These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

EVE Online Development Strategy (CSM Public)

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#141 - 2012-11-25 10:45:03 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Screw you CSM!!!!!!.


Thank you for your valuable input and I hope you continue to enjoy your Sunday forum experience.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#142 - 2012-11-25 10:45:40 UTC
Browsed throw the thread and based on comments, looks like i better read what the helll is CSM up to this time. So far sounds a lot like pro 0.0, nerf highsec. But i better read it myself before commenting more...

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Frying Doom
#143 - 2012-11-25 10:49:47 UTC
Seleene wrote:

On this particular document, as far as I am aware, everyone had a chance to read / chime in and did so except for Darius III, who has been absent from any CSM activity of note since election day. Based on emails and following chats in Skype, everyone else approved.

Thank you not as clear cut as everyone actually stating they endorsed the document but at least it is something.

Oh and the reason I said that is I recently saw on a list of CSM blogs, Darius III's name, so I thought he had just become active again just prior to the next election, which is fairly normal from him.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tian Jade
Bad Bumblebee Incorporated
#144 - 2012-11-25 10:51:39 UTC
First of all, the CSM does not represent me in any form. As an EVE player not represented by anyone in the CSM I distance myself from this document.

Aside from a bit of blabla the iteration of features comes down to: More ressources to Null

The fact alone that so much of the ressources have been thrown at them in the past few years created a lot of the imbalances in the economy and the EVE gameplay. A few years back there were hundreds of null-alliances, some allied with others and catering literally hundreds of different playstyles. But when the power of the alliances grew fewer and fewer had the power to stay on the map. With the rise of the super-power blocks, the ones the CSM really represents, came something like virtual slavery into EVE. When players were practically forced to work only for the alliance, do what they are told or quit null.

At that time a lot of people quit null and the still new CSM , representing these power blocks, came up with new ideas how to force people to play 'their' game.

Iteration of features is certainly needed, as it is ship balancing etc. but the basic problem is, what EVE wants to sell as expansions are just balancing patches.

In the last few years we had only the W-space, Planetary Interaction and WiS as new features. W-Space was very successful but has received practically no attention afterwards, no new W-Systems, no ships or T3 modules since 09.

- It was successful enough for the CSM to push for a nerf of minerals of W-Space and that was not because it was good for EVE but because the power blocks don't like to share.

Planetary Interaction had some nice graphics, but the gameplay was horrible and most of the features promised are stil missing, The thing was also abandoned after a patch that only half-heartedly adressed the issues. The only reason is is still in use is, because it was forced into the POS fuel system.

- The CSM was only happy with it after lowsec and highsec were severely nerfed. The quasi-sovereignity feature of customs offices is mostly for the benefit of Null and the CSM has no problem with lack of gameplay, as long as it furthers their own goals.

I could write an entire article on why WiS is not wrong in itself but CCP made every mistake imaginable when they released it and then made another mistake when they abandoned it like so many other features.

- The CSM has no problems with abandoning WiS as both player interaction in stations, or a kind of EVA-activit in W-space explorations would not have been to the direct benefit of Null powerblocks.


In summary the CSM does not represent the playerbase they represent the biggest of powerblocks in Null but no one else. That CCP seems to listen primarily to their feedback is regretable as they only reprent a view warped by their own interests.
Tian Jade
Bad Bumblebee Incorporated
#145 - 2012-11-25 11:02:05 UTC
Iteration will not bring players who left back and just with re-balancing ships, minerals, industry etc CCP is not able to attact and keep new players in signficant amounts.

It is important to understand that EVE is a game and therefore the gameplay is most important. Balancing alone won't be enough without new gameplay features that support multiple different playstyle.

Most alliances are quite demanding to their playerbase in regards to the time they have to invest and many people with jobs and family are simply not able to spend that much time, so to help retain or even bring them back there needs to be features that they can enjoy without them feeling like they are forced to do this.
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#146 - 2012-11-25 11:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
Tian Jade wrote:
A few years back there were hundreds of null-alliances, some allied with others and catering literally hundreds of different playstyles. But when the power of the alliances grew fewer and fewer had the power to stay on the map. With the rise of the super-power blocks, the ones the CSM really represents, came something like virtual slavery into EVE. When players were practically forced to work only for the alliance, do what they are told or quit null.


Well, the sandbox of EVE mirrors the real world in many ways - coalitions of alliances were inevitable and were happening a hell of a lot further back than a few years ago. Breaking up many of those coalitions has been the largest player generated content in the game. In the end, EVE is all about war, be it economic or military. It's not surprising that an elected council for a game like EVE also mirrors the most active content generators in the game.

That being said, the members of CSM 7, and even CSM 6 tbh, represent quite a large variety of playstyles. Alliance tags are pretty irrelevant when it comes to actual decision making and consensus on the CSM. We're a bunch of nerds that play a video game and we tend to agree on more issues than we disagree on.

As for virtual slavery and such, I guess you've been exposed to some pretty **** alliances. There are some genuinely nice space bros out there, friend. Smile

Tian Jade wrote:
Iteration of features is certainly needed, as it is ship balancing etc. but the basic problem is, what EVE wants to sell as expansions are just balancing patches.

In the last few years we had only the W-space, Planetary Interaction and WiS as new features. W-Space was very successful but has received practically no attention afterwards, no new W-Systems, no ships or T3 modules since 09.

Planetary Interaction had some nice graphics, but the gameplay was horrible and most of the features promised are stil missing, The thing was also abandoned after a patch that only half-heartedly adressed the issues. The only reason is is still in use is, because it was forced into the POS fuel system.

I could write an entire article on why WiS is not wrong in itself but CCP made every mistake imaginable when they released it and then made another mistake when they abandoned it like so many other features..


See, what I did here was remove your ~opinions~ and left in the exact text of the things you are pissed about with EVE. Guess what? I agree with you on all of these and have been all CAPITOL LETTERS about them all the way back to when I was actually working on some of the above at CCP. (I have a special place of hate in my heart for P.I.) My point is that, despite what you may believe, you do have a voice on the CSM because your list above is something most of us share your frustration with. Don't paint us, or the rest of "null sec" folks with such a broad brush, mate. You have more allies than you think.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
MainDrain
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2012-11-25 11:09:18 UTC
Harbingour wrote:

WARP STORMS something like in WH40k that doesn't affect your warp drive ability but does prevent cyno'ing from working ( CYNO JAMM STORMs I guess would be a better term ) Maybe have a supernova in sydicate as a background RP & this area would become a permenant cyno jam'd small gang PvP area. It couldbeargued though this is a nerf to those owning CAPs & a buff to others but I just wanted to throw this idea out there

another twist on the WARP STORMs could be instead of cyno jamming the super nova wipes out & disrupts local chat in a certain stretchs of NULL so that intelligence can no longer be used muchlike in WH space. This way local is not taken down in all of NULL but just afew places for CCP & plyers alike to test if its good idea or not.


I like this idea, but if you increased the number of effect types, and implement them in a similar way to WH space, instead have them effect an entire region. It would mix it up a little in terms of PVE as well. Your standard tanked ship may not be as resistant as it once was due to the effect.

The chance of an effect occuring could be linked to how close the constellation is to null/low sec so your more likely to have the effect in a neighbouring constellation than you are in a Jitas constellation
Frying Doom
#148 - 2012-11-25 11:11:19 UTC
Well as you are here Seleene please see a post in that never used section of the EvE-O forums (jita Park)

What is the CSM

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#149 - 2012-11-25 11:11:19 UTC
Tian Jade wrote:
First of all, the CSM does not represent me in any form. As an EVE player not represented by anyone in the CSM I distance myself from this document.

Aside from a bit of blabla the iteration of features comes down to: More ressources to Null

The fact alone that so much of the ressources have been thrown at them in the past few years created a lot of the imbalances in the economy and the EVE gameplay.


Such as?

Since Dominion (Winter 2009), which was actually a step backwards for 0.0 in many respects, what "resources" have been "thrown" at 0.0? Every expansion since then has either been completely non-specific with respect to zone, (Incarna, Tyrannis, Crucible) or Empire-focused (Inferno, Incursion). Before Dominion was Apocrypha, which was W-space. Before that was Quantum Rise which introduced new industrial ships mostly used in hi-sec, before that was Empyrean Age, which was wholly Empire focused, before that was Trinity, which did actually bring some new stuff for 0.0.

0.0 has been almost completely neglected for years. It hasn't been significantly improved since... Trinity, which you may remember came out FIVE YEARS AGO. In comparison, Empire generally and hi-sec specifically has received far more Dev attention. The only development effort I can think of that has disproportionately benefited 0.0 is the work that Team Gridlock have done on TiDi and reducing lag. And that's only because 0.0 activities suffered far worse from lag than those anywhere else.

I can only assume that you've confused forum noise (of which there has been lots) for 0.0-specific developer effort (of which there has been very little), and that you've no recent experience of living in 0.0. Nullspace has been dreadfully neglected and it's way, way overdue for some work.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#150 - 2012-11-25 11:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
The issues described in the paper sound very similar to the points of concern and areas of interest that I've arrived at over the past few months. As a bittervet, I'm surprised by just how much I miss the prospect of major shiny features and how few of my assets I feel attached to these days. I agree with the CSM's priorities for investing in feature development, though not necessarily with some of the details about income; personally, I think nullsec's inhabitants have spent the last 5 years with a level of abundance far beyond the ideal zone, but that's just a matter of taste.

Overall, excellent work on the writeup; I endorse this product and or service.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#151 - 2012-11-25 11:19:27 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
The issues described in the paper sound very similar to the points of concern and areas of interest that I've arrived at over the past few months. As a bittervet, I'm surprised by just how much I miss the prospect of major shiny features and how few of my assets I feel attached to these days. I agree with the CSM's priorities for investing in feature development, though not necessarily with some of the details about income; personally, I think nullsec's inhabitants have spent the last 5 years with a level of abundance far beyond the ideal zone, but that's just a matter of taste.

Overall, excellent work on the writeup; I endorse this product and or service.


0.0 doesn't really need more ISK.

It needs more game.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frying Doom
#152 - 2012-11-25 11:19:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Tian Jade wrote:
First of all, the CSM does not represent me in any form. As an EVE player not represented by anyone in the CSM I distance myself from this document.

Aside from a bit of blabla the iteration of features comes down to: More ressources to Null

The fact alone that so much of the ressources have been thrown at them in the past few years created a lot of the imbalances in the economy and the EVE gameplay.


Such as?

Since Dominion (Winter 2009), which was actually a step backwards for 0.0 in many respects, what "resources" have been "thrown" at 0.0? Every expansion since then has either been completely non-specific with respect to zone, (Incarna, Tyrannis, Crucible) or Empire-focused (Inferno, Incursion). Before Dominion was Apocrypha, which was W-space. Before that was Quantum Rise which introduced new industrial ships mostly used in hi-sec, before that was Empyrean Age, which was wholly Empire focused, before that was Trinity, which did actually bring some new stuff for 0.0.

Ok expansions that have had resources wasted on Null sec including the waste used on Super balancing, rebalancing, nerfing and just plain turning them into coffins

I wont go before December 2009 (the last truly monstrous waste of time on Null.)


  • Crucible (well just before TiDi)
  • Incarna
  • Incursion
  • Tyranis
  • Dominion


So every patch has had resources devoted to Null except Inferno. Maybe you can tell me how much has just been used on Hi-sec or Wormholes in that same amount of time?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#153 - 2012-11-25 11:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Frying Doom wrote:
So every patch has had resources devoted to Null except Inferno. Maybe you can tell me how much has just been used on Hi-sec or Wormholes in that same amount of time?


I'm just going to step in and say Incursions and Mining Barge Buffs were added, and that Highsec and Wormhole Space are generally healthy. Wormhole Space helps attract players to the game because of it's capacity to tell stories, but lets face it; nobody ever started playing an Eve Online trial because of how amazing High Security Space is. 0.0 is a marketing tool as much as it is a player retention tool, and with nullsec's mechanics being complete garbage, it is failing at its vital purpose of making Eve marketable.

Iteration to make highsec better is important, and it has been receiving it. Beyond that, high security space simply is not worth prioritizing new, high profile features for at this point in time. Nullsec, being the heart and soul of the social engine that drives non-player interest in Eve Online, is in desperate need of an overhaul to restore that interest. CCP doesn't have very many internet communities to acquire a pool of new players from, which makes general distributed presence in social media, be they facebook, twitter, or random internet forums, all the more important.

Safe areas don't do a very good job of selling the idea of a grand space opera, and for EVE Online to thrive, CCP needs both old players and new players. Nullsec space is the most potent aspect of the game, both for potential new subscribers and for entertaining Eve's high profile power brokers. High Security space may boast the larger numbers of players, but it is not, nor can it be, the chief source of vibrancy that makes Eve Online special.
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#154 - 2012-11-25 11:27:26 UTC
As I only skimmed over the document and the posts, I do apologize if I missed it.

I don't see any mention of bug fixing. And by small bugs, I mean stuff that's not working as intended on a small scale. Examples include from the serious things like loosing materials when the job times out on installing to small annoying things like contracts not ordered properly when clicking fetch contracts or corp hangars you only have view and take access too are in the drop down list when changing blueprint when manufactering.

Sure they can happen, as junior programmer I create plenty of them. However my main problem the time that it takes to get stuff fixed is way too long. Or even get something promoted to defect takes very long. The bug I mentioned where you loose materials, I reported that 2 years ago and it still hasn't been promoted to defect, as BH couldn't reproduce it. So instead of such a serious issue, which ofcourse is hard to reproduce, it's filtered and forgotten about. Even bringing up later to GMs and a BH and a few forum posts, nothong happens. Hell, even QA director replied, nothing happened.

Is that ok and shouldn't be looked at?

Therefor as vet, I would request/suggest that more time is allocated to bug fixing. Also if something is serious like materials being lost or items visible through the old api due to a role, but not ingame, should be dealed with fast and possible even promoted to defect if can't be reproduced instead of closing it after 6 months.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2012-11-25 11:30:16 UTC
Rutger Janssen wrote:
As I only skimmed over the document and the posts, I do apologize if I missed it.

I don't see any mention of bug fixing.


This document is trying to sell CCP on adding elements to their overall development vision for Eve in the next year+. The scope is beyond things like bug fixing, which is just an assumed part of any kind of development.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#156 - 2012-11-25 11:41:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rutger Janssen
Snow Axe wrote:
Rutger Janssen wrote:
As I only skimmed over the document and the posts, I do apologize if I missed it.

I don't see any mention of bug fixing.


This document is trying to sell CCP on adding elements to their overall development vision for Eve in the next year+. The scope is beyond things like bug fixing, which is just an assumed part of any kind of development.


This is document is about the strategic vision, including the balance between iteration and new features. I can't dispute that bug fixing is part of iteration, but I would like to get this mentioned seperatly. If bugs are only fixed when that area is iterated over. It's going to take years for some things to get fixed.

Bug fixing is often assumed, but I do believe that it a budget is allocated for it and if it doesn't fit, it isn't fixed. So therefor would like to be this taken into the strategic visin and a larger budget to be allocated for it. Or atleast a discussion about it.

And one might even reason that because it's assumed, it doesn't get the attention it should. Assumption is the mother of all messups.
Frying Doom
#157 - 2012-11-25 11:42:11 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
So every patch has had resources devoted to Null except Inferno. Maybe you can tell me how much has just been used on Hi-sec or Wormholes in that same amount of time?


I'm just going to step in and say Incursions and Mining Barge Buffs were added, and that Highsec and Wormhole Space are generally healthy. Wormhole Space helps attract players to the game because of it's capacity to tell stories, but lets face it; nobody ever started playing an Eve Online trial because of how amazing High Security Space is. 0.0 is a marketing tool as much as it is a player retention tool, and with nullsec's mechanics being complete garbage, it is failing at its vital purpose of making Eve marketable.

Excuse me if I am wrong but don't incursions and also effect lo-sec and Null space? So nothing at all for Hi-sec except the disastrous war dec alterations.

As for 0.0 as a marketting tool the only thing that really made it to the main stream media ( I listed the last years above) where primarily things like Burn Jita, things that occurred in Hi-sec , yes CCP has made a couple of movies you would percieve as null like "I was there" but that would have been more authentic if the interceptors where actually cruisers that light a cyno field and the other side suddenly had a massive set of supers and capitals to deal with.

Evelgrivion wrote:
Iteration to make highsec better is important, and it has been receiving it. Beyond that, high security space simply is not worth prioritizing new, high profile features for at this point in time. Nullsec, being the heart and soul of the social engine that drives non-player interest in Eve Online, is in desperate need of an overhaul to restore that interest. CCP doesn't have very many internet communities to acquire a pool of new players from, which makes general distributed presence in social media, be they facebook, twitter, or random internet forums, all the more important.


High sec has actually recieved very little the NPE has gotten some much needed love in Inferno but it is mostly the same as it has always been with improvements caused through patches that improve the whole game. As to the social engine yes some of the Null groups use external forums and this has done them well but those same sights are now spread everywhere in every imaginable game.

The best external recruiting of the game is done by the players them selves, not some of them but all of them and while it is important to fix Null it is more important to keep the largest number of possible players happy. Also those that may join EvE for the huge Null fights soon learn that unless they are from one of those external forums those doors are closed.

But Null does need fixing to be honest it actually needs a special team to plug away at it and the first thing should be a road map, that details all future plans for it as well as its goals and interactions with other parts of the game.

Not just more wasted resources.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#158 - 2012-11-25 11:43:23 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Wormhole Space helps attract players to the game because of it's capacity to tell stories, but lets face it; nobody ever started playing an Eve Online trial because of how amazing High Security Space is. 0.0 is a marketing tool as much as it is a player retention tool, and with nullsec's mechanics being complete garbage, it is failing at its vital purpose of making Eve marketable.


People may decide to try eve for a number of different reason, when it comes to mmo's eve is unique in many ways, and if you are bored with the mainstream fantasy mmorpg games, eve probably is the best known alternative if you want to try someone completely new/different.

Some may like the aspect of trade and/or industry/research/production, you can easily is 2-3 hours a day just building and selling stuff, you are going to have a hard time finding a game with a as fully featured market and production system as eve. Others may like the idea of scamming and griefing, which not many games offer as freely as eve, and others may just like the space/science fiction environment.

Many surely join the game to take part in 0.0, but it's not the only reason to join the game, and it's not the only way to have a good time playing eve.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#159 - 2012-11-25 11:53:31 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Tian Jade wrote:
First of all, the CSM does not represent me in any form. As an EVE player not represented by anyone in the CSM I distance myself from this document.

Aside from a bit of blabla the iteration of features comes down to: More ressources to Null

The fact alone that so much of the ressources have been thrown at them in the past few years created a lot of the imbalances in the economy and the EVE gameplay.


Such as?

Since Dominion (Winter 2009), which was actually a step backwards for 0.0 in many respects, what "resources" have been "thrown" at 0.0? Every expansion since then has either been completely non-specific with respect to zone, (Incarna, Tyrannis, Crucible) or Empire-focused (Inferno, Incursion). Before Dominion was Apocrypha, which was W-space. Before that was Quantum Rise which introduced new industrial ships mostly used in hi-sec, before that was Empyrean Age, which was wholly Empire focused, before that was Trinity, which did actually bring some new stuff for 0.0.

Ok expansions that have had resources wasted on Null sec including the waste used on Super balancing, rebalancing, nerfing and just plain turning them into coffins

I wont go before December 2009 (the last truly monstrous waste of time on Null.)


  • Crucible (well just before TiDi)
  • Incarna
  • Incursion
  • Tyranis
  • Dominion


So every patch has had resources devoted to Null except Inferno. Maybe you can tell me how much has just been used on Hi-sec or Wormholes in that same amount of time?



Right yes, the effort spent in removing drone bays from Titans is certainly comparable to an entire expansion dedicated to faction warfare Roll

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-11-25 11:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
dexington wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Wormhole Space helps attract players to the game because of it's capacity to tell stories, but lets face it; nobody ever started playing an Eve Online trial because of how amazing High Security Space is. 0.0 is a marketing tool as much as it is a player retention tool, and with nullsec's mechanics being complete garbage, it is failing at its vital purpose of making Eve marketable.


People may decide to try eve for a number of different reason, when it comes to mmo's eve is unique in many ways, and if you are bored with the mainstream fantasy mmorpg games, eve probably is the best known alternative if you want to try someone completely new/different.

Some may like the aspect of trade and/or industry/research/production, you can easily is 2-3 hours a day just building and selling stuff, you are going to have a hard time finding a game with a as fully featured market and production system as eve. Others may like the idea of scamming and griefing, which not many games offer as freely as eve, and others may just like the space/science fiction environment.

Many surely join the game to take part in 0.0, but it's not the only reason to join the game, and it's not the only way to have a good time playing eve.


This is generally true, but in my experience, the prospect of spending 2 to 3 hours a day building, selling, and looking at spreadsheets does a lot more to drive prospective players away from trying the game than to draw them to it.

To thrive, Eve Online must have good story generators. Without throwing away and replacing several of the game's core mechanics, it's hard to figure out how industry could become a good story generator in and of itself. For lack of a clear road forward, it is much smarter to invest in a strong system of 0.0 play than most other areas of interest.

Eve Online lives or dies on the strength of 0.0, and right now, nullsec is unnervingly weak.