EVE General Discussion

And the award for "most infrequently used moderator tool" goes to ...


Seems like the obvious solution in that narrow case is to edit the opening post, copy the topic subject to the first line of the post, then merge the topic. *shrug*

MDD

My biggest gripe with the behavior of forum moderators at the moment is that I wish they wouldn't use their ISD characters to make on-topic posts - would prefer them to keep their identity as a player and as a moderator clearly separated.

(obviously I am happy to acknowledge that this thread is an exception to the rule )

Hi Vera,

Can I ask you to qualify that sentiment please ?

Just to be transparent on the position from CCLs perspective again, we are encouraged by CCP to post on these forums in any subjects that we're basically interested in and knowledgeable about.
The only exception of course is that we're not allowed to touch topics that are related to our mains identity or organizations.

As I said to MDD in an earlier post; our job is to liaise from the community to CCP - that would be a difficult thing to do if we weren't a part of the community.

A personal observation is that at the time that CRC (the old moderator team) was at its highest regard in the community was when we were incredibly involved in it.
For example consider this post that was made after I changed my ISD character name.
Of course it's an entirely frivolous thing, but the inner meaning is that we were regarded so well that people noticed when they hadn't seen my former name for a while.

But please; this thread is here to discuss such things. What's the reason for this gripe ?

Hi again MDD,

As usual you make an interesting post, thank you!

It's EVE time here forgive me if I'm not being as salient as I could be. I'm just offering some observations at this point, but if required I'll posting something more comprehensive later (when it's not 6:30am).

Amazing as it sounds, based on recent experience, the Forum custodian part of our duty is intended to be the minimum, last resort duty. It hasn't worked liked that in practise but there is fair evidence for either camp.
However, If we, the forum custodian should have no opinion ? well, we couldn't do our job here.

(I'm using feedback to refer to any on-topic rule-abiding post)
The forums are intentionally multi-faceted, portioned and segregated(in the positive definition).
This is absolutely necessary because EVE isn't sharded, EVE attracts intelligent customers and those customers connect to us throughout the world. Intelligent customers offer varied and often belligerent feedback. No feedback is bad feedback.
The only way to make sense of it all is that if such feedback is channeled where it should be.
We cannot do that if we have no opinion on the feedback.

A moderator should have no good or bad opinion of a thread however, that's entirely different.
But! we don't allow bias, adverse or otherwise, it's an absolute no-no; in the sense of "I'll move the thread because I hate that guy/corp/etc'.

CCL are asked not to post in polarising subjects unless the post is a very specific one "Stop the personal insults" for example.
CCL are also asked to avoid polarising thread noughts where they can post an opinion that can be taken as official support for or against, unless it's a frivolous comment "I've love A but B comes with Gravy; However, please remember that trolling is forbidden, See the rules here..."

I'm not sure where you get the notion that CCP "don't have that option" though. CCP employees are encouraged to enjoy the game and contribute. They're also entitled to their opinions too although I daresay the same 'avoid the limelight' policy prevails.
However, I can assure you that CCP don't have a list that says 'this dev is this player'; indeed - how could said player ever hope to enjoy the game if they're forever getting communication from *anyone* saying "You're ccp; I hate X, why haven't you fixed it?"

I guess ultimately; it's a question of what is the worst evil?
Would you rather volunteer's who engage with the community and offer a bit of content, or forum robots who apply the rules obliquely and ignore context ?

You know I've been here for a long time, and I can say hand on heart, the second of those two evils is why there are so many complaints against other forums; the "you think this is bad but try saying something bad here XXX" type posts.

This place simply could not operate if we enforced robotic interpretation.

You know you can spot the troll thread writers because they're the main ones complaining about the moderation these days. It's also amusing that you seem to think the old forums when every second thread was some brain dead gibbon vomiting random crap is somehow something to be aspired to or that we should wish for the return of.

As for those avatar threads you do realise 'Shock horror people are having fun on the forums without paying attention to me must WHARGARBLE' does not make for a valid protest. If you dont like them then dont participate in them, it really is that simple.

No, its not that simple.
GD is the most commonly visited portion of the forum by far.
Some of us actually use the forum to quickly identify issues that have arisen in recent days.

Having multiple slots constantly filled with multiple Avatar threadnaught and 'Like and get Likes' is annoying to quite a few people. You wouldn't know that because the thread complaining about it hit 10-12 pages then got locked. At a minimum, these threads should be moved to another forum, like OOPE.

Its win-win**. The 15 or so people that constantly bump those threads can enjoy them, without the rest of us constantly having to see their threads on the front page of GD. These threads have lived here for over a year.

They clearly violate GD forum rules, as they must have content.
Avatar threads have little to no content, and Like and get Likes is completely EVE content free. Page after page of no content.
And further, the Avatar threads are multiples of the same zero content topic.

Any other subject (PLEX, devblogs, etc), multiples are locked and posters are redirected to the main thread.

But ISD's enjoy these threads, so they fail to enforce the rules.

Strict rule enforcement is fine, but selective enforcement based on personal preference is not.

**Except the small group of people who enjoy those threads will still complain, because they won't get the attention they crave on a less busy page in the forums. Also, the people in OOPE would complain because the threads are an eyesore. All the more reason to simply lock most of them and be done with it.

Why hello faceless and abusive sockpuppet, its almost as if you're afraid of the consequences of posting with your main. Please do so so you can recieve your well deserved ridicule.

Bart Starr
I understand your position but I think giving the moderation staff leeway to make judgement calls over strict all the rules all the time moderation makes for an overall better forum experience. However I will concede that it can appear as you described even if that isnt the intention of those doing it, hence the need for adequate oversight, which in this case I believe has been mentioned earlier in the thread.

Burrobot, your opinions are noted; however please refer to the OP in this thread; we're here to discuss moderation in general terms, not specifics.

Okay, so I probably have a different opinion to most people here, given I've seen things from both side of the fence.

Up until recently I was an EVE player, and a very active contributor to the EVE forums. I started playing in 2003, and immediately applied to be part of ISD CRC (Communications Relay Committee), which was the branch of ISD that was responsible for forum moderating in the early days of EVE. I served with ISD CRC for a number of years, along with a few people who are now working for CCP, in Community or otherwise. In ISD CRC, we used to follow the same ruleset that ISD CCL do today.

After a few years (somewhere during 2005 if I remember correctly), CRC was disbanded and CCP's Community team was founded. They became responsible for all forum moderation, but as the Community team grew and took on more responsibility in other parts such as taking care of fansites, doing promotional work and suchlike, forum moderation became minimal, and the rules were enforced in a far more relaxed manner. Some might say a too relaxed manner given what some people got away with.

So, after CCP Community took over moderation the old forums were shut down, and the new community forums we use now were set up and put into action. Recognizing the need for a more direct approach to moderating again, CCL was formed to make sure the forums stay clean. Please bear in mind that despite its pretty harsh and dark setting, EVE is an ESRB "Teen" rated game.

Lets look at the definition of a "Teen" rating from the ESRB :



While we all appreciate good humor and a little bad language is fine, what has been going on on these forums in the past has been far from teen rated, and far from acceptable.

While I agree personally that in some instances the moderation from the new CCL team has been a heavy handed, it has been justified and the vast majority of people who're complaining are people who have stepped out of line and who've been warned or temporarily banned for forum misconduct and are angry because they've been put in their place for crossing the line.

On the flip side of the coin as I said, moderation in some instances has been heavy handed in my personal opinion. The problem that we have here is that we're training an entirely new department of ISD. This kind of training is not something we can do in a closed environment. It needs to be done live, on the forums so that our moderators can learn how to react and deal with situations that arise.

Over time, things will stabilize and people will settle into their roles, but for now we're in a position where sometimes calls that are a little heavy handed be made. In the same respect, if people don't try to bend or break the rules then they have nothing to worry about when they come here to post because they won't do anything that invokes the requirement for moderation. My best advice to people is to think before they post, and make sure they're aware of the forum rules.

Everyone who uses these forums needs to refresh themselves with the Forum Rules. If you have any questions about them, then feel free to ask them in this thread and we'll reply and clarify them. However they're very straight forward and simply written, so they shouldn't be an issue.


One important thing that I will add :

Our ISD team are volunteers. They give up their time to assist CCP with their roles, whether they be CCL, STAR, ECAID, YARR or MERCURY. They are a cornerstone of our community relations, they do amazing work, and are a hugely valued asset to EVE and CCP.

I'm always in touch with our ISD volunteers, and People will learn to treat them with the same respect that they treat CCP employees. Those who don't, and persist with making personal attacks and threats, as well as berating and insulting them will be dealt with swiftly, and severely. I personally will have zero tolerance for people disrespecting our volunteers, and likewise I will have zero tolerance for EVE players disrespecting eachother and blatantly breaking the forum rules.

Personally, I have a very dark sense of humor, and I love nothing more than hearing stories of people getting their stuff blown up, or horrendous thieving, scamming and scheming shenanigans in EVE so long as they're within the game's rules.

I love the banter and fun that goes on here on the forums, and it makes EVE's community so much more awesome, but the rules are there for a reason, and while we want everyone to have fun and enjoy interacting with eachother, it needs to be done in a controlled and civil manner.

I shouldn't post here because i know i'll regret it after time but i will anyway :D,

The actual system isn't much of a "real life like" friendly system, I mean, when and if you talk to someone you know who to respect or who not, the actual system seems to reward "noobs" big mouths, who search revenge from their real life issues on here game and forum, but not beeing able to talk to them like they deserve isn't such a great idea. This applies to me as well I might be seen as an idiot by some, sometime, but allowing them to reply to me as they wish shows real facts if im acting like an idiot, ad i'll maybe understand where i'm wrong, but beeeing noob, and blind about it, and actually hide behind a "noob" protector system, hmm, makes people who have valid points to quit and reward the noob bad instead of the right one, cause of these rules. Sometime strong words are needed not bans we all commite errors sometime.

I've no prob to show who I am in real life, why not allow real life stuff to be implemented? Menace or "show me who you are" (not in bad way just more real life friendly), this will shows who real cowards, big mouths or w/e , are. This might solve many issues players have and adjust by its self after time.

So my point is, it's time to revise some game and forum rules about what we 're allowed to type.