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Dev Blog: Back to the balancing future!

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Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#581 - 2012-11-07 21:45:27 UTC
Now if info bonuses was changed to drone bonuses for HP, damage and speed; then an Eos for spank and tank would be an option.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#582 - 2012-11-07 21:48:45 UTC
Blubsia wrote:
What about our red-headed stepchildren, HACs Question

Ever since 2006 less than a handful are worth the pricetag....and in limited set-ups


They are next line line after CS and T3 i hope.
I hope they take their cue from the Attack cruisers less tank more gank and mobility.
I'd love to see the deimos getting another falloff bonus and the eagle becoming a blaster boat too as naga kind of kills its role off.
75% sig reduction MWD for role bonus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#583 - 2012-11-07 21:53:34 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I'm not really seeing the advantage of separating bonuses. As the plan stands one can simply change clones and links and you have a new fully bonused set of links without changing ships while also having a choice of weapons systems which will be more relevant if/when the changes come that force boosters to be on grid.


Ok, ask yourself this: Not many trained for an Eos (CCPs own words not mine), CCP are making a drive to get people into hulls that aren't used, after this change, what motivates you to train for the commanship (Eos)nobody uses now when a Damnation can do the same thing?

EDIT: It feels like the idea of haviing multiple bonuses was to make the ships more attractive to use, like the Eos could run a mixture of Info and Armor links, thus people MIGHT start fielding them in fleets, but if you must still pick only a single set, then of course you'd pick the armor set, and the Damnation would be the preffered choice because of its more robust tank if it needs to be on grid.

2 things here:
1) The solution you propose doesn't just affect the Eos situation. It takes a (planned) hull which could go fully bonused either way, though admittedly not both and sends it in one direction.
2) Part of the goal seems to be to have not just the Damnation but also the Absolution, Eos and Astarte be viable vessels for this task (in the case of armor). Depending on how this is done we may not have the damnation stand out so far, or at all in any terribly great degree, as the go to ship of choice for armor boost because of tank. Remember that what we are looking at isn't simply a bonus change.

Though, both of those aside I'm still not seeing why this is inherently bad or detracts from anything. I'd love having a tanky Eos that fits in giving armor bonuses with a small group of domi's/ishtars. Or maybe a fully bonused laser using booster ship that I can fit armor links on. I'd rather gain choices than lose them since some might not use them. Also, why is this only coming up now while we've had multi-type bonusing T3's for a while?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#584 - 2012-11-07 21:53:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Pick the appropriate clone (and mindlink) for that particular fleet.



By your logic the change is essentially useless then, and will have little to no effect, because in a non shocker thats exactly what you have to do now, so one might wonder whats the point in altering the command ships at all.

Why not leave the fleet comman as single bonus ships and instead of double stacking bonuses give the field commands the alternate bonus instead.

So like the Damnation gets the armor bonus and the Absolution can give a skirmish bonus. The idea of multiple bonuses off one hull seems wasted if they're not going to be fully bonused, eve is full of min maxers, and it seems silly to waste time programing something that simply wont be used.

Example:
My character can only fly Amarr BC's.
Currently, if I want to utilize the ship to it's fullest I can only boost Armor.
After patch, if I want to utilize the ship to it's fullest I can boost Armor OR I can boost Skirmish, whichever is more appropriate (and remember, I am only skilled to fly Amarr BC's).
The only thing I need to do is be in the appropriately linked jump clone.

As you say, EvE is full of min maxers so I'm sure you are quite familiar with the practice of having different jump clones outfitted with implants specific to different ships/fits/duties.

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Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#585 - 2012-11-07 21:53:51 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I'm not really seeing the advantage of separating bonuses. As the plan stands one can simply change clones and links and you have a new fully bonused set of links without changing ships while also having a choice of weapons systems which will be more relevant if/when the changes come that force boosters to be on grid.


Ok, ask yourself this: Not many trained for an Eos (CCPs own words not mine), CCP are making a drive to get people into hulls that aren't used, after this change, what motivates you to train for the commanship (Eos)nobody uses now when a Damnation can do the same thing?

EDIT: It feels like the idea of haviing multiple bonuses was to make the ships more attractive to use, like the Eos could run a mixture of Info and Armor links, thus people MIGHT start fielding them in fleets, but if you must still pick only a single set, then of course you'd pick the armor set, and the Damnation would be the preffered choice because of its more robust tank if it needs to be on grid.



Maybe the idea is that once the battlecruiser skills are separated into the four racial versions, it will eventually be less prevalent that people will be able to fly all four races' command ships. In that situation, you might have someone who can fly the Eos but cannot fly the Damnation. Given the present trends in PvP ships, I think that would be incredibly unlikely, but that is the direction CCP seems to want people to go - to be focused on one, perhaps two, races of ships, not train all the things.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2012-11-07 22:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not really seeing the advantage of separating bonuses. As the plan stands one can simply change clones and links and you have a new fully bonused set of links without changing ships while also having a choice of weapons systems which will be more relevant if/when the changes come that force boosters to be on grid.


With the racial mindlink you only boost the racial warware link. So let's assume you have an armored mindlink and put two armor warfare mod and one skirmish warfare mod on your Damnation: only the armor warfare mods get their 50% boost from the 50 to 250 mil mindlink implant (depending on the type).

Correct, but which ship is worse at giving armor bonuses, a 3% armor link bonused damnation or a 3% armor and skirmish bonused damnation?
Neither.

Which ship allows you to use a HAM and skirmish (or possibly info based on dev coments) link bonused ship?
The latter.

Which allows you to have 1 ship with some spare mods and a JC jump between 2 link types as needed?
The latter.

So there is no disadvantage created here. Hence I'm asking why it is a bad thing. Because it may not be used? Because the least used may not see much of an increase? Neither of those are negative in any tangible way.
Denegrah Togasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#587 - 2012-11-07 22:01:57 UTC
Between this change and the New ECM defense skills which are basically another required skill it feels like CCP hates new players and wishes to put even more of a emphasis on if you weren't here in the beginning **** off.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#588 - 2012-11-07 22:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Also, why is this only coming up now while we've had multi-type bonusing T3's for a while?


No we don't, I don't know who told you that but t3's boost one thing and one thing only, Loki's do skirmish, Legions do Armor, Tengus do Shield, and Proteus do Info (lol)


Ranger 1 wrote:

As you say, EvE is full of min maxers so I'm sure you are quite familiar with the practice of having different jump clones outfitted with implants specific to different ships/fits/duties.


Ok so why would you ever pick an Eos over a Damnation? How often have you heard either a small gang FC or a large fleet FC go "Man i wish we had an Eos", or even head of a player purposely training for an Eos?

Again, I can do all of it, so I don't care one way or another, but I'm just trying to get the purpose behind the change and mitigate potentially wasted time while we still have the chance and the changes are fairly far off.

PL does in fact frequently run Skirmish Damnations now, its not that big of a deal by any stretch of the imagination, but if the goal here is to make the Eos line more desirable as a command ship I think this change might miss the mark if mindlinks aren't altered with it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#589 - 2012-11-07 22:02:46 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Blubsia wrote:
What about our red-headed stepchildren, HACs Question

Ever since 2006 less than a handful are worth the pricetag....and in limited set-ups


They are next line line after CS and T3 i hope.
I hope they take their cue from the Attack cruisers less tank more gank and mobility.
I'd love to see the deimos getting another falloff bonus and the eagle becoming a blaster boat too as naga kind of kills its role off.
75% sig reduction MWD for role bonus

Actually I could see the Eagle becoming more of a mid range Rail boat with damage / tracking bonuses.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tess La'Coil
Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
#590 - 2012-11-07 22:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tess La'Coil
Tippia wrote:
Dracko Malus wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Skill requirements are only to START training the skill, not to keep it.

This means that you can still keep flying a carrier even if you lost battleship 5 since you still have the carrier skill.

Incorrect, you're confusing skillbook requirements with Ship prerequesite to "activate" it.

No, he's spot on. You don't need a single SP in Battleship to fly a Carrier. All you need is Carrier I, Capships I, and Jump Drives I. Those are the prereqs for a standard carrier and it doesn't matter that the Carrier skill has Battleship V (soon BS IV) as a prereq.

Quote:
If you loose BS5 of the race, you'll currently be purged from your ship. But you'd have to be pretty stupid.. as dying in an AlphaClone affects the highest multiplier skills.. and there are a lot more you'll have to burn through before loosing a BS5 skill.
If the ship doesn't require BS V to fly — in other words, if it's not a T2 battleship — then losing that skill level makes no difference. Also, BS V is a very likely skill to be hit in the case of a podding. The SP loss mechanic doesn't care what multiplier the skill has; it just goes after whichever skill has the most SP in it, and BS V is 2M SP. Between Carrier IV (600k SP) and BS V (2M SP), you'll lose BS 5 first.


Please research before you make inaccurate claims:
Source: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Pod_Death
If you are pod killed while possessing more skill points than your clone is rated for, your highest ranked, highest level skill will lose training points. The amount lost depends on the difference between the maximum skill points of the clone and the number of skill points possessed by the pilot. The maximum amount of skill points that can be lost is 2,048,000.

And...
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Chimera
Clearly shows you, as will in-game pre-req show you that Caldari Battleship 5 is a secondary requirement for "Caldari Carrier" skill. There is no "standard carrier" there are only 4 racial carrier skills. Each currently require the Racial Battleship level 5 skill. But I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.. the way it looks atm is that you're saying I can activate any ship I have incomplete secondary/etc skills for. Which I can tell you, is not the case.
Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#591 - 2012-11-07 22:05:10 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Also, why is this only coming up now while we've had multi-type bonusing T3's for a while?


No we don't, I don't know who told you that but t3's boost one thing and one thing only, Loki's do skirmish, Legions do Armor, Tengus do Shield, and Proteus do Info (lol).

You are correct, my mistake. But that in no way addresses the bulk of my point.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#592 - 2012-11-07 22:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Grath Telkin wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Also, why is this only coming up now while we've had multi-type bonusing T3's for a while?


No we don't, I don't know who told you that but t3's boost one thing and one thing only, Loki's do skirmish, Legions do Armor, Tengus do Shield, and Proteus do Info (lol)


Ranger 1 wrote:

As you say, EvE is full of min maxers so I'm sure you are quite familiar with the practice of having different jump clones outfitted with implants specific to different ships/fits/duties.


Ok so why would you ever pick an Eos over a Damnation? How often have you heard either a small gang FC or a large fleet FC go "Man i wish we had an Eos", or even head of a player purposely training for an Eos?

Again, I can do all of it, so I don't care one way or another, but I'm just trying to get the purpose behind the change and mitigate potentially wasted time while we still have the chance and the changes are fairly far off.

PL does in fact frequently run Skirmish Damnations now, its not that big of a deal by any stretch of the imagination, but if the goal here is to make the Eos line more desirable as a command ship I think this change might miss the mark if mindlinks aren't altered with it.

I understand where you are coming from on this, and I'm not trying to mindlessly be snarky to you (sorry if I came across that way).

I think you need to also keep in mind that ships like the Eos (in fact, the Eos in particular) are going to be radically changed. I strongly doubt that the Damnation is going to stand out from the pack in it's strengths like it does today, and the Eos will likely be unrecognizable from it's current stats.

IE: I think the answer to your question will become more apparent as the hard data for the full set of changes (including changes to active tanking and the Drone interface) becomes available.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Sunrise Omega
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#593 - 2012-11-07 22:09:16 UTC
Quote:
As a side note, as we announced a while ago, we are not pleased by having Warfare Links work outside the battlefield zone, and will be investigating options to move them on grid. Command and Tech3 ships providing that much of an advantage should commit to an engagement instead of being safely parked inside a POS bubble.


If they just go with "on-grid" then grid-fu will rule the day and you'll end up with boosters sitting at 2500+ km away from the fight.

They'll need to rework the booster system to be based on distance from your squad/wing/fleet booster. Within a certain radius from your booster, you get full effect, then a partial effect, then no effect. This would also create a way that you could introduce new modules and skills that affect the "full-boost" range vs the "partial-boost" range. Maybe you install a T2 module that boosts your range by 33%, or one that increases the distance between full boosts and no boosts.

This would also force fleets to pay more attention to keeping squads / wings near each other in order to get maximum leadership boosts.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#594 - 2012-11-07 22:10:20 UTC
Tess La'Coil wrote:

And...
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Chimera
Clearly shows you, as will in-game pre-req show you that Caldari Battleship 5 is a secondary requirement for "Caldari Carrier" skill. There is no "standard carrier" there are only 4 racial carrier skills. Each currently require the Racial Battleship level 5 skill. But I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.. the way it looks atm is that you're saying I can activate any ship I have incomplete secondary/etc skills for. Which I can tell you, is not the case.

Actually no, Caldari Carrier I alone is the secondary skill required. The rest under it are just the trail of perquisites for injecting Caldari Carrier.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#595 - 2012-11-07 22:10:37 UTC
IF ONLY FOZZIE WOULD PAY ATTENTION TO ME

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#596 - 2012-11-07 22:15:20 UTC
Tess La'Coil wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dracko Malus wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Skill requirements are only to START training the skill, not to keep it.

This means that you can still keep flying a carrier even if you lost battleship 5 since you still have the carrier skill.

Incorrect, you're confusing skillbook requirements with Ship prerequesite to "activate" it.

No, he's spot on. You don't need a single SP in Battleship to fly a Carrier. All you need is Carrier I, Capships I, and Jump Drives I. Those are the prereqs for a standard carrier and it doesn't matter that the Carrier skill has Battleship V (soon BS IV) as a prereq.

Quote:
If you loose BS5 of the race, you'll currently be purged from your ship. But you'd have to be pretty stupid.. as dying in an AlphaClone affects the highest multiplier skills.. and there are a lot more you'll have to burn through before loosing a BS5 skill.
If the ship doesn't require BS V to fly — in other words, if it's not a T2 battleship — then losing that skill level makes no difference. Also, BS V is a very likely skill to be hit in the case of a podding. The SP loss mechanic doesn't care what multiplier the skill has; it just goes after whichever skill has the most SP in it, and BS V is 2M SP. Between Carrier IV (600k SP) and BS V (2M SP), you'll lose BS 5 first.


Please research before you make inaccurate claims:
Source: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Pod_Death
If you are pod killed while possessing more skill points than your clone is rated for, your highest ranked, highest level skill will lose training points. The amount lost depends on the difference between the maximum skill points of the clone and the number of skill points possessed by the pilot. The maximum amount of skill points that can be lost is 2,048,000.

And...
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Chimera
Clearly shows you, as will in-game pre-req show you that Caldari Battleship 5 is a secondary requirement for "Caldari Carrier" skill. There is no "standard carrier" there are only 4 racial carrier skills. Each currently require the Racial Battleship level 5 skill. But I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.. the way it looks atm is that you're saying I can activate any ship I have incomplete secondary/etc skills for. Which I can tell you, is not the case.


You only need the prerequisits when attempting to train the skill for the first time, not to fly the ship.
If you somehow lost the prerequisit skill after training the primary skill (say Caldari carrier), or never had it in this case where the prerequisits are changing, you still have the Caldari Carrier skill and can fly the Caldari carrier.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tess La'Coil
Messerschmitt Vertrieb und Logistik
#597 - 2012-11-07 22:16:24 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tess La'Coil wrote:

And...
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Chimera
Clearly shows you, as will in-game pre-req show you that Caldari Battleship 5 is a secondary requirement for "Caldari Carrier" skill. There is no "standard carrier" there are only 4 racial carrier skills. Each currently require the Racial Battleship level 5 skill. But I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.. the way it looks atm is that you're saying I can activate any ship I have incomplete secondary/etc skills for. Which I can tell you, is not the case.

Actually no, Caldari Carrier I alone is the secondary skill required. The rest under it are just the trail of perquisites for injecting Caldari Carrier.


And seeing as Caldari Carrier has a higher multiplier, it will be gobbled up before the Battleship skill is consumed by dying in Alpha Clones.

Point still being, you cannot currently fly in a Carrier without having the BS skill. And it will never be possible, as the higher ranked skill loss will make you loose the prereq's from the top down.
Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother. 
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#598 - 2012-11-07 22:18:52 UTC
Tess La'Coil wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tess La'Coil wrote:

And...
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Chimera
Clearly shows you, as will in-game pre-req show you that Caldari Battleship 5 is a secondary requirement for "Caldari Carrier" skill. There is no "standard carrier" there are only 4 racial carrier skills. Each currently require the Racial Battleship level 5 skill. But I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.. the way it looks atm is that you're saying I can activate any ship I have incomplete secondary/etc skills for. Which I can tell you, is not the case.

Actually no, Caldari Carrier I alone is the secondary skill required. The rest under it are just the trail of perquisites for injecting Caldari Carrier.


And seeing as Caldari Carrier has a higher multiplier, it will be gobbled up before the Battleship skill is consumed by dying in Alpha Clones.

Point still being, you cannot currently fly in a Carrier without having the BS skill. And it will never be possible, as the higher ranked skill loss will make you loose the prereq's from the top down.

Unless you have a situation exactly like the one we are discussing in this thread, where the required prereq's are changing and you don't have the new ones. You will still be able to fly the ship.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#599 - 2012-11-07 22:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Tess La'Coil wrote:

Point still being, you cannot currently fly in a Carrier without having the BS skill. And it will never be possible, as the higher ranked skill loss will make you loose the prereq's from the top down.

Actually, per the blog you can.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#600 - 2012-11-07 22:29:45 UTC
And even if your fleet desired those amazing info bonuses; why pick the Eos over the Vulture? Most likely any recon type fleet will be shield tanked. So again, the Eos would be looked over.

Perhaps we do in fact need more combat link lines added. Drones and energy (nos, neut and smartbombs?) and even hull tanking links. Just some food for thought...