Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Can't you at least come up with a new gag every once in a while OP. It's so hard to read ideas that are bad and boring.

Nerf highsec ganking.

I agree. (-:

argument for whs containing risk - for over 50% of the time that wormholes that have existed, PvP and conflict did not exist in them

i see

For someone who claims to have a really good grasp of mathematics, your explanations are a bit lacking. Why you've written some of the equations you have and some of the numbers you've used are completely unexplained.

So let's try this.

The data was taken over a four year period, during which wormholes existed for the latter two years, eight months (Apocrypha released March 10, 2009, data collection ended November 29, 2011: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=March+10%2C+2009+to+November+29th%2C+2011)
Let's assume it took 8 months for the wormholes to fill up, so we can say that most of the kills in wormhole space took place in the latter two years of data collection. I doubt it actually took this long, but using a shorter number would only make my case even stronger, so why not be conservative.
We are also assuming of course that the kill rate remained roughly uniform throughout the data collection period in null sec, and in wormhole space once the inhabitants were established.

Over that latter two year period, we'll assume nullsec killed exactly half of its total, and wormhole all of its total.
Null to WH kill ratio is = 7,061,988*0.5 / 377,786 = ~9.35

Based on the link you gave, the Q3 2010 population of W-space was 16846 characters, versus nullsec's 76999 characters.

So for the late 2009-2011 period, in nullsec there were 7,061,988 * 0.5 / 76,999 = ~46 kills per capita
In w-space there were 377,786 / 16846 = ~22 kills per capita

46/22 = ~2.1
Null sec, with local, is just over twice as dangerous as wormhole space, following this line of argument.

In your desire to massage numbers to a figure you find palatable, you casually stated that for the majority of w-space's existence, the 'no-local PvP savior' has been a conflict-free PvE haven with negligible PvP.
You certainly 'proved me' alright.

As for the rest of it , there were no facts provided, nor did they reflect a "real situation". Instead, you concocted an alternate reality where if all the current w-space inhabitants were effectively crammed in to only 397 w-space systems in order to account for "nullsec's higher density" and much higher kills per capita (which should be the opposite, if delayed local worked like posting alts claim it does). Since no w-space pilot has ever been in such a scenario ever, that is the exact opposite of a 'real situation'. A real situation is something like this:

There are 3294 nullsec systems accessible to players, and 2499 wormhole systems.
Again, with the above totals, nullsec had 76999 characters in Q3 2010 whereas W-space had 16846 characters.

(76999 characters / 3294 systems)*(45.8577 kills per character) = 1,072 kills per system in nullsec
(alternatively (7061988*0.5 kills) / 3294 systems = 1072 kills per system in nullsec)
(16846 characters / 2499 systems)*(22.4259 kills per character) = 151 kills per system in w-space
(alternatively 377786 kills / 2499 systems 151 kills per system in w-space)

Try again.

No, it doesn't. There's no possible way you can spin this to suit your argument. Where the **** is this factor of 7 coming from? You're saying wormholes are lower density therefore they're more dangerous? Not to mention local is just one of SEVERAL things that are different mechanically between wormhole space and nullsec, so you can't say that that's the root cause of there being more or less PVP in wormholes. EVERY indication says there's less PVP in wormholes both by totals, by per capita, and per system. Why do you still say there's more?

You're making absolutely no sense.


I'm now going to make the only argument that potentially works in your favor.
Nullsec has a population density of 76,999 players / 3294 systems = 23.3755 characters per system
W-space has a population density of 16,846 players / 2499 systems = 6.741 characters per system

Null has 23.3755 / 6.741 = 3.47 times the population density of wormhole space
Null has 46 / 22 = 2.1 times the kills per capita of wormhole space


The only thing you can say with these numbers is that wormhole space has more kills per capita for its population density than you would expect if all the mechanics were equal. One mechanic in this case that isn't the same is local, but your argument fails to show that local is the cause of this because it's one of a very large number of mechanics that separates wormhole space from nullsec, including but not limited to the sovereignty system, differences in PVE/PVP, logistics, wormhole inability to utilize clones, and mass limitations. If everything were equal between nullsec and wormhole space EXCEPT for local, then you'd have a case, but you don't, because all you've shown is a correlation (and a very weak one at that) with no causal link.

I have given the example with the highway. The factor of 7, is the chance of 2 players to meet in null divided by the chance of 2 players to meed in wh. I thought it was clear (your 1000/150). Let me make it simpler.

You are driving on a highway. 1st case, there are other 100 ppl on that highway, 2nd case there are 20 ppl on that highway. So the possibility to meet another ppl in 1st case is 5 times larger than 2nd case. Than means 5 time more chance to meet another car.

Now, let`s say that in 1st case there are 2 times more car loss overall than in 2nd case, for the above situation (the number we both agreed on in previous posts). This means, that for the total encounters in 1st case, there are twice as much car loss compared to the 2nd case. So far so good.

But keep in mind that they encounter 5 times more in the 1st case. This means that if you would have the same encounter chance for both cases, the 1st case would have 2/5 more car loss than 2nd case, or the 2nd case would have 5/2 more car loss than 1st case.

This means that there would be 2.5 more car loss in 2nd case if there would be the same density from the 1st case.(the real problem has different results due to different numbers, this is only an example). When you enter a null system there is a LOT more chance for you to find someone than in wh system and it means that there will be ship loss due to the fact that you encounter someone instead of empty space. This is logic. I could`ve explained it mathematically, but people accept new ideas more when there is common sense in it.

WH is 2nd case, NULL is 1st case. A over simplified problem. I don`t think I can be more explicit than that, sorry.

TL;DR The fact remains that NULL would have at least 4.2 more pvp in it if there would be no local. These numbers aren`t mine, are from CCP statistics, based on REAL events. I am sorry if your nullbear fear hinders you to see the reality.

I am sorry if you missed that.

But you have agreed with me for these 2 parts of the problem. From both your posts.
I have explained with real number, based on CCP statistics and known facts, furthermore I have detailed the problem so that a 7 year old could understand it. I haven`t made up the numbers, and the solving is rather easy.

The fact remains, based on math, NULL would have 4.2 more PVP if there would be no local.