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Dev Blog: Back to the balancing future!

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Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#601 - 2012-11-07 22:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Marlona Sky wrote:
And even if your fleet desired those amazing info bonuses; why pick the Eos over the Vulture? Most likely any recon type fleet will be shield tanked. So again, the Eos would be looked over.

Perhaps we do in fact need more combat link lines added. Drones and energy (nos, neut and smartbombs?) and even hull tanking links. Just some food for thought...

Are you saying no one would use info links with an armor fleet?

Also if we expand this beyond just looking at the Eos, as we should, what is wrong with my siege warfare boosting claymore/sleipnir in my shield nano gang?
Tess La'Coil
Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
#602 - 2012-11-07 22:36:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Actually, per the blog you can.


Quote:
Reimbursement details:
With the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, it also means that you will still be able to fly an Apocalypse even if you don’t have the Amarr Battlecruiser skill trained at 4 after the change. It won’t matter as long as you have the Amarr Battleship skill at the proper level.


Correct, and I was thinking the tree always worked from a high level multiplier down to a lower so you'd always first loose the highest skill.. this is right for almost all ship skills I came across so far, but I just found one that proves me wrong. (Capital Industrial 12x, prereq Capital Ships 14x.) so there you could loose Capital Ships skillpoints before you get purged from a Rorqual which would be the result of loosing Capital Industrial Ships.
Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#603 - 2012-11-07 22:49:43 UTC
Tess La'Coil wrote:
And seeing as Caldari Carrier has a higher multiplier, it will be gobbled up before the Battleship skill is consumed by dying in Alpha Clones.

Point still being, you cannot currently fly in a Carrier without having the BS skill. And it will never be possible, as the higher ranked skill loss will make you loose the prereq's from the top down.

Can't you train a skill without the prereq if you already have it injected ?

I explain : you need BS5 to learn carrier skill, though, when carrier is injected, do you still need BS5 to only train it ?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#604 - 2012-11-07 23:00:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
And even if your fleet desired those amazing info bonuses; why pick the Eos over the Vulture? Most likely any recon type fleet will be shield tanked. So again, the Eos would be looked over.

Perhaps we do in fact need more combat link lines added. Drones and energy (nos, neut and smartbombs?) and even hull tanking links. Just some food for thought...

Are you saying no one would use info links with an armor fleet?

Also if we expand this beyond just looking at the Eos, as we should, what is wrong with my siege warfare boosting claymore/sleipnir in my shield nano gang?



Nothing is wrong with it, its fine, but of course its used now. Right now, the Claymore, Vulture, and Damnation all see heavy use, near constant. The Eos isn't used.

What we're asking is if they've thought about the fact that making this chagne, while great and allowing for diversity in the other command ships (which is great), wont see any increase in the use of the Eos unless you can get command links to cross over all leadership mods because in almost every situation the other 3 command ships are better.

And yes, I'm in fact telling you that nobody uses Infolinks in armor fleets. We have armor fleets now near constantly and they WOULD benefit from having info links, but those links aren't used because the fully bonuses skirmish and armor links are simply more important.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
#605 - 2012-11-07 23:03:52 UTC
@Fozzie
While I think it is good to bring the BCs to the same general level of usefulness, I also think that each ship should somehow retain some of the characteristics it has previously been known for. In general the re-balanced BCs should be about the same overall level but with different capabilities. None of the ships should be nerfed totally into the ground.

In case of the drake I think it is important not to take a previously excellent ship and nerf it into a less than mediocre ship of its class. I like the drake even though I do not fly it often anymore. And although I think that many PVP will find this irrelevant I think the ship remains important for new players in PVE as a way to get a good start in EVE to earn isk through missions.

I think that the drake should retain its shield resists since the tank has already been indirectly nerfed via the heavy missile nerf (requiring to sacrifice some slots for additional range and damage modules to boost damage application). Since the drake is a rather slow ship it is difficult for it to run away (and it is relatively easy to catch up with). Therefore, I think it needs be durable and able to take some punishment (also relevant for PVE) and if the resist bonus is removed a substantial part of its tank is removed.

If you want to remove a slot, I think it should be a high-slot, unless you think of adding an 8th launcher to the ship. Anything else will negatively impact on tank and/or damage application.

I think that if the tank ability of the ship is removed the ship does not have much going for it anymore – the dps is not that good, the tank will be rather low, the ship is quite slow, and the range has been significantly reduced, i.e. I do not think there will be much reason to fly it – which I think is contrary to your re-balancing efforts to provide a reason to fly all of the ships.
However, without knowing the details of the changes to the drake, it is difficult to make an evaluation of the re-balancing of the ship.

Of course, I totally agree that players should always do what is necessary in terms of cross-training, fittings etc. to keep their options open to be able to cope with the re-balancing, I just think that IF players choose to fly the drake they should have the choice in fittings to either field a strong (passive) tank/low damage or make some tradeoff in the fitting – let the players make the choice. In the end it should remain a good viable ship in line with other BCs for both PVP and PVE.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, not that it matters much, and I am sure that there are plenty of players who disagree with me – which they are fully entitled to :) . The drake should not be overpowered, but neither should it be underpowered just because it may have been overpowered for a long time.
Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#606 - 2012-11-07 23:10:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Reticle wrote:
Quote:
With this in mind, it becomes quite obvious to focus on training the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills before the change to get the maximum return effect. We highly recommend you start doing so now.

Translation: this change will be made on Dec 4th


I'll come right out and say the skill changes will not come on December 4th with Retribution but that you should still seriously consider taking them into account when you pick your next skills.

I hope the skill change will be announced at the very least 1 week before the change... 1 month would be better obviously.

also, what happen if you have a skill partially trained ? say I have BC4 trained at 50% to level 5, will I get racial 4 or 4+50% after change ?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#607 - 2012-11-07 23:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tess La'Coil wrote:
Please research before you make inaccurate claims:
Yes, please do, and preferably from an official, moderated source: “If your pod is lost and you don’t have a clone that covers all your skill points, the first points you’ll lose will be from the skill your points are highest in.”

IOW, you will lose SP from BS V (2M SP) long before you lose it from Carrier IV (600k SP) simply because you have more SP in the battleship skill, and when you lose those battleship SP, absolutely nothing happens to your ability to fly a carrier. The rank only matters in so far as it means that at the same skill level, you will have more SP in a higher-ranked skill than in the lower-ranked one, so of the two, the higher-ranked skill will lose SP first. What actually matters for the skill selection is the amount of SP, not the rank.

Quote:
And...
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Chimera
Clearly shows you, as will in-game pre-req show you that
The primary skill is Capital Ships I, the secondary skill is Caldari Carrier I, and the tertiary skill is Jump Drive Operation I. The wiki somewhat obscures this fact by not nesting the skills properly, but it's readily apparent in-game, as is it on a proper DB browser. Note how only three skills — the primary, secondary, and tertiary — are at the outmost layer. Only those three are the prerequisites for the ship — only one skill can be primary; only one can be secondary; only one can be tertiary.

Caldari Battleship V is a prerequisite to the Caldari Carrier skill, but not to the Chimera. You can have 0 SP in Caldari Battleship and still fly the Chimera as much as you'd want.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Can't you train a skill without the prereq if you already have it injected ?

I explain : you need BS5 to learn carrier skill, though, when carrier is injected, do you still need BS5 to only train it ?
You should be able to train it just fine once you've injected it, even if you lose the prerequisite. At most, it might stop you from triaining lvl I if you've left it injected but untrained, but since people rarely do that, it's academical anyway. The prereq for training a skill to lvl II is to have it at lvl I, so already there, the need for any other prereq skills is gone.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#608 - 2012-11-07 23:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Grath Telkin wrote:

What we're asking is if they've thought about the fact that making this chagne, while great and allowing for diversity in the other command ships (which is great), wont see any increase in the use of the Eos unless you can get command links to cross over all leadership mods because in almost every situation the other 3 command ships are better.

This is probably an argument that should be saved for the actual rebalance of the ships. We don't know how the Eos will shape up when the time comes. If the sole purpose was to get people in Eos's, then yes, this isn't the way to do it. However, since the goals seem more centered around giving command ships more variety and versatility overall, which does by necessity buff the Eos if done as planned, then all is going well I'd say. Not to mention that it raises the number of other boost ships from 3 to 7.

So to sum it all up, you are correct in that this may not draw more people to the EOS, though at the same time nor does splitting the bonuses if the reasons for picking a Damnation over it remain.
Chico Marten
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#609 - 2012-11-07 23:21:05 UTC
Chico Marten wrote:
What is the rush to go to BC5, from what I can tell the last ships open up at BC3, you only need BC5 for the Command skill. Am I missing something?

My current plan is to train BC3 and racial Cruisers to 3.


rodyas wrote:
^ T1 BCs still gain bonuses from each level of BC you have. Like a drake gets 5% more shield resistance and 5% kinetic damage for each lvl. You should at least train BC to lvl 4 for those bonuses. But lvl 5 does have more benefits then just unlocking the T2 ships.


Maybe i'm missing something but when I check the BC skillbook it makes no mention of additional bonuses per level.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2012-11-07 23:23:50 UTC
Chico Marten wrote:
Chico Marten wrote:
What is the rush to go to BC5, from what I can tell the last ships open up at BC3, you only need BC5 for the Command skill. Am I missing something?

My current plan is to train BC3 and racial Cruisers to 3.


rodyas wrote:
^ T1 BCs still gain bonuses from each level of BC you have. Like a drake gets 5% more shield resistance and 5% kinetic damage for each lvl. You should at least train BC to lvl 4 for those bonuses. But lvl 5 does have more benefits then just unlocking the T2 ships.


Maybe i'm missing something but when I check the BC skillbook it makes no mention of additional bonuses per level.

The bonuses are on the ships themselves.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#611 - 2012-11-07 23:24:05 UTC
Chico Marten wrote:
Maybe i'm missing something but when I check the BC skillbook it makes no mention of additional bonuses per level.
Check the actual battlecruisers.
Deise Koraka
Caldari Investigations and Forensics
#612 - 2012-11-07 23:37:58 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530

This megathron quote in particular:
"Megathron: just like the Thorax on the cruiser level, the Megathron role will be changed slightly to make it less resilient, but more mobile so to make proper use of blasters. Think of it as a ship closer to the Typhoon in terms of speed and agility. Next to a Talos, it will be more durable, more flexible, but still cumbersome to have in small gangs."

The Gallente BS hulls already have roles; Hyperion, Dominix, Megathron are specialized ships that do their respective things well(and not so well).
Dominix: AFK drone mission runner.
Hyperion: General fail blaster boat
Megathron: General use, malleable BS

Make the Hyperion the "BS thorax" and leave the mega alone.

.....unless you aren't going to touch the Faction and Marauder variants. Then I guess....it might be slightly ok.

I am a carebear, and I support High Sec ganking and PvP. Just please, don't blow up my Hulk*. **<3 **

*Mackinaw as of Inferno 1.2

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#613 - 2012-11-07 23:38:56 UTC
You should post it again, maybe they didn't read it the first time you posted it....or the second time

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Bercelak Cadwaladr
Perkone
Caldari State
#614 - 2012-11-07 23:44:43 UTC
There are two things concerning me:

First, an ETA for the skill change should be given (at least a "not within 3 months" would be nice), since you already said that we should start skilling for this change. Most of us have skill plans that are at least targeted for a short time and a long time goal, since this already requires us to make huge changes, it would be nice to know if we have to delay our short time goal (which in my case is substantial for one of my accounts to get profitable, but the long term goal is to have all races available at some point) or can add the skills behind it.
And please make this ETA binding, since we rely on it.

Second: Skill times.
It is already extremely hard for new players to get into BCs and bigger and being able to fly them with a decent fit. With changing the requirements (BS needs BC, Cruiser needs Destroyer), this time is already increased. If a new player then wants to fly pirate BSs too, this time is increased even further, because they need the Dessy and BC skills of that race too now.
As i see it, time to get a BS as fast as possible (skipping Dessy and BC) is doubled; not considering implants/remappings and going to BS 3, which is the least necessary to get going, it's from ~9 to ~18 days and for pirate BSs from ~18 to ~36 days.
This may seem small, especially compared to the other skills necessary for a decent fir, but for a new player this is huge, considering he is introduced with skills just taking a few hours, and makes the start into the eve universe much more disencouraging.
I think the way to BS shouldn't take much longer than now, which could be accomplished by either reducing the requirements (BC just needs Cruiser 3 etc.), reducing the trainingtimes of the racial Dessy and BC skills or reducing the ship trainingtimes in general (e.g. reducing all ship skill multipliers, though which would lead to "unspent" skillpoints for players already having the skills).

Just my wall of text ;)
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#615 - 2012-11-07 23:48:57 UTC
Bercelak Cadwaladr wrote:


First, an ETA for the skill change should be given (at least a "not within 3 months" would be nice), since you already said that we should start skilling for this change. Most of us have skill plans that are at least targeted for a short time and a long time goal, since this already requires us to make huge changes, it would be nice to know if we have to delay our short time goal (which in my case is substantial for one of my accounts to get profitable, but the long term goal is to have all races available at some point) or can add the skills behind it.
And please make this ETA binding, since we rely on it.


He's pretty much bluntly stated in the most direct way I've ever seen CCP state that you should do it "now". In 6 years playing this game I've never had a dev come so imcredibly clean about what you SHOULD do so I'd take that exactly as its meant, if you care, alter your skill plan NOW.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#616 - 2012-11-07 23:51:12 UTC
Bercelak Cadwaladr wrote:
Second: Skill times.
It is already extremely hard for new players to get into BCs and bigger and being able to fly them with a decent fit.


its not that long....


Bercelak Cadwaladr wrote:
With changing the requirements (BS needs BC, Cruiser needs Destroyer), this time is already increased. If a new player then wants to fly pirate BSs too, this time is increased even further, because they need the Dessy and BC skills of that race too now.
As i see it, time to get a BS as fast as possible (skipping Dessy and BC) is doubled; not considering implants/remappings and going to BS 3, which is the least necessary to get going, it's from ~9 to ~18 days and for pirate BSs from ~18 to ~36 days.
This may seem small, especially compared to the other skills necessary for a decent fir, but for a new player this is huge, considering he is introduced with skills just taking a few hours, and makes the start into the eve universe much more disencouraging.
I think the way to BS shouldn't take much longer than now, which could be accomplished by either reducing the requirements (BC just needs Cruiser 3 etc.), reducing the trainingtimes of the racial Dessy and BC skills or reducing the ship trainingtimes in general (e.g. reducing all ship skill multipliers, though which would lead to "unspent" skillpoints for players already having the skills).


sorry bro, in the grand scheme of EVE, 36 days is a walk in the park. I trained for 9 months before I ever touched a battleship.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Tess La'Coil
Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
#617 - 2012-11-08 00:00:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Holy crap, I had no idea. I learn daily in EVE thanks :)

Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
Tess La'Coil
Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
#618 - 2012-11-08 00:04:07 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

sorry bro, in the grand scheme of EVE, 36 days is a walk in the park. I trained for 9 months before I ever touched a battleship.


To be honest thats how it's supposed to be in my perspective.. not burning to a BS and being **** at it. First start using Frigs, which are now all going to be useful to use, you have a the whole range to try out to see what you like now before you have to go for a Dessy/Cruiser/BC/BS. It should be encouraged to use the smaller stuff before blowing your load in a bigger ship only to have it come out as dust.
Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#619 - 2012-11-08 00:26:03 UTC
I still remember undocking in Jita with a Raven. I had only been playing for 14 days. The amount of local smack was amusing.
Herren Varno
Steel Dust Heavy Industries
#620 - 2012-11-08 01:34:18 UTC
Viribus wrote:
I still don't understand the people who agree that warfare links are bad for small gangs, but then say the solution is to make warfare links only available to large fleets by forcing them on-grid

Boggles the mind.


QFT

I get the impression that a significant proportion of the Eve community thinks small gang = less than one hundred.

Ever since t3s could no longer be made unprobeable, there really has been no legitimate case for whining about them*. Whatever happened to HTFU? Go probe them out - make them warp or cloak-up.

*I realise that there's something to be said about use of links in POSs, but I don't really encounter such things in low-sec, and if I ever do, I'll just accept it as a home advantage and fight in another system/bring more dps.