is actually encouraging more plexing, than it was definitely the right move. Needless to say, that doesnt mean that plexes are "fixed" in any way, shape, or form - just that hopefully the one tweak CCP implemented was at least a net positive for the feature.

Thanks for your input too, SandKid and J Kunjeh - I always love hearing from non-militia types that understand how much potential the feature has. This has been my argument all along for CCP's increased attention to lowsec and FW - there may only be a couple thousand of us that still participate actively, but in these threads we keep seeing more and more individuals like yourself who have said "I WANT to like FW, but don't participate because its borked". And rightfully so.

I really believe the impact that improving and overhauling the FW system will have reaches far beyond just the active participant count. We simply have to remember the large "diaspora" of players understandably frustrated by the mechanics who moved elsewhere so they could have a greater impact on the the sandbox.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Draco Rosso
State War Academy
Caldari State
#695 - 2011-12-20 15:42:19 UTC
updates?
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#696 - 2011-12-21 02:11:02 UTC
Draco Rosso wrote:
updates?

It would seem not...
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#697 - 2011-12-21 03:18:16 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


It should be mentioned that Faction Warfare was the first and primary thing mentioned as an example by Soundwave in his recent Mintchip interview.


I just jizzed my in my pants. *ahhh*
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#698 - 2011-12-21 17:08:49 UTC
Super Chair wrote:

I just jizzed my in my pants. *ahhh*


I just hope it doesn't turn out to be premature ejaculation :)

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Galatica789
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#699 - 2011-12-22 15:10:37 UTC
Fix Nullsec!!!!!!!!!!!! Nerf Highsec!!!!.....................................................wait....................................
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#700 - 2011-12-22 15:23:25 UTC
From Selenes blog:

"Factional Warfare & Wormholes

This was all about one feature that could have been amazing and a feature that is already amazing but could use more love. Both are front and center in terms of things that CCP wants to iterate on in the coming year. FW will most likely start with a series of minor tweaks before introducing some new elements that breathe new life into the feature. The Wormholes discussion focused a lot on what it's like to live there and how the economic opportunity scales with other EVE 'lifestyles'."


http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com/2011/12/csm-6-december-summit-report.html


you can ask follow ups here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=49408&find=unread


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815