Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Sure, that makes sense.

Now you understand how irrtitating it's to hear about 'min-maxers' who don't want to fit magical ECCM when ECM ships already are a bunch of min-maxers on their own? They are just one-trick ponies, they can't tank, they can't tackle or shoot (for the most cases).

Ewar needs a complete rehaul and should incorporate eccm changes, that's for sure.

I find min-maxing is a necessary evil for ECM as when compared to other E-War activities it is chance based as opposed to a consistent effect (Which doesn't actually bother me). When a jam doesn't drop I go "Oh Sh!t" and have to adapt my piloting style to compensate and it can make a match somewhat interesting from the ECMing perspective. But essentially I am trying to max my abiltiy to jam out the target as my tank.

My primary issue with these changes though is that it is encouraging passive bonuses as the "solution" where as I like the chess philosophy of EvE. Where you attempt to out maneuver your opponent, often times people lose because they did not take time to gather information on their surroundings, then they fall into a trap and feel stupid as a result. Where as I would love to have the option to fit ECCM - fall into the trap, focus fire their ECM ship and GTFO.

The issue with the ECCM module is that it does not provide an active bonus like other "Counter" modules do. As such its use is somewhat limited to solely ECM opponents. Should sensor strength provide a bonus against all E-War I believe that may be the change itself that will help people make the decision at the fitting screen. But I will be dissapointed if its bonus drastically reduces all forms of E-War, as opposed to only effecting them softly.

Why all the whining about ECM and why does CCP seem so intent on changing it?

When flying ECM I never come across a logi that is not ECCM fit. They are VERY VERY effective at turning a Blackbird into a laughable choice for a fleet fight which is why you really don't see a ton of ECM being fielded as things are. If it was the end-all-be-all broken mechanic, wouldn't you see them a lot more often, as in, 30% of any fleet every time?

ECCM is working great as a counter to ECM. These new skills are something everyone will have and therefore will nerf ECM significantly. As a ECM pilot I have to either have intel on what the opposing fleet is flying or take my chances with a rainbow fit. The same applies to people trying to guess if ECM will be on the field and deciding whether or not to fit ECCM or go 100% optimized DPS/tank and hope for the best...or have intel.

When flying ECM I already have a ton of things that can ruin my day:

1) ECCM fits on obvious ECM targets like logistics. FC orders me to jam the logi. Jams fail 90%. My ship is a brick.
2) Tier 3 BCs and other snipers can hit my no-tank ECM bird no problem and destroy me in seconds or force me off the field.
3) Fast frigates can burn to me within seconds. Each one that does so takes up a jam to deal with, and realistically I need to leave the field before they close in or probably die.
4) Damps. One damp and my sniper perch is blown, and I need to leave the field.
5) Jams. Stop hating on ECM so much and maybe someone will field an ECM boat on YOUR side.
6) Bad intel. Scout was wrong or enemy was clever and now my jams are all mismatched. My ship is a brick.

Every update seems to bring more bad news for ECM pilots. But its never enough to quell the angry mob of min/maxers who simply don't want to deal with ECM with fittings or implants that shave a few points off of their precious fits. ECM is part of the game, and although the mechanic may be simplistic, it's a lot of fun. Eve constantly forces players to adapt, adjust, and survive. For some reason this doesn't seem to apply to ECM though. Seems like most people think the only way to counter ECM is to pour tears on it until CCP nerfs it out of the game.

Damp buff - about time.
TD "nerf" - Really guys, it's a nerf. We swear. That said, I like where TD is right now.
TP hull bonus - Good compromise
ECM changes - completely off-track.

The problem with ECM is not that it's overpowered (though it is very strong at a small-gang level), it's that the mechanic itself is unfun. If my rifter is heavily damped I can pilot to point blank to reacquire a lock. If my turret ship is TDed I can pilot to reduce my range and transversal and my guns keep shooting. If I'm target painted I can drop in closer to mitigate the increased tracking of my opponent's guns.

If I'm jammed? Sorry. SOL.

Additionally, ECM is unfun to the players fitting it. Dedicated EWAR pilots for 3/4 races can fit 1-2 mids with their ewar and be effective, leaving mids open for a light shield tank and lows uncluttered if armor is the desired tanking layer. ECM pilots fit with 1) MWD 2) ECM rainbow 3) more ECM in any available mids 4) SDAs in the lows. At least 4 ewar mids are needed to be reliably effective, cutting any thoughts of a shield tank to ribbons, and caldari ships are (rightfully) bereft of lowslots to fit an armor tank, even ignoring the need to use those lows to increase their ECM effectiveness. This leave everything about ECM in an unfun state of hard lines below which ECM has no effect whatsoever and above which it is completely effective. Neither pilot can fly in such a way to change the impact of the ECM.

If I'm using a TD, I can fly to put my opponent at a disadvantageous range/transversal.
If I'm using a damp, I can fly to put my opponent at a range at which he cannot lock me or cause him to be slower in reacuiring me as a target.
If I'm using a TP I can fly to make use of the increased tracking and missile damage in my favor.

In all of these cases, my fitted tank is allowed to work as intended, the EWAR simply existing to reduce my incoming damage relative to my opponent.

If I'm jamming, I cross my fingers and pray to my chosen deity that the jams hold. I cannot fly in such a way to increase their effect - that was decided at the fitting screen and in the skill queue. Incoming damage is either cut to zero or not affected in any way.

Player who have chosen to play a game do not like being told that they cannot play the game for 20-second increments.

{armchair designer}
You know what system doesn't have any ewar aimed at it that ECM would flavorfully fit into? Drones. Gallente pilots love their drones, Caldari corporations have every incentive to research ways to disrupt the electronic connections that an enemy ship has to its drones. As a side effect, the jamming signals hindering drone control could also negatively impact missile control.
{/armchair designer}
But that's just my pipe dream for ECM rework

Most EWAR forces you to close range. The Caldari doctrine wouldn't want you to close range. What if ECM weakened sensor strength over optimal / falloff / double falloff, so that the counter to ECM was to move away from the jamming boat? That would support a sniper doctrine quite well. ECCM would then be the obvious choice for close-range ships trying to get into position against ECM.

Well, you got me. I mostly fly frigates in PvP due to my character being in FW. A single damp is capable of completely screwing over my kiting ships, or screwing my brawlers against kiting ships (as if they weren't already). I was specifically talking about the Maulus, in fact. That's one of the ships that I'm going to fear greatly after the patch.

I don't mind damps on larger ships, as they're doing what they're supposed to do. But frigates have an inherently low locking range, and any modification on that cripples them.

I've never been one to complain about third party EWar. It just means that they had the numbers, and if that person were in a combat vessel, I would have likely lost my ship anyways.

And I know ECM is the same, but at least when I get decently higher Sensor Strengths, in a 1v1 the Griffin isn't likely to break my tank and all it'll take is one missed cycle for me to break it. Damps never miss within optimal. I'll never get that "one missed cycle". I'll just be sitting there forever, until he blows me up, or he REALLY screws up.

On the plus side I do believe they plan on reducing the capacitor cost of each cycle for dampeners. Couldn't find the post on it. Looking at the Celestis, it should be able to sport a decent armor tank while devoting four slots to sensor dampening. Though I am a bit ignorant as to how much dampeners are needed to lock down the typical target completely.

Yes I would ideally like to see sensor dampeners being able to drastically reduce alot of ships ranges down to 10km or so. This may be overpowered, but what can I say -I would love to damp someone down fore good while I peck at them from a range or force them into eating my blasters. Even if it takes all sensor dampeners to do so, it will provide a constant effect that is crippling.

There are a million reasons why ECM is both awesome and terrible, however, it is currently one of two real counters to logistics balls. This change nerfs one of them.

I would say that currently, logi is reasonably balanced against ECM (that is, it's relatively strong, but not impossible). Please lower logi base sensor strength in proportion to the lowered default ECM strength, so that meta isn't destabilized.

Thank you.