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i am disappointed in null sec people. (TL:DR talking about local chat.) read first post.

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Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#981 - 2012-11-17 04:26:36 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Ok there are literally dozens of systems in each region.

Let's say we scan down a gang and they jump through a jump gate into a system with no local.

How will we ever find them?

It'd be like a blind man with a needle trying to pop balloons dropping from random positions in a 60 square meter room.

In short, you couldn't do it.

Exactly. Enemies shouldn't be forced to jump into your blob, you dirty blobber.

So you couldn't have players in every system running D-scans in covert op frigs?

They would never be fast enough to catch moving fleets.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#982 - 2012-11-17 04:33:29 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Ok there are literally dozens of systems in each region.

Let's say we scan down a gang and they jump through a jump gate into a system with no local.

How will we ever find them?

It'd be like a blind man with a needle trying to pop balloons dropping from random positions in a 60 square meter room.

In short, you couldn't do it.

Exactly. Enemies shouldn't be forced to jump into your blob, you dirty blobber.

So you couldn't have players in every system running D-scans in covert op frigs?


It's not hard to keep a fleet out of the grasps of a scanner/prober by doing rolling safes. In fact I've never ever been caught while doing rolling safes, or just regular safe bouncing. You'll never be on a single grid long enough for scan results to land on you.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#983 - 2012-11-17 04:38:08 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Ok there are literally dozens of systems in each region.

Let's say we scan down a gang and they jump through a jump gate into a system with no local.

How will we ever find them?

It'd be like a blind man with a needle trying to pop balloons dropping from random positions in a 60 square meter room.

In short, you couldn't do it.

Exactly. Enemies shouldn't be forced to jump into your blob, you dirty blobber.

So you couldn't have players in every system running D-scans in covert op frigs?

They would never be fast enough to catch moving fleets.

Maybe, maybe not. Have you tried? Do a few practice runs and test. Sorry, I have a die hard spirit for this. When we scout Whs and keep an eye on other systems, d-scans pick up the ships before they even enter the system fully. I think that's pretty fast. They can be ran about every 5 to 8 seconds and have 14 AU range with 360 degrees of coverage. I think I'm gonna run a few test myself in a lowsec system and see which is faster. I'm pretty sure local would be faster but it shouldn't be completely relied on. It is always best to have a backup plan.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#984 - 2012-11-17 04:39:58 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Ok there are literally dozens of systems in each region.

Let's say we scan down a gang and they jump through a jump gate into a system with no local.

How will we ever find them?

It'd be like a blind man with a needle trying to pop balloons dropping from random positions in a 60 square meter room.

In short, you couldn't do it.

Exactly. Enemies shouldn't be forced to jump into your blob, you dirty blobber.

So you couldn't have players in every system running D-scans in covert op frigs?


It's not hard to keep a fleet out of the grasps of a scanner/prober by doing rolling safes. In fact I've never ever been caught while doing rolling safes, or just regular safe bouncing. You'll never be on a single grid long enough for scan results to land on you.

True, I've done this a few times when I was out numbered without a cloaky. But, I need show when they did an omni-dscan so they know I was still in system. Then they'd just camp the exits.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#985 - 2012-11-17 04:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Ok there are literally dozens of systems in each region.

Let's say we scan down a gang and they jump through a jump gate into a system with no local.

How will we ever find them?

It'd be like a blind man with a needle trying to pop balloons dropping from random positions in a 60 square meter room.

In short, you couldn't do it.

Exactly. Enemies shouldn't be forced to jump into your blob, you dirty blobber.

So you couldn't have players in every system running D-scans in covert op frigs?

They would never be fast enough to catch moving fleets.

Maybe, maybe not. Have you tried? Do a few practice runs and test. Sorry, I have a die hard spirit for this. When we scout Whs and keep an eye on other systems, d-scans pick up the ships before they even enter the system fully. I think that's pretty fast. They can be ran about every 5 to 8 seconds and have 14 AU range with 360 degrees of coverage. I think I'm gonna run a few test myself in a lowsec system and see which is faster. I'm pretty sure local would be faster but it shouldn't be completely relied on. It is always best to have a backup plan.

Yes, I've tried. I've been a low-level skirmish-type FC on-and-off and believe me, we've tried. There's not always a person in local to give reports in our intel channels, so we try to spread people out to do this when possible.

Local drives conflict. You used to assert it prevented it.

Now you're asking us to try to get along without it and see how we might get by.

The answer has already been determined: We would kill less ships less often.

There's no getting around that.

Edit:

Local is always faster.

There's no need to experiment. People show up right away in local. You always have a delay with probes and scans.

Beyond that, even if you get them on scan, if they exit the system before you land from warping to them, now you have no idea where they went.

That is not how to drive conflict in null.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#986 - 2012-11-17 04:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth O'Hara
Darth Gustav wrote:

Yes, I've tried. I've been a low-level skirmish-type FC on-and-off and believe me, we've tried. There's not always a person in local to give reports in our intel channels, so we try to spread people out to do this when possible.

Local drives conflict. You used to assert it prevented it.

Now you're asking us to try to get along without it and see how we might get by.

The answer has already been determined: We would kill less ships less often.

There's no getting around that.

Edit:

Local is always faster.

There's no need to experiment. People show up right away in local. You always have a delay with probes and scans.

Beyond that, even if you get them on scan, if they exit the system before you land from warping to them, now you have no idea where they went.

That is not how to drive conflict in null.

I see your point. It does serve a purpose to catch up to the other guys a lot faster. But where does skill come in?
Edit: Is the enemy fleet using cynos as well or just jumping through gates?

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#987 - 2012-11-17 04:52:30 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
That is not how to drive conflict in null.

Highsec is the way ofthe future.

Join the light side (nullsec is dark, get it)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#988 - 2012-11-17 04:52:35 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
[quote=Kenneth O'Hara]
Yes, I've tried. I've been a low-level skirmish-type FC on-and-off and believe me, we've tried. There's not always a person in local to give reports in our intel channels, so we try to spread people out to do this when possible.

Local drives conflict. You used to assert it prevented it.

Now you're asking us to try to get along without it and see how we might get by.

The answer has already been determined: We would kill less ships less often.

There's no getting around that.

Edit:

Local is always faster.

There's no need to experiment. People show up right away in local. You always have a delay with probes and scans.

Beyond that, even if you get them on scan, if they exit the system before you land from warping to them, now you have no idea where they went.

That is not how to drive conflict in null.

I see your point. It does serve a purpose to catch up to the other guys a lot faster. But where does skill come in?

Good question.

The skill of the FC is in seeing a report in intel from one local, followed by a report in intel from another local, and determining just where the heck the enemy fleet is headed. Good FC's take their fleets through the right bridges and head off the enemy at the pass. Poor FC's, however, chase them around like dogs, likely failing to corner anything but people who were tired of chasing shadows an hour ago.

Without local for intel in null, all FC's would more or less be bad FC's except for those who happen to be very lucky, if such a thing exists.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#989 - 2012-11-17 05:02:15 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
The skill of the FC is in seeing a report in intel from one local, followed by a report in intel from another local, and determining just where the heck the enemy fleet is headed. Good FC's take their fleets through the right bridges and head off the enemy at the pass. Poor FC's, however, chase them around like dogs, likely failing to corner anything but people who were tired of chasing shadows an hour ago.

Without local for intel in null, all FC's would more or less be bad FC's except for those who happen to be very lucky, if such a thing exists.

So the blob is a bunch of skillness noobs maybe being led by a skilled FC?


Also, funny you mention dogs, I hear one of our FCs might actually be a dog.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#990 - 2012-11-17 05:03:46 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
[quote=Kenneth O'Hara]
Yes, I've tried. I've been a low-level skirmish-type FC on-and-off and believe me, we've tried. There's not always a person in local to give reports in our intel channels, so we try to spread people out to do this when possible.

Local drives conflict. You used to assert it prevented it.

Now you're asking us to try to get along without it and see how we might get by.

The answer has already been determined: We would kill less ships less often.

There's no getting around that.

Edit:

Local is always faster.

There's no need to experiment. People show up right away in local. You always have a delay with probes and scans.

Beyond that, even if you get them on scan, if they exit the system before you land from warping to them, now you have no idea where they went.

That is not how to drive conflict in null.

I see your point. It does serve a purpose to catch up to the other guys a lot faster. But where does skill come in?

Good question.

The skill of the FC is in seeing a report in intel from one local, followed by a report in intel from another local, and determining just where the heck the enemy fleet is headed. Good FC's take their fleets through the right bridges and head off the enemy at the pass. Poor FC's, however, chase them around like dogs, likely failing to corner anything but people who were tired of chasing shadows an hour ago.

Without local for intel in null, all FC's would more or less be bad FC's except for those who happen to be very lucky, if such a thing exists.

I do see how it can be faster and easier to get proper intel. But like I said, you could get the same info from proper d-scan use. Not using probes and not low d-scan ranges. Have people posted at each gate and have their scan ranges cross so no matter what comes into the system(s) they would have the intel instantly as soon as you pressed scan. You have them setup in every possible system in advance so that way you can determine which direction they are going to go to form a pre-emptive strike. If there is no local, you can't see them but they also can not see you. If you have people keeping up on scans and watching everything, then you'll stay on top of things. You already have people in those systems watching local, why not have them work instead of putting everything on the FC?

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#991 - 2012-11-17 05:06:08 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
The skill of the FC is in seeing a report in intel from one local, followed by a report in intel from another local, and determining just where the heck the enemy fleet is headed. Good FC's take their fleets through the right bridges and head off the enemy at the pass. Poor FC's, however, chase them around like dogs, likely failing to corner anything but people who were tired of chasing shadows an hour ago.

Without local for intel in null, all FC's would more or less be bad FC's except for those who happen to be very lucky, if such a thing exists.

So the blob is a bunch of skillness noobs maybe being led by a skilled FC?


Also, funny you mention dogs, I hear one of our FCs might actually be a dog.

Thanks.

I like to think I phrase my posts in such a way as to occasionally feature hidden gems.

Also yes.

The fleets lack any skill on an individual basis whatsoever. Further, even under a talented FC they are little more than a vaguely directed entropic entity at best. Gibbering disconnecting spamming entropy shooting Boat's pod out from under the Rattlesnake we lent him at worst.

I say this from experience. Cool

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#992 - 2012-11-17 05:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
[quote=Kenneth O'Hara]
Yes, I've tried. I've been a low-level skirmish-type FC on-and-off and believe me, we've tried. There's not always a person in local to give reports in our intel channels, so we try to spread people out to do this when possible.

Local drives conflict. You used to assert it prevented it.

Now you're asking us to try to get along without it and see how we might get by.

The answer has already been determined: We would kill less ships less often.

There's no getting around that.

Edit:

Local is always faster.

There's no need to experiment. People show up right away in local. You always have a delay with probes and scans.

Beyond that, even if you get them on scan, if they exit the system before you land from warping to them, now you have no idea where they went.

That is not how to drive conflict in null.

I see your point. It does serve a purpose to catch up to the other guys a lot faster. But where does skill come in?

Good question.

The skill of the FC is in seeing a report in intel from one local, followed by a report in intel from another local, and determining just where the heck the enemy fleet is headed. Good FC's take their fleets through the right bridges and head off the enemy at the pass. Poor FC's, however, chase them around like dogs, likely failing to corner anything but people who were tired of chasing shadows an hour ago.

Without local for intel in null, all FC's would more or less be bad FC's except for those who happen to be very lucky, if such a thing exists.

I do see how it can be faster and easier to get proper intel. But like I said, you could get the same info from proper d-scan use. Not using probes and not low d-scan ranges. Have people posted at each gate and have their scan ranges cross so no matter what comes into the system(s) they would have the intel instantly as soon as you pressed scan. You have them setup in every possible system in advance so that way you can determine which direction they are going to go to form a pre-emptive strike. If there is no local, you can't see them but they also can not see you. If you have people keeping up on scans and watching everything, then you'll stay on top of things. You already have people in those systems watching local, why not have them work instead of putting everything on the FC?

Why do you want to reduce ship kills in null?

With the current system you don't have to be "dedicated." You can do your own thing -and- provide -instant- intel.

With a no-local setup, everybody has to be on the same page or nothing works for anybody. Nobody gets kills if anybody messes up. And like I said, you still don't know where they went if they leave system without local. D-scan doesn't pick up cloaked ships.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#993 - 2012-11-17 05:20:02 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

Why do you want to reduce ship kills in null?

With the current system you don't have to be "dedicated." You can do your own thing -and- provide -instant- intel.

With a no-local setup, everybody has to be on the same page or nothing works for anybody. Nobody gets kills if anybody messes up. And like I said, you still don't know where they went if they leave system without local. D-scan doesn't pick up cloaked ships.

And then you completely missed my point. So let me get this straight, only a handful of goonswarm are elite and the rest are mindless drones. Why not teach the underlings to be productive. Of course everyone should be on the same page, you're in a fleet battle and engaging the enemy. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If one person messes up then it is his fleet commanders fault for not having his recruits properly trained. As for cloaks not showing up on d-scans, are you afraid of a challenge? This isn't a insult either. It just sounds like everyone is lazy in nullsec and don't want to work for kills.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#994 - 2012-11-17 05:26:34 UTC
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

Why do you want to reduce ship kills in null?

With the current system you don't have to be "dedicated." You can do your own thing -and- provide -instant- intel.

With a no-local setup, everybody has to be on the same page or nothing works for anybody. Nobody gets kills if anybody messes up. And like I said, you still don't know where they went if they leave system without local. D-scan doesn't pick up cloaked ships.

And then you completely missed my point. So let me get this straight, only a handful of goonswarm are elite and the rest are mindless drones. Why not teach the underlings to be productive. Of course everyone should be on the same page, you're in a fleet battle and engaging the enemy. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If one person messes up then it is his fleet commanders fault for not having his recruits properly trained. As for cloaks not showing up on d-scans, are you afraid of a challenge? This isn't a insult either. It just sounds like everyone is lazy in nullsec and don't want to work for kills.

A) Yes. I know this first-hand. There are leader bees, and there are drones. Believe me, it's better that way.

B) We try but sometimes you can't. Sometimes it's like trying to teach a hive full of bees the niceties of the art of tablesetting.

C) The weakest links are drones, just like in any other online group.

D) No, if one person messes up it's their own fault. That's called accountability.

E) It's got nothing to do with laziness and everything to do with getting results.

F) In closing, local keeps null-sec working. Taking it away would be a direct nerf to high-sec miners. I'm not even exaggerating.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#995 - 2012-11-17 05:52:45 UTC
A) Yes. I know this first-hand. There are leader bees, and there are drones. Believe me, it's better that way.
It's because of "elitist" BS like this is why no one wants to be in nullsec.

B) We try but sometimes you can't. Sometimes it's like trying to teach a hive full of bees the niceties of the art of tablesetting.
Then what is the purpose of having so many people if you have no way to train them properly? Protect assets? You can teach anybody anything, you just have to find a way to relate the material. If they are not capable of learning or whoever is training is incapable of training. Kick them from the corp, they are dead weight or best suited elsewhere in the corp doing other things and should not be near fleet combat.

C) The weakest links are drones, just like in any other online group.
The weakest link is a leader that is incapable of developing talent.

D) No, if one person messes up it's their own fault. That's called accountability.
Drones are mindless. How can something mindless be held accountable?

E) It's got nothing to do with laziness and everything to do with getting results.
You would get far better results with everyone on the same page working together. Speaking from experience as an actual fleet commander.

In conclusion, people not going into nullsec has nothing to do with game mechanics. It's this elitist crap that gets spewed all over everyone and the politics. Poly-Tics = Multiple blood suckers.
Not having local would not break nullsec, it would break all the so called "elitist".

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#996 - 2012-11-17 05:59:23 UTC
Honestly someone spoke up in fleet with an idea I can get behind (We were out hunting ratters in IRC space). Local itself is not the problem. I think that you should pop in local as you have loaded grid. Not while the grid is still loading as it currently does, giving just about anyone interested a 2-5 second (Depending on lag) reaction time that doesn't even account for alignment and warp.

I had initially thought to let the local delay last for the duration of a gate cloak, but that gives a bit too much advantage to a hunter who knows the space he's hitting.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#997 - 2012-11-17 05:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Kenneth O'Hara wrote:
A) Yes. I know this first-hand. There are leader bees, and there are drones. Believe me, it's better that way.
It's because of "elitist" BS like this is why no one wants to be in nullsec.

B) We try but sometimes you can't. Sometimes it's like trying to teach a hive full of bees the niceties of the art of tablesetting.
Then what is the purpose of having so many people if you have no way to train them properly? Protect assets? You can teach anybody anything, you just have to find a way to relate the material. If they are not capable of learning or whoever is training is incapable of training. Kick them from the corp, they are dead weight or best suited elsewhere in the corp doing other things and should not be near fleet combat.

C) The weakest links are drones, just like in any other online group.
The weakest link is a leader that is incapable of developing talent.

D) No, if one person messes up it's their own fault. That's called accountability.
Drones are mindless. How can something mindless be held accountable?

E) It's got nothing to do with laziness and everything to do with getting results.
You would get far better results with everyone on the same page working together. Speaking from experience as an actual fleet commander.

In conclusion, people not going into nullsec has nothing to do with game mechanics. It's this elitist crap that gets spewed all over everyone and the politics. Poly-Tics = Multiple blood suckers.
Not having local would not break nullsec, it would break all the so called "elitist".

I'm sorry you didn't agree with my replies. They're not political and it's not elitist. We let brand new unskilled players into fleets with no experience whatsoever. Goons give them free Rifters. My alliance replaces their Rifters for free, which is nearly the same thing. We try to train them, but not everybody is a scout or a leader. But everybody can read local.

It's too bad that the harsh realities of internet gamesmanship turn you off to null. It seemed for a moment there like you were catching on to the idea behind it. The maps are complex. Not everybody has the mind for the geometry of solving puzzles like "where are these guys going?"

Local drives conflict in null-sec. Taking it away would be a nerf to anybody involved in producing the ships we destroy.

Further, it would not work the same as wormholes because we have static gates, static belts, static stations. It's a totally different envoronment. You can't just say we're copping out without having been there and tried it out. Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#998 - 2012-11-17 06:12:01 UTC
So by that logic WH has the most amount of pvp targets?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#999 - 2012-11-17 06:12:44 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
So by that logic WH has the most amount of pvp targets?

Explain.

(This should be dandy.)

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1000 - 2012-11-17 06:13:32 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
So by that logic WH has the most amount of pvp targets?

Explain.

(This should be dandy.)

Heh heh....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?