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Caldari Navy Leviathan in Luminaire

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CCP Falcon
#61 - 2013-01-20 00:36:54 UTC
Regardless, we're getting very off topic.

Stick to live events guys.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#62 - 2013-01-20 02:51:11 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Regardless, we're getting very off topic.

Stick to live events guys.


CCP Falcon wrote:
As someone who is a qualified Structural, Electrical, Robotic, Mechanical and Hydraulic design and maintenance Engineer


So, for live events/story in general, when you do something like ram a large ship into a space station or we do something like fire high-velocity ammo and missiles at a planet en masse, it might be appreciated if physics got a nod every now and then.


Nitnod stuff because my education is Astronautical Engineering - ie designing and building spaceships. Yes, really.

It isn't re-entry if the object wasn't launched from the body whose atmosphere/hydrosphere it is entering, just entry (MSL didn't reenter Martian atmosphere, it entered the Martian atmosphere).

Regardless of whether or not an asteroid, comet, spaceship, etc breakup on entry they will impart the same total energy to the world system. Whether the atmosphere catches on fire from the shotgun effect of a breakup or from the impact of one large body on the surface does not change that.

Even from a relative standstill, the potential energy of a 100 m radius sphere with 1-m thick Titanium Carbide skin filled with air (at sea level and 15 C), an object with a mass of 618,300 tons, at 500 km in altitude is 3.017 x 10^15 J (0.3 the impact energy of the object that created Meteor Crater, Az). (PE=m*g*h, g being 9.758 m/s² for Gallente Prime, but another whole set of issues arise when I look at the system data.) Given the effectively magic tech that would even be on a New Eden water freighter (things like Graviton Reactor Units or even the relatively simple Fusion Reactor), I can only assume that the energy release might be higher for various reasons.

I think it is scientifically reasonable to assert that the impact of a 500 m x 10 m x 20 m spacecraft falling from the heavens on a ~10 m/s^2 surface gravity world is likely to result in a Tunguska type event. If it breaks up; you get more of them, smaller, spread out across the planets surface, but still have the same total energy imparted.


So, how does the approve link to Live Events and the Titan above Caldari Prime?

Throwing a Leviathan at a planet, at speed, is a world-ending event.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#63 - 2013-01-20 05:24:00 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
the US military still want's good old battleships (or actually, they want a mobile very heavy artillery plattform)

They were VERY glad to have the Missouri in 1991, precise fire with 410mm rounds is something VERY scary

however, it is too expensive to maintain, but if they had the money, they would reactivate it or build a new one, probably something very different from what we know as a Battleship today, but the combination of a huge tank and high dps (speaking in eve terms) is still very very attractive


As a former USN member I can tell you why the US navy doesn't want a battleship anymore.

We've entered in an age that 25 miles control range doesn't cut it anymore. Also thanks to modern counter measures a battleship's control range is probably an effective 10 miles against anything trying to kill it.

A Super Carrier to this day still maintains 300+ mile control range, anything entering that get's id, targeted, and death with.

Also with the emergence of the naval rail gun going into production the 40mm mach 15 shells out-damages the battleships 410 on kinetic impact alone with accuracy of 2-3 inches. Battleships can miss as much as 50 feet+ without ripping the whole ship apart and placing new electronic systems in it.

A ship as small as a destroyer can mount a naval rail gun, and giving it the effective control range of 150 miles. Does not require an armored magazine. Goes much faster. Has a smaller radar T return. Can dodge a dumb fire torpedo. Can sufficiently devoid airspace of modern aircraft. and ultimately if they had to go toe to toe with a destroyer they can and WILL sink a battleship, hence the name.

Cruiser's control range is whatever the range of the missiles you shove on it are, which to my knowledge the publically known range is still much further than any battleship.

Battleships 3k people
Destroyers 60 people
Cruisers 120- people

Anyways if you guys want I can draw up what I think the the old freighter looks like.

Also know that Caldari state was probably fledgling at the time, things like standardization wasn't a big thing possibly because there where so many different competitors building ships, it was likely ALL caldari vessels of the day where 'unique' and even if mass produced probably didn't stay standard long.

I mean I have been on two different Nimitz class carriers and the two where entirely different despite supposed to be the same design.

Also based on current doctrines today.
Turning a freighter into a carrier is not unheard of. Britain and many of her allies have plans and modules already built if the need ever arose.

I mean if I can see a Charon being turned into an invasion carrier. All one would have to do it install launch tubes all the way down one side and load her up with nothing but dropships.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#64 - 2013-01-20 05:25:36 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Regardless, we're getting very off topic.

Stick to live events guys.


CCP Falcon wrote:
As someone who is a qualified Structural, Electrical, Robotic, Mechanical and Hydraulic design and maintenance Engineer


So, for live events/story in general, when you do something like ram a large ship into a space station or we do something like fire high-velocity ammo and missiles at a planet en masse, it might be appreciated if physics got a nod every now and then.


Nitnod stuff because my education is Astronautical Engineering - ie designing and building spaceships. Yes, really.

It isn't re-entry if the object wasn't launched from the body whose atmosphere/hydrosphere it is entering, just entry (MSL didn't reenter Martian atmosphere, it entered the Martian atmosphere).

Regardless of whether or not an asteroid, comet, spaceship, etc breakup on entry they will impart the same total energy to the world system. Whether the atmosphere catches on fire from the shotgun effect of a breakup or from the impact of one large body on the surface does not change that.

Even from a relative standstill, the potential energy of a 100 m radius sphere with 1-m thick Titanium Carbide skin filled with air (at sea level and 15 C), an object with a mass of 618,300 tons, at 500 km in altitude is 3.017 x 10^15 J (0.3 the impact energy of the object that created Meteor Crater, Az). (PE=m*g*h, g being 9.758 m/s² for Gallente Prime, but another whole set of issues arise when I look at the system data.) Given the effectively magic tech that would even be on a New Eden water freighter (things like Graviton Reactor Units or even the relatively simple Fusion Reactor), I can only assume that the energy release might be higher for various reasons.

I think it is scientifically reasonable to assert that the impact of a 500 m x 10 m x 20 m spacecraft falling from the heavens on a ~10 m/s^2 surface gravity world is likely to result in a Tunguska type event. If it breaks up; you get more of them, smaller, spread out across the planets surface, but still have the same total energy imparted.


So, how does the approve link to Live Events and the Titan above Caldari Prime?

Throwing a Leviathan at a planet, at speed, is a world-ending event.


Did you take in for account of the properties of gal prime? I know air pressure, gravity, density of the atmo, thickness of the atmo, and temperature are big factors in how widespread damage can occur.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#65 - 2013-01-20 06:07:32 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Dex Nederland wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Regardless, we're getting very off topic.

Stick to live events guys.


CCP Falcon wrote:
As someone who is a qualified Structural, Electrical, Robotic, Mechanical and Hydraulic design and maintenance Engineer


So, for live events/story in general, when you do something like ram a large ship into a space station or we do something like fire high-velocity ammo and missiles at a planet en masse, it might be appreciated if physics got a nod every now and then.


Nitnod stuff because my education is Astronautical Engineering - ie designing and building spaceships. Yes, really.

It isn't re-entry if the object wasn't launched from the body whose atmosphere/hydrosphere it is entering, just entry (MSL didn't reenter Martian atmosphere, it entered the Martian atmosphere).

Regardless of whether or not an asteroid, comet, spaceship, etc breakup on entry they will impart the same total energy to the world system. Whether the atmosphere catches on fire from the shotgun effect of a breakup or from the impact of one large body on the surface does not change that.

Even from a relative standstill, the potential energy of a 100 m radius sphere with 1-m thick Titanium Carbide skin filled with air (at sea level and 15 C), an object with a mass of 618,300 tons, at 500 km in altitude is 3.017 x 10^15 J (0.3 the impact energy of the object that created Meteor Crater, Az). (PE=m*g*h, g being 9.758 m/s² for Gallente Prime, but another whole set of issues arise when I look at the system data.) Given the effectively magic tech that would even be on a New Eden water freighter (things like Graviton Reactor Units or even the relatively simple Fusion Reactor), I can only assume that the energy release might be higher for various reasons.

I think it is scientifically reasonable to assert that the impact of a 500 m x 10 m x 20 m spacecraft falling from the heavens on a ~10 m/s^2 surface gravity world is likely to result in a Tunguska type event. If it breaks up; you get more of them, smaller, spread out across the planets surface, but still have the same total energy imparted.


So, how does the approve link to Live Events and the Titan above Caldari Prime?

Throwing a Leviathan at a planet, at speed, is a world-ending event.


Did you take in for account of the properties of gal prime? I know air pressure, gravity, density of the atmo, thickness of the atmo, and temperature are big factors in how widespread damage can occur.


He also seems to forget that while yes the total energy imparted to system will be the same the small the pieces are the more energy is lost to friction and the increased likelihood of further breakage.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#66 - 2013-01-20 06:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dex Nederland
1) Gallente Prime's surface pressure, atmospheric density, thickness of atmosphere, and average temperature can be approximated as Earth normal. Human begins survived on the world without magic tech in what is assumed to be a pre-Industrial civilization.*

2) I have actually not forgotten the "energy lose to friction." You could impart the total energy of the object/set of objects as a heat injection into the atmosphere. Given sufficient quantity of material at high enough speed, the atmosphere catches fire. The atmosphere at a particular altitude could be the "surface" that is impacted.

Edit: *The properties listed in the database and the planets distance from its star could drive another discussion entirely about the viability of Gallente Prime as an inhabitable world at all, especially one that did not have to undergo extensive terraforming and is maintained by suitable magic tech.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#67 - 2013-01-20 07:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Travasty Space
Dex Nederland wrote:
1) Gallente Prime's surface pressure, atmospheric density, thickness of atmosphere, and average temperature can be approximated as Earth normal. Human begins survived on the world without magic tech in what is assumed to be a pre-Industrial civilization.*

2) I have actually not forgotten the "energy lose to friction." You could impart the total energy of the object/set of objects as a heat injection into the atmosphere. Given sufficient quantity of material at high enough speed, the atmosphere catches fire. The atmosphere at a particular altitude could be the "surface" that is impacted.

Edit: *The properties listed in the database and the planets distance from its star could drive another discussion entirely about the viability of Gallente Prime as an inhabitable world at all, especially one that did not have to undergo extensive terraforming and is maintained by suitable magic tech.


Assuming Earth normal atmosphere then it would take more then a ship breaking apart to ignite it.
Ed: Pieces of a broken up ship I should say.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#68 - 2013-01-20 16:49:23 UTC
I think that depends entirely on the size of the ship/object breaking apart. A 100 m object breaking up into pieces is very different from a 1000 m object of the same materials. Chimeras and Leviathans are big.

I did a first order energy calculation regarding the potential energy of a volume to see what it was. How that energy is impart to the planet varies.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#69 - 2013-01-20 18:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Further more the unknowable factor of shields interfering with the object breaking up and the nastier reactors losing containment during the crash. I don't know if caldari had gravity cores in that era as their primary reactors.

As for Caldari prime, that place is almost in hospital and cold as hell.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
CCP Falcon
#70 - 2013-01-20 18:15:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
Dex Nederland wrote:

So, for live events/story in general, when you do something like ram a large ship into a space station or we do something like fire high-velocity ammo and missiles at a planet en masse, it might be appreciated if physics got a nod every now and then.

So, how does the approve link to Live Events and the Titan above Caldari Prime?

Throwing a Leviathan at a planet, at speed, is a world-ending event.


It was a Chimera, not a Leviathan.

As for events in the past :

I've been running live events now for 4 months. Before that, I was a player.

I didn't write The Empyrean Age. I also didn't write Templar One. As such, what happened within those books is entirely the work of their author.

I agree completely that the physics of a Nyx hitting a station (The Empyrean Age), or a Revelation slamming into a mountain range (Templar One) are well off, but there's nothing I can do about that Smile

With regards to shooting at planets, that's happened once since I started running Live Events and the city it struck was pretty much wiped off the face of a planet.

Regardless, this forum is for discussion of Live Events, not discussion of physics. Posts here need to stay on topic. We can argue physics all day, but the fact of the matter is that what happened in the books happened, and it's set in stone now even though people might not agree with it.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#71 - 2013-01-20 18:58:00 UTC
It is a Leviathan above Caldari Prime. I do not think it would be out-of-character for Heth to throw a dying Titan at Gallente Prime (or Caldari Prime). Which is how the discussion relates to live-events and the idea of using the Caldari Leviathan in a one-off live event.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
CCP Falcon
#72 - 2013-01-20 19:45:17 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
It is a Leviathan above Caldari Prime. I do not think it would be out-of-character for Heth to throw a dying Titan at Gallente Prime (or Caldari Prime). Which is how the discussion relates to live-events and the idea of using the Caldari Leviathan in a one-off live event.


I'm aware it's a Leviathan over Caldari Prime... The initial discussion was about Tovil-Toba and his actions on Gallente Prime, that's what got us onto the physics discussion. P

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#73 - 2013-01-20 22:50:45 UTC
This actually came up in some friendly banter, but it got me thinking.

In the event that the Gallente try anything in regards to Caldari Prime (Coutner-attack, hostage rescue, etc) the Leviathan had orders to warp to Gallente Prime and doomsday the planet or something.

So, knowing this, how much would a live event involving this titan follow standard Eve mechanics? In particular, what's stopping a single Heavy Interdictor from infinipointing the titan to prevent it from entering warp?

For that matter, why has no one in the Gallente navy thought of that before? Is this some kind of special, HIC-immune titan, or are there other ships that could attack Gallente Prime, or were HIC's not around at the writing of Empyrean Age?

If there are no answers for these questions, consider it simply food for thought :)
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#74 - 2013-01-20 23:13:57 UTC
The dust bunnies could install the worlds largest scrambler on luminarie II.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#75 - 2013-01-21 03:30:58 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
This actually came up in some friendly banter, but it got me thinking.

In the event that the Gallente try anything in regards to Caldari Prime (Coutner-attack, hostage rescue, etc) the Leviathan had orders to warp to Gallente Prime and doomsday the planet or something.

So, knowing this, how much would a live event involving this titan follow standard Eve mechanics? In particular, what's stopping a single Heavy Interdictor from infinipointing the titan to prevent it from entering warp?

For that matter, why has no one in the Gallente navy thought of that before? Is this some kind of special, HIC-immune titan, or are there other ships that could attack Gallente Prime, or were HIC's not around at the writing of Empyrean Age?

If there are no answers for these questions, consider it simply food for thought :)


I don't remember anything about the Titan having orders to warp and Doomsday Gallente Prime (I remember Heth saying he could and that he would if the Federation initiated a counter attack) but Heth did say that he would glass the Gallente on Caldari Prime if the Federation tried anything and the Titan's guns are locked onto the Gallente districts. I imagine the moment a Federation fleet warped into Luminarie close enough to effect the Titan it would carry out its threat, and I don't see how anyone could really stop it short of infiltration and sabotage.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#76 - 2013-01-21 04:08:33 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:


I don't remember anything about the Titan having orders to warp and Doomsday Gallente Prime (I remember Heth saying he could and that he would if the Federation initiated a counter attack) but Heth did say that he would glass the Gallente on Caldari Prime if the Federation tried anything and the Titan's guns are locked onto the Gallente districts. I imagine the moment a Federation fleet warped into Luminarie close enough to effect the Titan it would carry out its threat, and I don't see how anyone could really stop it short of infiltration and sabotage.


Capsuler Suicide Blockers. As I said somewhere earlier. You could legitly as capsulers run observation of the tracking systems via passive sensors, calculate the districts it's aligned onto, and save bookmarks to warp heavily tanked BS's of the largest ship dimensions into those spots at the exact start of an attack. Those BS's/BC's would then take any fire directed at those districts to begin with. Once the Titan began to move, you would then have a trickier job since it could retarget and attempt to break through any umbrella put up.

But effectivly you create a shield over the Gallente districts by sacrificing ships to take the titans fire.
It would be messy, expensive, and difficult, and people would die as a result.
So it's a political question as to if the expense would be worth the result, and the Gallente have obviously decided it won't be worthwhile taking the risk that the Titan can DD/concentrate firepower and break through any kind of umbrella and hit the planet heavily. As well as the sheer cost in ships, and people that would occur even of you held the umbrella against it's fire. Since you can't use any kind of dodging the way most fights to reducing incoming damage, since you are aiming at putting yourself in the way of every single shot. So the usual solution of beating the Titans tracking solutions work in reverse, and you are taking the full DPS in BS hulls.
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#77 - 2013-01-21 04:26:40 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:


I don't remember anything about the Titan having orders to warp and Doomsday Gallente Prime (I remember Heth saying he could and that he would if the Federation initiated a counter attack) but Heth did say that he would glass the Gallente on Caldari Prime if the Federation tried anything and the Titan's guns are locked onto the Gallente districts. I imagine the moment a Federation fleet warped into Luminarie close enough to effect the Titan it would carry out its threat, and I don't see how anyone could really stop it short of infiltration and sabotage.


Capsuler Suicide Blockers. As I said somewhere earlier. You could legitly as capsulers run observation of the tracking systems via passive sensors, calculate the districts it's aligned onto, and save bookmarks to warp heavily tanked BS's of the largest ship dimensions into those spots at the exact start of an attack. Those BS's/BC's would then take any fire directed at those districts to begin with. Once the Titan began to move, you would then have a trickier job since it could retarget and attempt to break through any umbrella put up.

But effectivly you create a shield over the Gallente districts by sacrificing ships to take the titans fire.
It would be messy, expensive, and difficult, and people would die as a result.
So it's a political question as to if the expense would be worth the result, and the Gallente have obviously decided it won't be worthwhile taking the risk that the Titan can DD/concentrate firepower and break through any kind of umbrella and hit the planet heavily. As well as the sheer cost in ships, and people that would occur even of you held the umbrella against it's fire. Since you can't use any kind of dodging the way most fights to reducing incoming damage, since you are aiming at putting yourself in the way of every single shot. So the usual solution of beating the Titans tracking solutions work in reverse, and you are taking the full DPS in BS hulls.


I'll be honest the solution for this isn't bringing in Battleships, Frigates, Rookie ships would be far better served see as all they have to do is run themselves right up to the guns and sit in front of them to disperse or even deflect the titan shots.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#78 - 2013-01-21 16:53:16 UTC
Smartbombing battleships would work to stop the Leviathan's missiles. But it sounds like having support on the ground (in the form of planetary shields or point defence cannons...do those exist in DUST yet?) would work better. It honestly sounds like any attempt to liberate Caldari Prime would require cross-game involvement. Is it even possible to have Live Events like that yet?
Jasmin Soulscream
Daeuuas.
#79 - 2013-01-21 17:18:48 UTC
While all these ideas are certainly interesting do try to remeber that live events are restriced to game mechanics and so all of these ideas your coming up with so far are pretty much impossible to do as thers no mechanic for intercepting missles ect.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#80 - 2013-01-21 17:24:31 UTC
Jasmin Soulscream wrote:
While all these ideas are certainly interesting do try to remeber that live events are restriced to game mechanics and so all of these ideas your coming up with so far are pretty much impossible to do as thers no mechanic for intercepting missles ect.


/me points to post about smartbombs :)

Of course, that can go very badly very fast in high-sec. But I'm sure CCP can lower Luminaire's sec level for a day or so.