EVE General Discussion

i like it but it makes no mention of the WIS prototype...

I used to think this CSM was totally useless when it came to fixing real issues.

After seeing this document, I am more confident. Clearly somebody in the CSM gets it.


The obvious course for CCP is to fix POSes. If done right it can solve all three problems at once (0.0 lack of real objectives/reward, lack of 0.0 industry, POSes being ****).

I had a chuckle at the "giant-panda-themed bosses" thing. You guys do realize that said game has had absolutely no trouble maintaining 10+ million paying subscriber player base for 8 years and counting? And recently broke a 1 million concurrent user record in September?

Further, in all of this, the main questions that should always be asked are:
"Who is this for?"
and
"How will it improve the game?"

For example, Incarna had no answer to either question. Inferno improved FW, but not everyone cares about FW, so it fell largely on deaf ears. The upcoming AI change also doesn't seem like it was entirely thought out, because while it is theoretically for everyone, it doesn't really seem to improve the game, unless you consider adding more hassles and hoops for players to jump through as an improvement.

I'm also not too sure how I feel about the whole two-expansion iteration thing, where first expansion lays down the ground work and second expansion brings in the payoff. Could lead to many problems, like downright broken stuff for half a year. See the FW mechanics introduced in Inferno, and how much obscene ISK was made as a result of exploitation of those blatantly broken mechanics until they were recently changed, and more fixes coming in Retribution. Six months or more of broken game can do a whole lot of harm. Perhaps a better idea would be ONE expansion per year, but it comes out finished and polished and working. Not half-donkeyed and broken and needing years of iteration to bring up to snuff.

The rest of it? Once again far too much focus on 0.0, Sov, PoS, etc. You guys (CSM in general) need to realize that 60% of EVE's playerbase live in hi-sec. As such, they don't give a toss about 0.0. Or Sov. And to a large degree about PoS. If you are going to talk about player retention, you NEED to talk about hi-sec. Not about how to make 0.0 better or more profitable. Because, like it was said so many times before, no matter how good or profitable 0.0 becomes, it will won't make those 60% in hi-sec go there. It is a conscious decision based on many factors. And nerfing hi-sec to force people into 0.0 will force people out of the game instead.

So, as far as the suggested focus in this paper goes? Seems to focus on the 40% living in low/null and WH space. And not on 60% (majority) living in hi-sec and making them happy (continuing to subscribe).

Please stop talking about higsec. We've had several consecutive highsec expansions, and are about to get another one. Nullsec is where all the real content comes from, the content that attracts new players. A huge battle between two nullsec coalitions with hundreds of titans and high stakes is a better advert for the game than some new button orbiting or NPC killing expansion. Of course, nobody uses titans or supers anymore since the botched nerf, but that's besides the point.

Well, I tend to just talk about whatever is a problem in the game, regardless of what sector of ~space~ it's in.

Also, this picture is relavent.

That's a heck of an assumption. Quite a few people find large blob/zerg battles rather uninteresting, actually. This gets confirmed over and over again in MMO world.

Look at the recent GW2 release. The game has small scale PvP (structured PvP), but the main draw was supposed to be World vs World vs World - a huge three-way battle between three servers, in a huge map, with keeps, supply outposts, resupply chains, siege weapons, the works. Problem is, most people really didn't like WvWvW because it very quickly evolved into a large zerg blob roaming around the map. Servers with tens of thousands of players stomped servers with just hundreds of players. Players on those servers got mad and transferred to larger servers, only exacerbating the issue by merging themselves with an already large blob. End result? Several huge blobs in a stalemate, and nobody wants to play it, and subscriptions are starting to decline. Exactly what we're seeing in EVE, except subscription loss is hidden by increased alt propagation.

To further support this, the most popular MMO in the world today (and for the past 8 years) does not have large scale battles and blobs. Biggest one I believe is still 40v40. And while in theory world PvP can get larger than this, in practice it very seldom happens. If small scale was less popular than huge zergs/blobs, the game would have tanked. It didn't. Hence small-scale where individual skill plays more of a role is preferable for many players.

Plus, the fact that the majority of the population lives in high sec suggests that they weren't attracted by 0.0 or fleet fights. Or they wouldn't be living in high sec to begin with.

too little, too late?


And, yes, it's all about 0.0 at the expense of highsec. When the CSM only represents 0.0, I not sure what anyone else would expect....

if you want to be taken seriously then don't repeat arguments that have been debunked long ago - such as equating characters with players.

Here's a story for you:

pre-Dominion: 0.0 players generate income via lvl4 high-sec alts
Dominion - Incursion 1.4: 0.0 players actually earn their income in 0.0
Incursion - Escalation to Inferno: 0.0 players generate income via (high-sec) incursion alts
Escalation to Inferno - Inferno: back to high-sec lvl4s
Inferno - October 23rd: 0.0 players generate income via FW plexing alts
October to now: back to high-sec lvl4s

Historically it has been the norm that 0.0 players are expected to be self-sufficient - which generally meant having income-generating alts in empire. Dominion brought a short break in that routine as it made actually living in 0.0 (as opposed to only logging in your 0.0 character for fleets) a worthwhile option. Since Incursion 1.4 we are back to normal.
A sizeable part of your "60%" are alts of 0.0 players who would be moved to 0.0 if risk vs reward was favorable.


(Forsaken Hubs have been buffed but are in my experience not comparable to lvl4 income (at decent LP conversion rates), farming c4-c6 wormholes has been an option ever since Apocrypha but requires more organization & effort than many players are willing to invest.)

More to the point we need to change the assumption that "income" for 0.0 players means "mindlessly smooshing red pluses in order to spawn even more ISK into an over-inflated economy".

0.0 income generation should also include production, resource gathering, research and trading, just as it does in hi-sec.

The document suggests exactly that... (Lack of nullsec industry is a major section)