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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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fukier
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-11-03 18:38:43 UTC
How about a skill that reduces the time you cannot lock atarget when you are ecmed?

something like 10% per level so that at lev V you can only jammed for 10 seconds each jam? that and increase the cycle time of ecm.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2012-11-03 18:49:08 UTC
There was nothing wrong with *any* of the EWAR to begin with except for the whining noobs on the receiving end who couldn't HTFU and make their fleet dynamic enough to overcome the mechanics.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#183 - 2012-11-03 19:00:27 UTC
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
Because fitting a LR ship to kite SR ships doesn't immediately gimp me against every other possible gang comp out there. Fitting an ECCM gimps me against everything that is not ECM. This is why people are happier with damps / TDS: naturally, people fit modules to maximise the stats these types of EWAR affect.

The second reason is that there is only one place to counter ECM: before you undock. Every other type of EWAR can be countered in space (stay outside of Point / Web / Neut range, burn close to your target against damps, fly to optimise your tracking / range against TDs). The only thing you can do against ECM is blap it, which isn't really a counter because you can't do it if it's affecting you.

Indeed, thouth I took this for the screwed mechanic.

When you fit a TD ship and you encounter a missiles/drones ship, you are screwed too, and that's from the fitting screen. Basicaly, any time you fit a situational module, your fit is screwed for all the other situations. Some fits can counter some other fits, always.

IMO, the problem is more about the counter, ECCM, to be only useful for countering ECM. Either sensor strength should be useful for more than just ECM and probing or ECCM should something more than only rising your sensor strength.

Maybe ECCM could buff scan resolution or signature radius, or both, and maybe have scripts for all these.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#184 - 2012-11-03 19:05:30 UTC
Some more thought about an ECCM module with added bonus to scan resolution and signature radius : doing this, ECCM would provide advantages other than just countering ECM, but other EWAR can counter these sides effect, then we would have some paper/rock/scissors scheme, with ECM countering standard/EWAR ships, ECCM countering ECM, and standard/EWAR countering ECCM.

IMO, that's the direction where to look, instead of killing universal EWAR idea.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2012-11-03 19:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Maybe ECCM could buff scan resolution .


see sensor booster
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Eridanii
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2012-11-03 19:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Eridanii
fukier wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Maybe ECCM could buff scan resolution .


see sensor booster


What he's saying is that ECCM provides ZERO boost if there's no jamming on the field, while a SeBo does provide benefit in addition to countering one of the other types of ewar. Changes to ECCM could provide additional benefits outside of just being the rock-paper-scissors against jamming.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-11-03 19:42:38 UTC
So what happens to the Griffin/Kitsune/Falcon? Those aren't listed as getting the new hull bonus..

Also.. What about the skills? You're taking away about a month worth of training overnight by nerfing the optimal and falloff. While giving all other races that free month of training basically since they now get the equivalent of 2 skill ranks.

What makes CCP think ECM needed a nerf anyways? I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it. Because so far. it seems like Caldari is on your hitlist.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-11-03 20:39:38 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
So what happens to the Griffin/Kitsune/Falcon? Those aren't listed as getting the new hull bonus..

Also.. What about the skills? You're taking away about a month worth of training overnight by nerfing the optimal and falloff. While giving all other races that free month of training basically since they now get the equivalent of 2 skill ranks.

What makes CCP think ECM needed a nerf anyways? I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it. Because so far. it seems like Caldari is on your hitlist.

0/10
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#189 - 2012-11-03 21:06:10 UTC
interesting changes, i do feel however we have come full circle and nerfed all the races E-war at this point now... first it was NOS, then it was ECM with ECM strength nerf then it was TD and Damps with scripts then neuts with the cap battery changes and now it is TD's again, honestly i felt that TD's were perfectly balanced the way they are now, and this change was un-nessesary, the buff for damps is very much welcome though and the TP buff was welcome also.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-11-03 21:12:24 UTC
Eridanii wrote:
fukier wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Maybe ECCM could buff scan resolution .


see sensor booster


What he's saying is that ECCM provides ZERO boost if there's no jamming on the field, while a SeBo does provide benefit in addition to countering one of the other types of ewar. Changes to ECCM could provide additional benefits outside of just being the rock-paper-scissors against jamming.



ok so how about eccm lowers your sig radius too?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#191 - 2012-11-03 21:16:35 UTC
Another thing to consider is every race, with the exception of Caldari, has two forms of EW. One primary and one secondary. I know some of you will scream Caldari should have all of its EW bonuses piled onto one type of EW, but perhaps having their bonuses split between a primary and secondary will be healthy for the game. Then it would open up the door to moving away from an 'all or nothing' mechanic and move towards something more fluid and consistent type of EW.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2012-11-03 21:37:56 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Another thing to consider is every race, with the exception of Caldari, has two forms of EW. One primary and one secondary. I know some of you will scream Caldari should have all of its EW bonuses piled onto one type of EW, but perhaps having their bonuses split between a primary and secondary will be healthy for the game. Then it would open up the door to moving away from an 'all or nothing' mechanic and move towards something more fluid and consistent type of EW.



so what gimp ecm and add what?

gal = rsd and long range points

min = tp and long range webs

amarr = td and nuets/nos

is there a remaining ewar that could fit in for caldari?

or invent some new one? and if so what would it be that is missing? a remote resistance inhibitor? a mod that reduces the effectiveness of remote repair mods?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#193 - 2012-11-03 21:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
CCP Fozzie wrote:
*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)


Four new skills that will impede new players and put them at a disadvantage until they know to train them and find the time in their skill plan to do it.

Why did you just not plan to buff the sensor strength of all ships by 20% and have done with it? At the very least just have one skill instead of four?

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#194 - 2012-11-03 22:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
So golem gets 10% per level ? 50% at level 5 ?
Question

That should bring it in line with other marauders like for example paladin that has 10% to webing bonus.
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#195 - 2012-11-03 22:17:51 UTC
Good thing my pvp main has a mem/int mapping right now. It will come in handy for those new skills.

/me looks at wiki for my main's alliance for the TP bonused ships, finds only the huginn being used, and that without any TP.

I imagine someone will theorycraft a TP build for the huginn or rapier that might prove to be useful in certain situations.

I realize that this is a quick, small change to ewar, both because there isn't time for a more comprehensive change and because it will allow people to adjust to these small changes before more substantial changes (if any) are made. I can't say I have too much hope for TP regardless, but I've never been called an optimist.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2012-11-04 04:28:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
fukier wrote:
Gneeznow wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Damps will still be useless.


Damps are good now, they'll be even better after the ship changes and damp changes. A celestis can shut down two snipers like tier 3 battlecruisers at 100km with good skills each damp is -51% locking range, how is that useless?



on grid probing is the problem to take full effect of the mod... as you said 100km but snipping used to mean around 180km which will result in you getting probed and interdicted and die to close range ahacs...

so damps are great they just need to fix on grid probing...


Damps suck at ranges > 150Km; that range is Opt+Falloff. Moreover, any gang designed to work at that range is better generally served by more DPS than a dampener. On grid probing has nothing to do with why Damps are bad*.

The range Damps work best at is 80-120Km, which is right where current 'LR' meta is at. With the changes to Damps+Celestis' post Dec this won't change. A one SigAmp Celestis only locks out to 122Km; anything more than that and you have to lose a Damp or gimp your tank. 81 is the new optimal and 120Km is Opt+1/2 Fallof (roughly): Damps will still work best between 80-120Km.

* Well, worse than they should be.

Irregessa wrote:
/me looks at wiki for my main's alliance for the TP bonused ships, finds only the huginn being used, and that without any TP.

I imagine someone will theorycraft a TP build for the huginn or rapier that might prove to be useful in certain situations.


Your main's alliance doesn't run Tier 3 gangs often?

TP Rapier fits are already used ( http://exodus.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14957647 ). TP Huginn ( http://exodus.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15067709 ) fits are sometimes used; but 2 x Webs and Tank, MWD is usually preferrable.
Muggle Shuffler
Wormhole Exploration Limited
#197 - 2012-11-04 05:03:37 UTC
Drones are way more a problem than falcons and such. Pissy little EC-300's seldom miss getting a jam sometime during a 30+ second engagement, even with an eccm'd sensor strength of 40+. It's a bit much.

A falcon being a dedicated ECM ship means a small gang has one less DPS ship also - they're one ship down to bring that utility to the fight. If a gang has one or more of their ships jammed out because of this then so be it.

If you're a solo ship and you get owned because another gang has more than one ship then welp.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#198 - 2012-11-04 05:12:01 UTC
Muggle Shuffler wrote:
Drones are way more a problem than falcons and such. Pissy little EC-300's seldom miss getting a jam sometime during a 30+ second engagement, even with an eccm'd sensor strength of 40+. It's a bit much.

A falcon being a dedicated ECM ship means a small gang has one less DPS ship also - they're one ship down to bring that utility to the fight. If a gang has one or more of their ships jammed out because of this then so be it.

If you're a solo ship and you get owned because another gang has more than one ship then welp.


That falcon can completely shut down 3-4 ships. It can perma-jamb 1 or 2 ships. Most ecm needs tweaking, but ECM's are just a bit over the top atm.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#199 - 2012-11-04 05:13:03 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone. Another set of changes to get feedback on for Retri.
Here's what we currently have on our plate for Retribution:

    ECM
    *Reduce Optimal Range and Falloff of all ECM modules by 10%
    *Add to the Optimal Range and Falloff bonus on ECM range bonused ships by 2.5% for the Blackbird and Tengu Obfuscation Manifold (bringing it to 12.5%) and 5% for the Scorpion (bringing it to 25%)
    *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)

    Target Painter
    *Set the TP strength bonus on TP bonused ships to 7.5% per level for T1 and 10% per level for T2




This and this! my GOLEM LOVES YOU ALL SO ******* MUCH!! this both will help marauders and the target painting might actually help with the insane TP juggling you need to do in a golem to be able to use Torps specially with the guided missile change, if you just fix torps range golem might actually be a really good ship instead of an overpriced raven.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#200 - 2012-11-04 05:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen?

May be because unstopable ship is bad concept ?

What I don't understand is that people don't mind having kiting ship hard countering brawlers but hate EWAR even though EWAR can be countered the same way Lr fit counter SR fit.

Of course, ECM is a bit screwed mecanic, but the concept of fitting to protect against some threat should stay.

The difference is kiting requires efforts; simply fitting a ship for LR means pretty much nothing. EWAR takes no skill whatsoever, and btw neither does ECCM and all other so called 'counters'. It's lametardedly simplistic and that's why it's so effective in case of ewar and so ineffective in case of 'counters'.

A good example of proper concept is neuting vs. cap boosting. Neuting still remains a PITA, but by intelligent cab boosting you can defend yourself quite well, and it actually requires a lot of skills to properly sync all your stuff, not to panic and press cap booster button immediately upon being hit by a heavy neut, but rather wait for the MWD cycle to sync up and so on and so forth. EWAR has nothing of that sort of things.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.