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Dev Blog: Back to the balancing future!

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Raziel Tyrael
Euphoria Released
#401 - 2012-11-07 01:19:22 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:

As for the "ow ow my OGB alt!" crowd talking about their ability to "small gang/solo PVP being nutpunched" because OGBs in massively over-linked Tengus sitting at POSs allow them to "even the odds:...no. Sorry, no excuses.


What I would like to see as alternative is either:

1. Gang links can't be turned on inside POS shield
(Maybe) 2. Gang links have effective range of 1 AU (maybe add a skill that increases range towards 1 AU or uses 1 AU as base range)

OR

1. Gang links can be turned on in warp (that is they don't shut down during warp)
Same maybe number 2 as above.

I don't know about you guys, but to be honest I never saw RL general giving boost to his fleet on the front line :)

If OGB would need to be on grid, then you would loose a lot by the time you turn on links, especially on siege / skirmish point of view (initial alpha damage over smaller ressist, and shorter tackle)

Also, not to mention CPP wise that lots of people would sell their OGB characters and discontinued running that accounts.
Ships running links usually can have the tank, but can't add any dps (unless you carry one link, but then you won't be using mindlink). So basically removal of offgrid boosters would only give T2 battlecruiser which people wouldn't be using that much in pvp or pve since you can find better alternatives.

So if boosting from POS while watching movie is main issue, just make links offline inside of the bubbles
And don't tell me its a same thing if somebody leaves them on the edge of the bubble, because I have my bomber ready to bomb or bump and torp :)
Sgt Napalm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#402 - 2012-11-07 01:22:57 UTC
Although it is great CCP has recognized that Command Ships require some love the current 'balance' idea is not enough to make Command Ships more viable for boosting. The Tech 3 variants still have a better survivability chance than the CS counter parts.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#403 - 2012-11-07 01:27:29 UTC
I personally have no problem making the Phoon a torp boat. It is how I have always flown mine, with 4/4 or 5/3 torp-neut layouts. Yes, you can do 4/4 and turn it into an evil neut Domi clone from Hell.

I like the versatility of the ship, but stripping AC bonuses won't reduce that. I do like the idea of 5 mids so you can get a better shield tank for a Nanophoon (currently it's 65-70K EHP so in essence, a nanodrake), but either way you will have versatility with your highs in the mix of torps/neuts, your tanking choice, and indeed your drone bay.

As for the Prophecy turning into a drone boat...this would actually work really well as you have so many lows and a decent tank anyway, you can pile the DDA's in and get uber DPS from a flight of Hammerheads. Like, probably close to 550 with whatever popguns you can fit up top (but realistically, it'll be neuts). All the ship really needs is to sub out the cap use bonus for lasers with a drone damage bonus/drone speed bonus, add another mid (for web, TD, or shield tank) and expand the bandwidth to 50 and drone bay to 150 and you will be set.

Of course, then you need to buff the Damnation so it is useful in combat and can fit a full rack of HAMs and a brick tank when you restrict everything to on-grid boosting. Right now, yes, you can get 330K EHP but absolutely zero DPS, and this doesn't fit the model of a CS being combat oriented. To my mind, all CSs will need at least 500 DPS output and 100K tank or a 800 DPS active tank (Sleip/Claymore).

As for the Eos, you give me 5 ogre IIs and I will be happy.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#404 - 2012-11-07 01:27:45 UTC
Raziel Tyrael wrote:
Also, not to mention CPP wise that lots of people would sell their OGB characters and discontinued running that accounts.


The same sort of worries surrounded the Falcon nerf but it had to be done anyway. Long term game balance should be the priority over preserving people's auxiliary accouts. If such a toxic mechanic as off grid boosting continues the game will have a decline in the long run because of how stupid and overpowered a mechanic it is. Besides, alts can do a lot of things, I'd wager that not as many people would cancel their accounts as expected. It's really easy to get used to having a second toon do all your main's legwork (especially when you are -10), I imagine/hope that a lot of people would find new purposes for their alts rather than cancel them.
Mordecai Heller
Offstation Fund Administration
#405 - 2012-11-07 01:33:55 UTC
Quote:
Oracle, Naga, Talos and Tornado: are mostly fine, except for the mobility which is a little too high, and signature radius, which could be increased a bit. Apart from this, little needs to change.


I thought mobility was the whole point of them?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#406 - 2012-11-07 01:58:57 UTC
I'm not sure what I think of this. Seems very generalized, yet thought out at some level. Not sure I like where it's going, though some of the changes are appreciated and seem good. Gank links on Tech 3 for instance.

I don't however like how gang links were referenced on Command ships, such that a Tech 3 is more Combat capable with Links, yet for Tech 3s it was stated that they would 'still' be relatively capable. So what does that make Command Ships? Slightly better than a T1 Cruiser?

What was that about Battleships? Seems like they either don't need anything, or are just going to be tweaked a bit. Not looking good on that front.

I know balancing is demanding, but if you don't step back and take a breather once in awhile, it becomes less balancing, and more just kicking things around. That sounds like where you are at now. I'm hoping that is just because its been a long run and this is a ways off yet.

Somebody get these guys a vacation; they deserve one. Cool
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Traidir
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#407 - 2012-11-07 01:59:45 UTC
For the command ship roll rework, you Devs might consider something completely new: like Dust 514's "Commander" roll. The command ship's "gang links" would give increased visibility and fleet coordination (perhaps even requiring other people's ships to have the link in order to benefit rather than the command ship).

Effectively, like Dust Commanders, this would require a new fleet wide (or solar system wide?) interface with command ships playing a "meta" roll in battle along with their potential for combat rolls. Rather than just boosting their fleet's stats, the command ship's "link processors" would need to grant the "commander" special capabilities for deploying and directing the fleet: e.g. system-wide-anti-fleet-surveillance, fleet bookmarks (using intel from the surveillance to rapidly move elements of the fleet around), limited-jump-detection-and-interdiction, ect... (basically things that help to favorably shape the "chess board" of battle).

This would shift the "Command" ship benefits from the ship's modules to the player. Otherwise, command ships are just another ship whose most meaningful battlefield decisions are made before undocking. *boggle*
Aramis Defranzac
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#408 - 2012-11-07 02:28:40 UTC
Personally I love the shifting of power, like old cloths eventually they come back in style and I can were them and be the cool kid :)

Do you think we could have one caldari platform that has 8 torp launchers?

I vote no on the torps for the phoon...yes for autos, make it a GINORMOUS sfi/vaga!!! Twisted
Mohini
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#409 - 2012-11-07 02:30:12 UTC
Could someone clear this up for me please.

We are no longer able to sit in a POS boosting the fleet with warfare link modules.

So if i am in a Rorqual and want to fleet boost all my hulks I would need to warp out of the Pos and Siege the rorqual for full boosts.

If this is the case surely you have just killed the rorqual as a ship 90% of people will switch to Orca boosting.

Also to use the industrial Core would i also need to be outside of the Pos? I don't think it would be worth the risk to ever compress ore again so i would defiantly scrap the Rorqual except for possibly hauling the raw ore from belts.

Fairly new to eve hence why i'm asking about this.

Thanks
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#410 - 2012-11-07 02:48:31 UTC
more than one bonus for different links is pretty much useless because you can use only one type of mindlink and mindlink is most important thing to get good bonuses.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#411 - 2012-11-07 03:00:37 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Omnomnom!

This is a delicious post!

- Eos and Myrm, 5 heavy drones? Zomg.
- Prophecy not sucking gigantic bollocks? Zomg
- Nanomega? Zomg.
- Siege/Skirmish boosting Minnie CS's? Zomg
- HAMnations? Zomg.
- Armour/Siege Amarr CS? Zomg
- Infolinks being technically buffed by allowing Caladri CS's to get bonuses to fitting them? Zomg.
- oceans of tears from OGB alts and/or their mains, threatening to quit EVE because they get a 2% Warfare Link bonus and can't sit in a POS? Zomg, om nom nom nom! *happyfrotting*



These are tears I have been waiting for for years now. With improvements in ewar ships, I will prove wrong all those guys who laughed at me getting an eos. mwa ha ha. Am emptying a special bottle of rum just so I have something to collect the tears.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#412 - 2012-11-07 03:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Bad Messenger wrote:
more than one bonus for different links is pretty much useless because you can use only one type of mindlink and mindlink is most important thing to get good bonuses.


True. However in small gang where you might only have one pilot, is nice to have that secondary bonus all the same. In large fleet, would be no change.

Mohini wrote:
Could someone clear this up for me please.

We are no longer able to sit in a POS boosting the fleet with warfare link modules.

So if i am in a Rorqual and want to fleet boost all my hulks I would need to warp out of the Pos and Siege the rorqual for full boosts.

If this is the case surely you have just killed the rorqual as a ship 90% of people will switch to Orca boosting.

Also to use the industrial Core would i also need to be outside of the Pos? I don't think it would be worth the risk to ever compress ore again so i would defiantly scrap the Rorqual except for possibly hauling the raw ore from belts.



You have brought up a very valid point. I didn't read anything on the bubble prevention of the industry core. They only referenced pos bubbles as that is where most boosters will sit. Good intel channels and defence would be needed to properly use the industry core for bonus. However ccp has said they wanted sov space to be more tight knit, so in a way it is a hidden nerf. If people want their super mining of the rorq, well the industry and combat might need to start to work together. Also they need shorter cycle time on the cores to match siege mode.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Shadoo
North Eastern Swat
#413 - 2012-11-07 03:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadoo
There are few more ship classes in EVE, which enjoy a 99% CPU reduction to gang links -- yet do not enjoy any kind of boost to module efficiency.

Keeping in-line with the sub-capital model of ship classes with the 99% reduction to cpu usage, have you considered looking at adopting similar line on the capital model of ship classes with the 99% CPU reduction -- which do not today get effectiveness bonuses to any of the 3 classes which can fit the modules.

So as you've proposed, after change for sub-capitals: Tier 1 BC gets no bonus, only cpu reduction. T2 CS gets 3% + cpu, T3 gets 2% + cpu.

How about: Carrier gets no bonus, only cpu reduction, Supercarrier gets 3% + cpu, Titan gets 2% + cpu.

About time my 6 command link LEVIATHAN had a boosting role to go with FC5 skill :colbert:.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#414 - 2012-11-07 03:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Obviously, Rorqual will need to gain Mining link bonuses as a role bonus on the hull, not the industrial core. Since people will carry a small POS just to shield the Rorqual, perhaps Rorqual needs to gain POS shields and reinforcement timer from the core: jump capable small POS with industrial core, versus in-belt boosting and long range tractors without the core.

Versatility, utility, balance. That is what this exercise is about, right!

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#415 - 2012-11-07 03:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Shadoo wrote:
How about: Carrier gets no bonus, only cpu reduction, Supercarrier gets 3% + cpu, Titan gets 2% + cpu.

About time my 6 command link LEVIATHAN had a boosting role to go with FC5 skill :colbert:.


And remove the hull-based fleet boosts too? Though I would love to see six-link titans having a major advantage. Perhaps move current hull bonuses to new warfare links?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#416 - 2012-11-07 03:18:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Berendas wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Berendas wrote:
Tarra Nobilii wrote:
Prophecy: expected to be changed to a drone boat. This is a role revamp that will radically modify its slot and fitting layout. It will most likely have less bandwidth but more drone bay than the Myrmidon.

On top of being sacrilegious, this seems a daft idea; 1) armor drone boats cannot take advantage of new mods for lows along with their tank, 2) there is already and armor drone boat (myrmidon), 3) Amarr do not need drones, we shoot things with lasers. I understand the need for balance...but this is not balance to me.


This was really the only other beef I had with what was in the dev blog. Making the Prophecy a drone boat just doesn't make all that much sense to me. A T1 missile boat for the Amarr would be more reasonable imo, as it would be a good lead in to the Khanid ship line.

With very few exceptions the Amarr have ALWAYS favored drone use and usually have good sized drone bays. The Prophecy is basically following in the same line as the Armageddon, which has a large drone bay in addition to it's powerful lasers.

While I too am personally fond of missile boats (I am rather fond of Khanid ships) the use of drones as a strong secondary weapons system in all other cases has been clearly spelled out since Tiericide was first laid out.



Amarr use drones to compliment lasers to be sure, but only as a secondary weapon system, there really isn't any existing Amarr ship that uses drone capability as a selling point beyond the Armageddon. The notable exception being the Amarr recons, but I would consider them a special case since one of their bonused EWAR's uses high slots which deprives them of any weapons besides drones. I would be hesitant to support a drone bonused T1 Amarr hull because there are far more missile bonused Amarr ships than drone bonused ones. Putting a missile bonused hull in Amarr T1 would help newer pilots far more than one with drones as its focus.


Lets take a look at what changes we have coming shortly to Amarr drone bays,

Tormentor Drone bay already increased
Magnates Drone bay to be significantly increased
Crucifiers Drone bay to be increased
New Amarr Drone Destroyer (Dragoon) primary weapons system
Arbitrator uses Drones as primary weapons system
Augoror Drone bay to be significantly increased
Omen Drone bay significantly increased
Maller Drone bay given a drone bay for the first time

and the ones we also have now.

Sentinel uses drones as primary weapons system
Pilgrim uses drones as primary weapons system
Curse uses drones as primary weapons system
Legion can be set up as a drone boat
Armageddon uses a full set of heavy drones to supplement it's lasers
Redeemer uses a full set of heavy drones to supplement it's lasers

All other Amarr Battleships and many ship classes have at least a significant drone bay, likely to soon be expanded even more.

All Amarr Navy ships have at least the same drone bay size, and often larger, than their base models.

Amarr have always had a strong drone dependency, second only to the Gallante. This trend has already been announced as being a major theme in the upcoming ship balancing with Amarr and Gallante drone focused, Minmatar and Caldari missile focused. We will continue to have interesting exceptions to the rule as we do now (Khanid for example), which I view as a good thing, but the main focus is quite clear.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#417 - 2012-11-07 03:24:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Markus Reese wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
more than one bonus for different links is pretty much useless because you can use only one type of mindlink and mindlink is most important thing to get good bonuses.


True. However in small gang where you might only have one pilot, is nice to have that secondary bonus all the same. In large fleet, would be no change.

Mohini wrote:
Could someone clear this up for me please.

We are no longer able to sit in a POS boosting the fleet with warfare link modules.

So if i am in a Rorqual and want to fleet boost all my hulks I would need to warp out of the Pos and Siege the rorqual for full boosts.

If this is the case surely you have just killed the rorqual as a ship 90% of people will switch to Orca boosting.

Also to use the industrial Core would i also need to be outside of the Pos? I don't think it would be worth the risk to ever compress ore again so i would defiantly scrap the Rorqual except for possibly hauling the raw ore from belts.



You have brought up a very valid point. I didn't read anything on the bubble prevention of the industry core. They only referenced pos bubbles as that is where most boosters will sit. Good intel channels and defence would be needed to properly use the industry core for bonus. However ccp has said they wanted sov space to be more tight knit, so in a way it is a hidden nerf. If people want their super mining of the rorq, well the industry and combat might need to start to work together. Also they need shorter cycle time on the cores to match siege mode.


Well, since POS's are not likely to keep their bubbles (shields) for very much longer it's rather a moot point. They are going to have to figure out how to properly protect these ships anyway soon.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#418 - 2012-11-07 03:32:56 UTC
Skill training question:

It's not pertinent to my main, as I'm already at 5, but what happens if:

I have the ability to fly all the BCs. (racial cruiser 3+ for all)
I'm training BC5, but don't quite make it in time.

Do I end up with all the racial BCs at 4, with no additional skill points, or is my skillpoint level for BC just copied across all of them? (I suspect it's the latter)

So if I'm 1000sp off BC5, after the change, I'm 1000sp off amarr BC 5, 1000 sp off caldari BC5 and so on.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#419 - 2012-11-07 03:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
More deaths to split weapons ships.

O when o When Will my Nagifar have 3 guns? I have a party planned where 40 of use are going to cyno into a cap fight and ready aim Capitol Arties FIRE and see how many we alpha before we all die in a fire.

Sooner rather then later please CCP.


Anywho,

Ferox - No, sniper = no. Why in gods name would anyone use it as such when the Naga is around. Unless you change medium rails into some OP broken crap. So just no. Change its Range into ROF and its Resist into Tracking please.

Cyclone's split weapons system? please end it. Split weapons are bad. How about a nice Assault Missile bonus and a Active bonus with a nice built in speed buff and an extra mid slot?

Tempest is not fine either btw. Tempest has one foot in about 5 different doors. Focus it a little more please. This shield tanking armor tanking, AC, Arties boat needs love. Jack of All Trade, master of **** all, and bettered by the other races at everything.

Ur Shield Mega? really? Really? Cause you can't kite around in an armor tanked ship, unless you wanna look ********. So its getting 6 mids slots then? As a Domi has 5 already and more dps now with the drone buff. Unless you're dropping the Domi to 3? But shield Mega?

*Note I love the idea of a 2000DPS shield Mega with a 10% damage and tracking bonus, However 4 Mids and you may as well use as Talos, 5 and Its just a Domi with no drones. So something will have to give.

The Skill changes, Ur thanks for taking so long. My Archon alt now has BS 5. Soon to be wasted skill points because you took too damn long changing the skills. Just bite the bullet and change them already. No need to wait for the BC changes. Just press the button. On that note.

Please answer this question CCP
If you have Frig 4, Cruiser 5, BS 5 with 0 Destroyer and Battlecruiser, what skills will you get post change.

As to fly my Archon I would have to have Destroyer something and Battlecruiser something. Two skills I have no interest in at all. Cause the Alt flies a Guardian or an Archon. Nothing else. No gun skills, No drones skill other then those needed for the Archon.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Erim Solfara
House of Solfara
#420 - 2012-11-07 03:41:17 UTC
Please don't take my prophecy's lasers away, I've stuck with it since it was released, I've resisted the urge to fly it's better, younger, brother, you can't take it's lasers, it's just not right damnit!