These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Miner Bumping: Discussion & Questions Thread

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Trin Again
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2012-12-05 04:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Trin Again
Hate 101 wrote:
all pvp games have a loophole that players will find and run in to ground bumping caps in null and low is fine in fleet fights
bumping exhumers and freighters in high sec is not about pvp Has more to do with players who just come to high sec on there
disposable alts that they trash when sec statis gets to low one more thing they run in to ground in to the ground needs fixed turn off bumping on freighters and mining ships then it fixed . Then they can get back to pvp




Think of as a low sec buff as soon you get them off the alts and back on there mains in low sec space it will be full of targets to rack up kills


This is wrong. I participate in high security space shenanigans on my main (much like how I post). When my and my compatriots' security status gets too low, we go and repair that with hours long PVE trips through null security systems. Keeping security status high enough to participate in these things is a job in and of itself.

Please don't spread misinformation about trashing alts, and focus on the topic at hand. Bumping works as intended. If someone can't be bothered to take an interest in what's going on in their neighborhood and steps outside, it's their fault. I, personally, wouldn't try to keep mining in space I knew to be hard to mine in. I also wouldn't try to carry freight through space I knew to be high in gankers. But that seems to be just me. High security is just that; higher security. It is not Perfect Security. It is not Secure. The sooner you realize this, the less outrage you'll feel about people playing the game against you.

Snipe.

EDIT: CCP, the invitation of a ride-along is still open. Contact me or really any of the miniluv characters in game, we'll get you set up.
Lady Cub
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#562 - 2012-12-05 06:35:44 UTC
I have already stated that "Bumping is a Valid game mechanic", However, it should be changed, Because it is Broken and being exploited...

Quote:
Mariko Bukan #540Posted: 2012.12.04 21:41

"Should a gnat affect the direction of an Elephant?", This answer is NO.


This is a Very good anology of what is happening...
Frigs or shuttles bumping Frieghters causeing them to spin out of control should not be happening at all. This same effect is causeing bumpers to be able to bump with a single push a mining ship over 25km.

Small Ships should bounce off bigger ships like the gnat off an elephant.

Should Bumping be unbalanced and ultra easy.... NO. Is it currently Ultra easy and Unbalanced... YES.. = BROKEN and EXPLOITED.

We should Add to my Post #443Posted: 2012.12.02 08:44

18. Replusion Module... A Module that can Repluse another ship pushing them away .. say 50km... However the Bumping Game Mechnic would need to be fixed first as the Ships Mass Must be the primary consideration. because you can Repluse your own ship.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2252198#post2252198


Quote:
Cannibal Kane > Praetorian Cannibals #444Posted: 2012.12.02 09:04

However as 1 man Corp. Some of your points are will affect my ability to play eve. Post with your main and stop troll post.
If not a troll, your points seems extreme to an almost idiotic level.


You defend your ability to play EVE at the expense of others.

Your Harrassment Threat against my "main" for my post here is against the EULA.

My Points are very valid, the Game Mechnic(s) are broken and being exploited.

The point making CONCORD respond 100x faster.... I am sure CCP would make adjustments to make it reasonable... However, If more than one Gankking takes place and CONCORD is allready on site they should respond immediately rather than with the security systems respones timer.

Quote:
admiral root > Red Galaxy #446Posted: 2012.12.02 09:12

To be honest, your post reads like you're probably quite young and / or not very mature.


You are very demeaning. This Violates the EULA.

Quote:
Mariko Bukan #540Posted: 2012.12.04 21:41



Has shown how "THE NEW ORDER" minerbumpers.com, is a group of players that are targeting a group of players with the intent of targeted harrassments and greifing and retailations for filing petitions.

Quote:

What is grief play?
http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336

A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


TERMS OF SERVICE
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp

1. You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers.

2. You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)

3. You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies

4. You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.

7. You may not violate any local, state, national or international laws or regulations.

16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules.

23. You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

CCP MAY FIND IT NECESSARY ON OCCASION TO MAKE CHANGES TO OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF THE PERSISTENT GAME WORLD MECHANICS, INTERFACE OR FEATURES OF EVE ONLINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GAME BALANCE AND ENHANCE PLAYABILITY OR PERFORMANCE FOR ITS SUBSCRIBERS. THESE CHANGES MAY AFFECT OR CAUSE SETBACKS FOR THE CHARACTERS YOU’VE CREATED.


I and Others have Outlined the Broken Game Mechnics. Many of us have offered valid recommendations to improve them. While some may appear extreme at first glance, I am sure CCP can balance them.
Trin Again
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2012-12-05 06:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Trin Again
Lady Cub wrote:
I have already stated that "Bumping is a Valid game mechanic", However, it should be changed, Because it is Broken and being exploited...

Quote:
Mariko Bukan #540Posted: 2012.12.04 21:41

"Should a gnat affect the direction of an Elephant?", This answer is NO.


This is a Very good anology of what is happening...
Frigs or shuttles bumping Frieghters causeing them to spin out of control should not be happening at all. This same effect is causeing bumpers to be able to bump with a single push a mining ship over 25km.

Small Ships should bounce off bigger ships like the gnat off an elephant.


The most common bumping ship is the Stabber Fleet Issue, a cruiser - not a frigate - weighing in at 9810 Metric Tons flying (with my less than perfect skills) at 5657 meters/sec or 12654.35 MPH without overheating. This means a potential 156968088345000 joules (or 156.96808834499998 terajoules) of kinetic energy. For comparison Little Boy, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a blast yield of 67 TJ. The collision of an SFI with anything is roughly 2.34 times the size of the bomb that leveled Hiroshima. That should move just about anything.

EDIT: The other commonly used ship is the Machariel, a battleship weighing in at 94680000 kg or 94680 metric tons and travelling at 2910 m/s delivering 400879854000000 joules or 400.87985399999997 TJ which is roughly 6 times the kinetic output of the same bomb.

Quote:
Should Bumping be unbalanced and ultra easy.... NO. Is it currently Ultra easy and Unbalanced... YES.. = BROKEN and EXPLOITED.


Bumping is not easy. It takes a lot of practice and often people get away because bumps fail to land. As we've just previously discussed, bumping is not unbalanced, either.

Quote:

You defend your ability to play EVE at the expense of others.


EVE Online is a game about playing at the expense of others. It is not a space PVE game. The creators have continuously stated that anything you undock in can be destroyed at a moments' notice.
Trin Again
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#564 - 2012-12-05 06:58:03 UTC
Quote:

My Points are very valid, the Game Mechnic(s) are broken and being exploited.

No they aren't, because no they aren't and no they aren't, respectively.


Quote:
The point making CONCORD respond 100x faster.... I am sure CCP would make adjustments to make it reasonable... However, If more than one Gankking takes place and CONCORD is allready on site they should respond immediately rather than with the security systems respones timer.


If CONCORD is on grid when a CONCORDable action occurs, they DO react immediately.

Quote:

You are very demeaning. This Violates the EULA.


No he isn't and no it doesn't.

Quote:

I and Others have Outlined the Broken Game Mechnics. Many of us have offered valid recommendations to improve them. While some may appear extreme at first glance, I am sure CCP can balance them.


As the math above proves, the mechanics are not broken. There have been no valid recommendations to improve them.
gizzmasterzero
Shake Hands With Beef
#565 - 2012-12-05 07:03:03 UTC
Lady Cub wrote:
words, EULA quotes, etc..




First of all, what the New Order is doing doesn't violate the EULA. We are not belligerent thieves - we are business men and women. I would find it very hard to believe that any sanctioned members that enforce the beliefs of the New Order would dare use foul language. We are simply above it.

Furthermore, we are not harassing anyone, and yes, this IS emergent game play. Who's to say that some members don't have an alt...trained in - say - Industry! And maybe that alt makes mining equipment, guns, ammo, mining ships, and....Destroyers!

Maybe, just maybe, we are simply playing the game how we want to play it(within the rules, ofc). And that pretty much boils it down. You want us to play Eve your way. Fact of matter is, what is going on isn't illegal, against the EULA, against state or national laws(?), or anything of the sort. We are business men and women. You don't blame the world when you are at the pool lounging and someone does a cannonball next to you.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#566 - 2012-12-05 07:40:57 UTC
Hate 101 wrote:
all pvp games have a loophole that players will find and run in to ground bumping caps in null and low is fine in fleet fights
bumping exhumers and freighters in high sec is not about pvp Has more to do with players who just come to high sec on there
disposable alts that they trash when sec statis gets to low one more thing they run in to ground in to the ground needs fixed turn off bumping on freighters and mining ships then it fixed . Then they can get back to pvp




Think of as a low sec buff as soon you get them off the alts and back on there mains in low sec space it will be full of targets to rack up kills


"Bumping those other people is all fine and good, but when someone bumps -my- ship well THATS JUST TO FAR IM CALLING A GM"

And how many times does it need to be said that the way to gank people isn't thru disposable alts(which is a bannable offense anyways, afaik). Sec status isn't even that hard to regain if you're competent.
Also, I want to know what implants and remaps you're using that allow you to use a T2 talos or Brutix with a 14d trial account. Because I've been hearing people repeat this alot lately.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#567 - 2012-12-05 07:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Lady Cub wrote:
I have already stated that "Bumping is a Valid game mechanic", However, it should be changed, Because it is Broken and being exploited...


This is a Very good anology of what is happening...
Frigs or shuttles bumping Frieghters causeing them to spin out of control should not be happening at all. This same effect is causeing bumpers to be able to bump with a single push a mining ship over 25km.

Small Ships should bounce off bigger ships like the gnat off an elephant.

Should Bumping be unbalanced and ultra easy.... NO. Is it currently Ultra easy and Unbalanced... YES.. = BROKEN and EXPLOITED.

We should Add to my Post #443Posted: 2012.12.02 08:44

18. Replusion Module... A Module that can Repluse another ship pushing them away .. say 50km... However the Bumping Game Mechnic would need to be fixed first as the Ships Mass Must be the primary consideration. because you can Repluse your own ship.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2252198#post2252198


Quote:
Cannibal Kane > Praetorian Cannibals #444Posted: 2012.12.02 09:04

However as 1 man Corp. Some of your points are will affect my ability to play eve. Post with your main and stop troll post.
If not a troll, your points seems extreme to an almost idiotic level.


You defend your ability to play EVE at the expense of others.

Your Harrassment Threat against my "main" for my post here is against the EULA.

My Points are very valid, the Game Mechnic(s) are broken and being exploited.

The point making CONCORD respond 100x faster.... I am sure CCP would make adjustments to make it reasonable... However, If more than one Gankking takes place and CONCORD is allready on site they should respond immediately rather than with the security systems respones timer.

Quote:
admiral root > Red Galaxy #446Posted: 2012.12.02 09:12

To be honest, your post reads like you're probably quite young and / or not very mature.


You are very demeaning. This Violates the EULA.

Quote:
Mariko Bukan #540Posted: 2012.12.04 21:41



Has shown how "THE NEW ORDER" minerbumpers.com, is a group of players that are targeting a group of players with the intent of targeted harrassments and greifing and retailations for filing petitions.

Quote:

What is grief play?
http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336

A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


TERMS OF SERVICE
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp

1. You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers.

2. You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)

3. You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies

4. You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.

7. You may not violate any local, state, national or international laws or regulations.

16. You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules.

23. You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

CCP MAY FIND IT NECESSARY ON OCCASION TO MAKE CHANGES TO OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF THE PERSISTENT GAME WORLD MECHANICS, INTERFACE OR FEATURES OF EVE ONLINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GAME BALANCE AND ENHANCE PLAYABILITY OR PERFORMANCE FOR ITS SUBSCRIBERS. THESE CHANGES MAY AFFECT OR CAUSE SETBACKS FOR THE CHARACTERS YOU’VE CREATED.


I and Others have Outlined the Broken Game Mechnics. Many of us have offered valid recommendations to improve them. While some may appear extreme at first glance, I am sure CCP can balance them.



Worst. Troll. Ever.

Stop derailing this thread with your pathetic attempt at backseat modding.
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#568 - 2012-12-05 07:46:50 UTC  |  Edited by: SaKoil
Lady Cub wrote:

Wall of text


I, also, have a quote for you:

Quote:
Ranting is prohibited

A rant is a long-winded, redundant post, often filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.


Edit: and another quote:

CCP Falcon wrote:


  • Bumping in itself is not considered an exploit.
  • Bumping in itself is a valid game mechanic.
  • If players feel they are being repeatedly harassed despite trying to avoid this practice by all necessary means, they are free and encouraged to file a petition.

Lin Suizei
#569 - 2012-12-05 08:08:20 UTC
Lady Cub wrote:
Should Bumping be unbalanced and ultra easy.... NO. Is it currently Ultra easy and Unbalanced... YES.. = BROKEN and EXPLOITED.


It is ultra easy because miners actively refuse to fight back. It's that simple, and this is the heart of the current issue. How is it possible that you do not see this?

If you disagree with Miner Bumping, please at least make a reasonable attempt to defend yourself using basic in-game mechanics (i.e. open fire) before complaining on the forum.

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.
Razesdark
Immediate Success
#570 - 2012-12-05 08:10:51 UTC
This will probably be deleted.
But it sounds awfully fitting for the thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HTG5YfLAJ4
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#571 - 2012-12-05 08:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
As the person responsible for the "fight for your right" picture Mariko Bukan mentions, it's called propaganda (not very good propaganda but propaganda nonetheless), many interest groups, corporations and alliances in Eve use propaganda, often featuring communist or warlike themes as they are both striking and effective, sometimes the best part of a century after their first use.

IIRC that particular image was used sometime between 1910 and 1920 in support of a miners strike, I just turned it around and used the image to protest against a possible change in game mechanics due to miners complaints, I saw it as ironic. If people find the image offensive then that's fine, it's designed to provoke an emotional response, that's the very purpose of propaganda, in this case, it seems to have at least partially succeeded, it offended someone.

If I had used that image in it's original context, in support of miners, would it have provoked the same response from bumpers or gankers? nope they'd have laughed at it, seen it for what it was and carried on, they may even have given me some credit for at least trying.

(lol)wikipedia wrote:
Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.


I've bolded the relevant parts. For further examples of ingame propaganda please see pretty much everything Goonswarm has ever done to promote their way of playing, the state of the goonion speeches & videos as well as their recruitment posters are excellent examples, the quality of which I can only hope to aspire to.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#572 - 2012-12-05 08:47:27 UTC
How strong must your reality filter be to say that bumping is a "broken" mechanic that is being "exploited" when it has existed for like ten years and GMs, devs, etc have very explicitly stated countless times that it isn't broken and isn't being exploited.

I suppose it's to be expected, the afks and bot-aspirants are so removed from this game that they aren't even aware of what is going on, how the game works, or what has been stated time and time again by GMs/Devs
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#573 - 2012-12-05 09:00:48 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
How strong must your reality filter be to say that bumping is a "broken" mechanic that is being "exploited" when it has existed for like ten years and GMs, devs, etc have very explicitly stated countless times that it isn't broken and isn't being exploited.

I suppose it's to be expected, the afks and bot-aspirants are so removed from this game that they aren't even aware of what is going on, how the game works, or what has been stated time and time again by GMs/Devs


I like the part the most where they actively ignore the devs while clutching their pearls and screeching their demands to the world.

The game and the community is somehow broken because they do not conform to their exact needs.

I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. ~~Michael Jackson

Pigs are against the EULA. ~~Lady Cub
Nanatoa
#574 - 2012-12-05 11:32:56 UTC
I'm amazed that nearly 30 pages after the first post - which explicitly states that bumping is not an exploit and not a violation of the rules - anti-bumpers are still arguing that bumping is against the rules. How can we have a serious and constructive discussion here if all one side does is stick to delusions?

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#575 - 2012-12-05 12:48:09 UTC
Lady Cub wrote:
Should Bumping be unbalanced and ultra easy.... NO. Is it currently Ultra easy and Unbalanced... YES.. = BROKEN and EXPLOITED.


If bumping is so easy, why are so many people awful at it?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#576 - 2012-12-05 13:04:24 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Lady Cub wrote:
Should Bumping be unbalanced and ultra easy.... NO. Is it currently Ultra easy and Unbalanced... YES.. = BROKEN and EXPLOITED.


If bumping is so easy, why are so many people awful at it?


Not to mention highsec mining is ultra easy.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#577 - 2012-12-05 14:51:50 UTC
SInce this thread will soon lock, and several of my posts no longer say what I wrote, I am entering final argument.

I see a major part of the argument against bumping remains:

1) We continue to talk to people in local, and
2) James 315 continues to blog about it, and
3) The Code is written in a way that claims to be just and beneficial to the miners.

This is the center of the issue. The miners already have many ways of countering the bumps. A quick list has been given many times during this discussion but orbiting, skiffing, moving to another system, bumper ganking, wardecs, and paying the 10,000,000 ISK all are effective in varying degrees . They also can now put bounties on us (thanks everybody!).

What the miners really resent about bumping is the fact that they are being forced to comply with The Code. This is understandable. No one wants to feel powerless. But unfortunately for them, this is what Eve is. At the base, a bunch of individuals, with only their own self-interest at heart, and focused on one specific goal are upset because a well-organized group which also have a specific, but different goal, has decided to stand between them and that goal. Add to that the frustration that everything they try in resisting does not discourage the New Order but is turned to our advantage. It was inevitable that some individual miners would turn to CCP for redress. The loudest of these protesting miners are, not unsurprisingly, the ones who refuse to use the counters available to them as they prefer not to accept the trade-offs.

In short, they want it all and they want it now.

Admittedly, as an Agent I have a particular view of the situation that does not match the miners. However, I would hope that the GMs review the actual comments from both sides of the discussion and see who wants Eve to be more than it is today and who wants it to be less. Who wants things to be more interesting and who wants things to be quiet and dull. Who wants more player interaction and who wants less.

I'm proud to be an Eve player. Many of my friends couldn't hack this game but they are fascinated by my tales of the latest major event from the wars in null to the Burn Jita event. I think a very strong argument can be made that the New Order of Highsec is part of what makes Eve unique. When outsiders hear about Eve, they should be hearing about the New Order and not the yield rate of a max-fit Mackinaw.

In summation, I have slightly changed a comment made by a player upthread:

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Anslo
Scope Works
#578 - 2012-12-05 15:13:44 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:

1) We continue to talk to people in local, and
2) James 315 continues to blog about it, and
3) The Code is written in a way that claims to be just and beneficial to the miners.


Except that's not quite the issues being voiced and you're just twisting words, once again, to fit the "orders" agenda.

1) You continue to verbally harass and target specific miners and prevent them from playing the game
2) James 315 continues to blog about specific miners, target them, and foster hate mongering ideologies towards high-sec
miners in order to spur forth more hate-based action against them.
3) The "code" is written in a derogatory manner that encourages trolling and hate against a specific subset of players

That's a bit more accurate Smile

Quote:
This is the center of the issue. The miners already have many ways of countering the bumps. A quick list has been given many times during this discussion but orbiting, skiffing, moving to another system, bumper ganking, wardecs, and paying the 10,000,000 ISK all are effective in varying degrees .

All of which are duct tape fixes that still don't stop the continued, targeted, and belligerent behavior of the bumpers.

Quote:
What the miners really resent about bumping is the fact that they are being forced to comply with The Code. This is understandable. No one wants to feel powerless. But unfortunately for them, this is what Eve is. At the base, a bunch of individuals, with only their own self-interest at heart, and focused on one specific goal are upset because a well-organized group which also have a specific, but different goal, has decided to stand between them and that goal. Add to that the frustration that everything they try in resisting does not discourage the New Order but is turned to our advantage. It was inevitable that some individual miners would turn to CCP for redress. The loudest of these protesting miners are, not unsurprisingly, the ones who refuse to use the counters available to them as they prefer not to accept the trade-offs.

In short, they want it all and they want it now.


Eve is indeed a game where a fiery clash of ideals and goals come together in bullets and steel. Each action has a consequence. Yet your's do not? You complain about why miners should be immune to your griefing? Well, why should you be immune from real, non-CONCORDable, effective retaliation? You people continue to taut risk vs reward around, yet your risk seems minimal.

Yet another hypocrisy of the bumpgeois thugs. Wanting all the griefing abilities, yet no risk. Sound familiar?

Quote:
Admittedly, as an Agent I have a particular view of the situation that does not match the miners. However, I would hope that the GMs review the actual comments from both sides of the discussion and see who wants Eve to be more than it is today and who wants it to be less. Who wants things to be more interesting and who wants things to be quiet and dull. Who wants more player interaction and who wants less.


Not only are you an "agent," but you're one of the most outspoken. Not only outspoken, but outspoken in some of the most irksome and word twisting ways by hiding behind the veil of civility and (failingly) preventing others from seeing your true nature of promoting griefing among players. Eve "being more" does not constitute increased griefing and thug-like behavior. This unwarranted and unchecked behavior is what would drive people away from Eve, making it LESS (i.e. the thing you wish to prevent).

Interesting is not griefing players to the point of quitting. Interesting is not hypocrisy. Interesting is not bumping.

Verbal abuse is not wantsome player interaction. Targeted griefing and harassment is not wantsome player interaction. Bullying to an extreme extent is not wantsome player interaction.

Quote:
I'm proud to be an Eve player. Many of my friends couldn't hack this game but they are fascinated by my tales of the latest major event from the wars in null to the Burn Jita event. I think a very strong argument can be made that the New Order of Highsec is part of what makes Eve unique. When outsiders hear about Eve, they should be hearing about the New Order and not the yield rate of a max-fit Mackinaw.


If you were a proud Eve player, you would see your actions hurt more than help. The wars, Burn Jita, the heists, the capital fleets, the Incursions, the industry, the market, the pew, even the mining, everything that makes Eve what it is both PvP and PvE should indeed make you proud. Bumping is not a part of Eve, it's a reaction from griefers who were upset they couldn't easily gank barges anymore ("i want no risk and all the gank reward!" Sound familiar yes?). Bumping is not what Eve is about.

The "order" is a small microcosm of all that is wrong with the community. It is a group of very predatory individuals who thrive not just off tears (ganking and tear collection is one thing), but on actual grief and strife against real players by preventing them from enjoying their game. When outsiders hear that they may not even be able to play how they want because someone doesn't like their play style, how do you think they'd react?

"Oh boy I wanna play that?" No...they'd find something else, because they wish to enjoy a game.

"But that's what Eve's about n00b! If they enjoy it their doin it right!" Wrong. Eve is about enjoying Eve and what it has to offer, not wanting to fulfill some masochistic desire to be harassed by other gamers.

When an outside hears about Eve, he should be hearing about a grand and diverse universe filled with limitless potential, not some bitter vets vendetta against miners that keeps them from enjoying their game play.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#579 - 2012-12-05 15:19:18 UTC
While the thread topic is miner bumping, the real issue, as a number of others have pointed out, is what kind of game does CCP really want?

Quite a few posts were censored in this thread because they were deemed "off-topic", but I think those posts are very much on-topic as they highlight the two types of player involved. All of the negative drama around miner bumping very much applies to many other areas of the game, because it's not really about miners and bumpers, but rather fountains and drains. The former want to do things, they fight hard and they play to win, while the latter simply want to be left alone in a multiplayer game, and shudder at the very notion of having to put in any kind of effort to achieve their goal.

If CCP decides that James and friends are suddenly bad for the game after nearly 10 years I assure you the drains will be back next week, demanding something else be changed to suit them (nerf goons?). Meanwhile, the New Order, being fountains, already have a plan B *and* a plan C and assets have already been staged, because rather than rely on the rules as a crutch they see them as the acceptable boundaries of their wonderfully devious in-game personas.

While the immediate aftermath of this will be a GM ruling that bumping is awesome, or that it's suddenly and miraculously harassment, it's not the real decision they'll be making. It will be whether CCP wants a playerbase that is predominantly fountains who build (or topple) empires, pull off outrageous scams and come up with all kinds of nutty things that make Eve the game it is, or drains who will suck every last bit of fun out of the game until what remains is a barren wasteland where the pinnacle of excitement is running L4 missions and mining, often with multiple acccounts, to see who can build the biggest pile of stuff, then not tell anyone about it because interaction is bad. And, please, don't think this is some silly "Eve is dying" rant; I have no doubt that Eve will continue to flourish for a long time, and may even do financially better if it becomes just another MMO where no-one can be mean to me.

So, when the thread is locked and people hopefully weigh the evidence before making a decision, look at the "content" you're being asked to protect - lock up a limitless resource, push buttan, receive bacon when they come back to the computer x minutes later. Then, look at the content you're being asked to destroy, where people get space-mad about in-game zealots and salesmen, where local explodes with chatter, friendships get made (sometimes even between bumpers and rebels), isk changes hands, spaceships asplode and one or two guys even dare to think they'll carry out a hostile takeover of the bump trade.

Finally, please look at the censored posts - many of them are actually what you asked for.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Rodtrik
Aphex Industries
#580 - 2012-12-05 15:34:10 UTC
admiral root wrote:
While the thread topic is miner bumping, the real issue, as a number of others have pointed out, is what kind of game does CCP really want?

Not a game where players are harassed and potential players are chased off.

Quote:
Quite a few posts were censored in this thread because they were deemed "off-topic", but I think those posts are very much on-topic as they highlight the two types of player involved. All of the negative drama around miner bumping very much applies to many other areas of the game, because it's not really about miners and bumpers, but rather fountains and drains. The former want to do things, they fight hard and they play to win, while the latter simply want to be left alone in a multiplayer game, and shudder at the very notion of having to put in any kind of effort to achieve their goal.

Very nice positive and negative light bias utilization. Makes you all the more credible. This isn't about your aforementioned item. This is about the line between normal game griefing and out right harassment of a group of individuals because you don't like them not talking to you. It's absurd. The level of hate mongering from the bumpers is sickening. You even liken miners to microscopic parasitic organisms. Unbelievable.

Quote:
If CCP decides that James and friends are suddenly bad for the game after nearly 10 years I assure you the drains will be back next week, demanding something else be changed to suit them (nerf goons?). Meanwhile, the New Order, being fountains, already have a plan B *and* a plan C and assets have already been staged, because rather than rely on the rules as a crutch they see them as the acceptable boundaries of their wonderfully devious in-game personas.

Be that as it may, it would be a minor annoyance compared to the outright uproar of bumping. The other pubbies and carebears can complain, but they have a form of counter, be it from ganking or mission ninjas. Miners have long been stepped on as a working class group by others and treated as second class citizens. The minute they get something to protect themselves, the griefers and thugs utilize harassment to push miners into submission or, into quitting.

If this was just ganking, the miners could at least tank or use RR. They have something to fight back with, especially now with Retribution. Bumping? What is there? Nothing effective. Devious is right though. Devious, malicious, belligerent.


Quote:
While the immediate aftermath of this will be a GM ruling that bumping is awesome, or that it's suddenly and miraculously harassment, it's not the real decision they'll be making. It will be whether CCP wants a playerbase that is predominantly fountains who build (or topple) empires, pull off outrageous scams and come up with all kinds of nutty things that make Eve the game it is, or drains who will suck every last bit of fun out of the game until what remains is a barren wasteland where the pinnacle of excitement is running L4 missions and mining, often with multiple acccounts, to see who can build the biggest pile of stuff, then not tell anyone about it because interaction is bad. And, please, don't think this is some silly "Eve is dying" rant; I have no doubt that Eve will continue to flourish for a long time, and may even do financially better if it becomes just another MMO where no-one can be mean to me.


I like how carebears cannot be "fountains" by your definition. Who builds up industry? Who gets the materials to build ships and ammo and stations? Who goes out and explores to research those glorious BPs? Who missions and gets the market plump with affordable modules from NPC wrecks for new players to use and enjoy on their journey through Eve?

This is not the actions of a fountain? How amusingly biased. Even more amusing is your assumption that Carebears don't interact at all. Because they don't talk to you, they don't talk at all? Nice strawman...if it even IS that.

Quote:
So, when the thread is locked and people hopefully weigh the evidence before making a decision, look at the "content" you're being asked to protect - lock up a limitless resource, push buttan, receive bacon when they come back to the computer x minutes later. Then, look at the content you're being asked to destroy, where people get space-mad about in-game zealots and salesmen, where local explodes with chatter, friendships get made (sometimes even between bumpers and rebels), isk changes hands, spaceships asplode and one or two guys even dare to think they'll carry out a hostile takeover of the bump trade.


If it was only that simple. It could have been interesting, could have. You started going after only bots. I was ok with this. Then afk miners, I wasn't so ok with this but fine. Profit could have been made. Then miners, at the keyboard, and generally harassing them and making them a target.

Not OK.

Eve is indeed a game where things blow up, money exchanges hands, blablabla (way to paraphrase the Inferno trailer to pander to CCP), but this is beyond that. Your group's behavior is deplorable. You are using a broken mechanic, hiding behind the veil of civility and "content," and harassing individuals who simply want to play a game. There is no war here, there is no us vs. them that you seem to promote. There's no reason that a "collector" who'd like to just mission and collect and a griefer can't just exist in the same universe. It's big enough for both. But your group seems hell bent on pushing an agenda that there is a war of us vs. them as if it was some final solution push to rid the verse of carebears.

That's the issue we have. That's the problem, and it needs addressed. Your group has gone too far. You need to be put in your place and stopped.