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i am disappointed in null sec people. (TL:DR talking about local chat.) read first post.

First post
Author
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2012-11-17 08:24:47 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:


Wow... it's like I've been talking to forum bots or alts of the same player this entire time. Every single one of you use the exact same argument style. I swear it's like a formula.
"refute OP"
"get refuted by common sense and logic"
"talk down condescendingly and claim they know nothing"
"get refuted with common sense and proof"
"pick one flaw or insult refuter"
"overwhelmed with more proof and logic"
"overwhelm refuter with a gang of post from ally members or alts so the refuter can't respond in a decent time those making him/her appear slow"
"get every post refuted by common sense, logic, and more proof"
"talk condescending some more and troll until refuter and original OP abandons thread"
"refuter trolls back"
"mock refuters intelligents and insult"
"refuter calms down and lures actual information on the topic and their side of the argument"
"refuter has all questions answered and any suggestions that are opposed are poorly refuted"
"refuter still disagrees"
"talk condescendingly and claim they know nothing"
"get refuted with common sense and logic"
"pick one flaw or insult refuter"
"troll refuter instead of forming constructive post"


Instead of focusing on pointing out the flaws in the "style of argument", why don't you actually examine the argument itself? You might learn something.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1022 - 2012-11-17 08:25:51 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Still waiting for the common sense and logic, because it hasn't happened yet. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.


And saying the opposite doesn't make that any more true...
I say we are at a stand still then.
I am tired and I can't keep this going all night and you know this. That's why y'all played a tag team there because of all the different players in different timezones... Or, you all have no lives. Either way, I am going to bed. If you want to debate some more, go back and read my earlier post with Darth.
They refute Darth's arguments and also provides alternatives to replace local.

No they don't and no they don't.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1023 - 2012-11-17 08:27:20 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Still waiting for the common sense and logic, because it hasn't happened yet. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.


And saying the opposite doesn't make that any more true...
I say we are at a stand still then.
I am tired and I can't keep this going all night and you know this. That's why y'all played a tag team there because of all the different players in different timezones... Or, you all have no lives. Either way, I am going to bed. If you want to debate some more, go back and read my earlier post with Darth.
They refute Darth's arguments and also provides alternatives to replace local.


There's no tag team. We all have lives. I've been out for a few hours being busy with mine. Whether we have lives or not is irrelevant. You have yet to refute ANY arguments AT ALL and have done nothing but poke holes in the ones that refute you.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1024 - 2012-11-17 08:29:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Still waiting for the common sense and logic, because it hasn't happened yet. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.


And saying the opposite doesn't make that any more true...
I say we are at a stand still then.
I am tired and I can't keep this going all night and you know this. That's why y'all played a tag team there because of all the different players in different timezones... Or, you all have no lives. Either way, I am going to bed. If you want to debate some more, go back and read my earlier post with Darth.
They refute Darth's arguments and also provides alternatives to replace local.


There's no tag team. We all have lives. I've been out for a few hours being busy with mine. Whether we have lives or not is irrelevant. You have yet to refute ANY arguments AT ALL and have done nothing but poke holes in the ones that refute you.

Imaginary holes he made up that weren't based on the actual argument.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1025 - 2012-11-17 08:29:57 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

"For some time, ganking in 0.0 has just not been worth the effort: it's hard as all hell and you usually can't find anyone to gank. As a result there are frequent calls to make ganking easier — generally by nerfing local. That approach is misguided. Predators don’t tend to die off because they’re not good enough at killing their prey. They tend to die off when all the prey has been killed or driven off, starving to death because they are too good. When you’ve fished out the cod in Cape Cod so effectively the nets are coming up dry every summer the solution isn’t to get better nets: it’s to stop devouring every single fish before they can recover their numbers. Likewise, when you introduce an apex predator into a new enviroment and it quickly butchers everything in sight except the mice, the key to keeping it hunting isn't giving it the ability to catch mice."
.



Quoted because this is probably the most succinct argument against no-local that doesn't even need to delve into the minutia and mechanics.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1026 - 2012-11-17 08:30:41 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Still waiting for the common sense and logic, because it hasn't happened yet. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.


And saying the opposite doesn't make that any more true...
I say we are at a stand still then.
I am tired and I can't keep this going all night and you know this. That's why y'all played a tag team there because of all the different players in different timezones... Or, you all have no lives. Either way, I am going to bed. If you want to debate some more, go back and read my earlier post with Darth.
They refute Darth's arguments and also provides alternatives to replace local.


There's no tag team. We all have lives. I've been out for a few hours being busy with mine. Whether we have lives or not is irrelevant. You have yet to refute ANY arguments AT ALL and have done nothing but poke holes in the ones that refute you.

Imaginary holes he made up that weren't based on the actual argument.


"Poke" is the key word - you have to poke holes out if there aren't any there Blink

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1027 - 2012-11-17 08:32:21 UTC

Quote:
"Conflict is enabled by local, no local forces everyone to hisec, therefore all conflict is in highsec."


Literally not a single person has said this at all. The fact that you are a slavering simp and keep linking to disparate points has everything to do with your incapability of reading beyond the third grade level and nothing to do with the arguments being made.

Let me break it down for you.

Conflict is enabled by local: This is a fleet finding fleet function, the primary tool used by FC's and scouts to be aware of incursions into your space, or find the people you are fighting against. This has literally nothing to do with the second point at all except that both occur in the spaceship game eve online. The reason this is important in null and not wormhole space? Force projection and fleet size. I can reinforce an entire region in about two hours with supercaps and a large subcap fleet backing them up. Without local they would become virtually impossible to pin down if they had enough cyno alts spread around.

No local forces everyone to highsec: This is related almost entirely to isk generation, aka ratting/PI/what little industry actually takes place in null, aka actually "Living" in the space as opposed to just using it as a battleground that you return to when it is threatened. So instead of seeing a "Vibrant nullsec" full of people who live in it, you will see situations which if you were the expert on nullsec life that you seem to think you are you would know already exist. People who live almost entirely in highsec but only come back to nullsec when their infrastructure there is harmed.

And we get to the third point

Therefore all conflict is in highsec: no, because the two prior points are only linked in that they involve the spaceship video game eve online and local mechanics. What little population you see in nullsec already would simply move their daily activities to highsec and come back to null for fights. How do we know this would happen? Because it already does happen, especially in alliances with crappy hard to use space. Even in good space like ours roughly half to a quarter of our membership is engaged in risk free PVE in highsec.

If you tried to pop our towers we'd still come back to defend them, and we'd still keep our PVP ships in VFK.

It's not my fault you can't realize that there may actually be disparate issues with removing local, both quality of life wise and conflict wise.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1028 - 2012-11-17 08:36:50 UTC
But please keep linking to the wikipedia article on logical fallacies and such, it makes you feel smart and I like to be an enabler to the little people.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#1029 - 2012-11-17 08:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth O'Hara
SmilingVagrant wrote:

Quote:
"Conflict is enabled by local, no local forces everyone to hisec, therefore all conflict is in highsec."


Literally not a single person has said this at all. The fact that you are a slavering simp and keep linking to disparate points has everything to do with your incapability of reading beyond the third grade level and nothing to do with the arguments being made.

Let me break it down for you.

Conflict is enabled by local: This is a fleet finding fleet function, the primary tool used by FC's and scouts to be aware of incursions into your space, or find the people you are fighting against. This has literally nothing to do with the second point at all except that both occur in the spaceship game eve online. The reason this is important in null and not wormhole space? Force projection and fleet size. I can reinforce an entire region in about two hours with supercaps and a large subcap fleet backing them up. Without local they would become virtually impossible to pin down if they had enough cyno alts spread around.

No local forces everyone to highsec: This is related almost entirely to isk generation, aka ratting/PI/what little industry actually takes place in null, aka actually "Living" in the space as opposed to just using it as a battleground that you return to when it is threatened. So instead of seeing a "Vibrant nullsec" full of people who live in it, you will see situations which if you were the expert on nullsec life that you seem to think you are you would know already exist. People who live almost entirely in highsec but only come back to nullsec when their infrastructure there is harmed.

And we get to the third point

Therefore all conflict is in highsec: no, because the two prior points are only linked in that they involve the spaceship video game eve online and local mechanics. What little population you see in nullsec already would simply move their daily activities to highsec and come back to null for fights. How do we know this would happen? Because it already does happen, especially in alliances with crappy hard to use space. Even in good space like ours roughly half to a quarter of our membership is engaged in risk free PVE in highsec.

If you tried to pop our towers we'd still come back to defend them, and we'd still keep our PVP ships in VFK.

It's not my fault you can't realize that there may actually be disparate issues with removing local, both quality of life wise and conflict wise.

Anything can be taken out of context when only half of it is quoted. It's actually sarcasm. Tongue in cheek. A play on words. The first two parts have been spoken by Darth and ohhh whats his face? Some one from earlier today. The conflict is actually referring to the nerd rage and temper tantrums that will ensue. There would also be more conflict on the market as well.
I am sure this will be butchered, misquoted, and taken completely out of contexts as well. That is what ignorant people do when they feel they could possibly be wrong. Like small children. Either way, I'm out guys. Good luck arguing amongst yourselves, playing children's card games or whatever you goons do during your free time.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1030 - 2012-11-17 08:47:57 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:

Quote:
"Conflict is enabled by local, no local forces everyone to hisec, therefore all conflict is in highsec."


Literally not a single person has said this at all. The fact that you are a slavering simp and keep linking to disparate points has everything to do with your incapability of reading beyond the third grade level and nothing to do with the arguments being made.

Let me break it down for you.

Conflict is enabled by local: This is a fleet finding fleet function, the primary tool used by FC's and scouts to be aware of incursions into your space, or find the people you are fighting against. This has literally nothing to do with the second point at all except that both occur in the spaceship game eve online. The reason this is important in null and not wormhole space? Force projection and fleet size. I can reinforce an entire region in about two hours with supercaps and a large subcap fleet backing them up. Without local they would become virtually impossible to pin down if they had enough cyno alts spread around.

No local forces everyone to highsec: This is related almost entirely to isk generation, aka ratting/PI/what little industry actually takes place in null, aka actually "Living" in the space as opposed to just using it as a battleground that you return to when it is threatened. So instead of seeing a "Vibrant nullsec" full of people who live in it, you will see situations which if you were the expert on nullsec life that you seem to think you are you would know already exist. People who live almost entirely in highsec but only come back to nullsec when their infrastructure there is harmed.

And we get to the third point

Therefore all conflict is in highsec: no, because the two prior points are only linked in that they involve the spaceship video game eve online and local mechanics. What little population you see in nullsec already would simply move their daily activities to highsec and come back to null for fights. How do we know this would happen? Because it already does happen, especially in alliances with crappy hard to use space. Even in good space like ours roughly half to a quarter of our membership is engaged in risk free PVE in highsec.

If you tried to pop our towers we'd still come back to defend them, and we'd still keep our PVP ships in VFK.

It's not my fault you can't realize that there may actually be disparate issues with removing local, both quality of life wise and conflict wise.

Anything can be taken out of context when only half of it is quoted. It's actually sarcasm. Tongue in cheek. A play on words. The first two parts have been spoken by Darth and ohhh whats his face? Some one from earlier today. The conflict is actually referring to the nerd rage and temper tantrums that will ensue. There would also be more conflict on the market as well.
I am sure this will be butchered, misquoted, and taken completely out of contexts as well. That is what ignorant people do when they feel they could possibly be wrong. Like small children. Either way, I'm out guys. Good luck arguing amongst yourselves, playing children's card games or whatever you goons do during your free time.

Literally nothing you have said has had any merit beyond being a joke except when you admitted you didn't know how we use local in null.

There's no way to take that out of context or butcher it I'm afraid.

Do you have one single fact about the actual subject? Even one?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1031 - 2012-11-17 08:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Maybe you can just keep arguing against the arguments you wished I would make and I can keep making fun of you. This seems like a workable plan and goes along well with me being a goon.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1032 - 2012-11-17 08:51:33 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

Anything can be taken out of context when only half of it is quoted. It's actually sarcasm. Tongue in cheek. A play on words. The first two parts have been spoken by Darth and ohhh whats his face? Some one from earlier today. The conflict is actually referring to the nerd rage and temper tantrums that will ensue. There would also be more conflict on the market as well.
I am sure this will be butchered, misquoted, and taken completely out of contexts as well. That is what ignorant people do when they feel they could possibly be wrong. Like small children. Either way, I'm out guys. Good luck arguing amongst yourselves, playing children's card games or whatever you goons do during your free time.


Hey you know what would be crazy? If I liked a wikipedia article on ad hominem attacks and what it generally says about the person making them. Wouldn't that be just cheeky of me?
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1033 - 2012-11-17 08:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
You are fun, you should stay. I haven't talked at anyone this dumb since the fight with -A- in delve. Note use of the word at because i'm pretty sure you aren't grokking anything I'm saying beyond the fact that I'm being a meaniehead :(

EDIT: are you a furry? Because the last time I saw someone misuse that many argumentative fallacies it was a furry doing it, and they seem to do it a lot. Well that and yiffing.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1034 - 2012-11-17 08:54:51 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
You are fun, you should stay. I haven't talked at anyone this dumb since the fight with -A- in delve. Note use of the word at because i'm pretty sure you aren't grokking anything I'm saying beyond the fact that I'm being a meaniehead :(

I'd buy him a coffee IRL if I knew where he was.

I'd even use the local coffee shop as a neutral third party. Lol

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1035 - 2012-11-17 08:58:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

Anything can be taken out of context when only half of it is quoted. It's actually sarcasm. Tongue in cheek. A play on words. The first two parts have been spoken by Darth and ohhh whats his face? Some one from earlier today. The conflict is actually referring to the nerd rage and temper tantrums that will ensue. There would also be more conflict on the market as well.
I am sure this will be butchered, misquoted, and taken completely out of contexts as well. That is what ignorant people do when they feel they could possibly be wrong. Like small children. Either way, I'm out guys. Good luck arguing amongst yourselves, playing children's card games or whatever you goons do during your free time.


Lol

It can happen: you may reach the point where, in spite of expertly using all of your best tactics, you’re suddenly struck by the discomfiting notion that maybe your opponents, uh, have a point.

This doesn’t feel very good for any Privileged Person®. It’s highly uncomfortable for a start-off, the sensation you may be wrong about something. But even worse, it may mean you have to endure the humiliation of admitting that!!

But never fear, for all is not lost! You can still worm your way out of this one!

Simply say:

“It was all a social experiment!” "You took that out of context!" Or, my personal favourite, "You're too ignorant!" < this last one is especially useful when you have a block feature, like on Facebook - deliver it, give your opponent enough time to read it, then block them and they can't respond!!!!

This makes it okay, you see! Not only does it imply to your opponents that you’re really not the ignorant, obnoxious newb you might be beginning to realise you are, you successfully communicate to them that you are that insensitive, that arrogant and that much of a douchebag you would take issues they know more about than you that affect everyone in the game and treat them as nothing more than a theoretical discussion for your own detached amusement!

In this way you cover your arse whilst affirming your privilege!

Not to mention how many posts you've half-quoted yourself but completely missed out the important parts.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1036 - 2012-11-17 09:01:41 UTC
Remiel you post like a goon yet are a pubbie. My mind cannot contain the shock.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1037 - 2012-11-17 09:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

Anything can be taken out of context when only half of it is quoted. It's actually sarcasm. Tongue in cheek. A play on words. The first two parts have been spoken by Darth and ohhh whats his face? Some one from earlier today. The conflict is actually referring to the nerd rage and temper tantrums that will ensue. There would also be more conflict on the market as well.
I am sure this will be butchered, misquoted, and taken completely out of contexts as well. That is what ignorant people do when they feel they could possibly be wrong. Like small children. Either way, I'm out guys. Good luck arguing amongst yourselves, playing children's card games or whatever you goons do during your free time.


Lol

It can happen: you may reach the point where, in spite of expertly using all of your best tactics, you’re suddenly struck by the discomfiting notion that maybe your opponents, uh, have a point.

This doesn’t feel very good for any Privileged Person®. It’s highly uncomfortable for a start-off, the sensation you may be wrong about something. But even worse, it may mean you have to endure the humiliation of admitting that!!

But never fear, for all is not lost! You can still worm your way out of this one!

Simply say:

“It was all a social experiment!” "You took that out of context!" Or, my personal favourite, "You're too ignorant!" < this last one is especially useful when you have a block feature, like on Facebook - deliver it, give your opponent enough time to read it, then block them and they can't respond!!!!

This makes it okay, you see! Not only does it imply to your opponents that you’re really not the ignorant, obnoxious newb you might be beginning to realise you are, you successfully communicate to them that you are that insensitive, that arrogant and that much of a douchebag you would take issues they know more about than you that affect everyone in the game and treat them as nothing more than a theoretical discussion for your own detached amusement!

In this way you cover your arse whilst affirming your privilege!

Or ever having to make a single valid point on the actual subject matter.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1038 - 2012-11-17 09:03:00 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
You are fun, you should stay. I haven't talked at anyone this dumb since the fight with -A- in delve. Note use of the word at because i'm pretty sure you aren't grokking anything I'm saying beyond the fact that I'm being a meaniehead :(

EDIT: are you a furry? Because the last time I saw someone misuse that many argumentative fallacies it was a furry doing it, and they seem to do it a lot. Well that and yiffing.


Maybe he's on boosters??

He should have read those "Just Say No" ads on the CONCORD billboards.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1039 - 2012-11-17 09:04:05 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Remiel you post like a goon yet are a pubbie. My mind cannot contain the shock.


I'm still trying to find a niche in the game - there's so much on offer, I very nearly squee every day with how much I love this game. But I just can't find a "place" yet. Not to worry, I shall.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#1040 - 2012-11-17 09:04:51 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:

Anything can be taken out of context when only half of it is quoted. It's actually sarcasm. Tongue in cheek. A play on words. The first two parts have been spoken by Darth and ohhh whats his face? Some one from earlier today. The conflict is actually referring to the nerd rage and temper tantrums that will ensue. There would also be more conflict on the market as well.
I am sure this will be butchered, misquoted, and taken completely out of contexts as well. That is what ignorant people do when they feel they could possibly be wrong. Like small children. Either way, I'm out guys. Good luck arguing amongst yourselves, playing children's card games or whatever you goons do during your free time.


Hey you know what would be crazy? If I liked a wikipedia article on ad hominem attacks and what it generally says about the person making them. Wouldn't that be just cheeky of me?

Alright, I will stop with playing this back and forth games then If you can honestly refute in a logical and reasonable way that makes sense what I am about to point out is flawed with local.

1. You can not tell exactly in system where someone is cloaked or not unless you are on top of them when they jump through a gate.
2. Even when they are in system, you can still not pinpoint there locale with local and you need d-scans or have bubble traps on everything in system.
3. Let's say they are in your region and the FC has been trying to track based off local. Intel shows they are going one way but then the intel becomes screwy and they start jumping trough all sorts of systems. What then? You don't have anybody watching on gates.

Based on everything you told me earlier, local is useless and I can get the same information from d-scans with an added risk on a cloaky sneaking up on me enabling conflict.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _