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Moderation discussion thread

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Author
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#241 - 2012-11-09 19:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Expending Doom wrote:
Do not make personal attacks on ISD members - CCP Falcon


In my opinion, actions where the entirety of the contents of a post is deleted should result in the post *itself* being deleted. Leaving stubs like this around simply clutters the thread, and invites discussion of the moderation action within the thread. The correct procedure (again, IMHO) would be:

  1. Temporarily lock the thread.
  2. Copy the unedited post's contents to an email body.
  3. Address the email to the poster
  4. Add explanation about why the post was deleted.
  5. Send email.
  6. Delete original post.
  7. Scan subsequent posts for copies of the deleted post (or fragments).
  8. Delete copies / fragments. If this results in an empty post, then repeat steps 2-6.
  9. Remove temporary lock.


MDD
CCP Falcon
#242 - 2012-11-09 19:27:30 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Expending Doom wrote:
Do not make personal attacks on ISD members - CCP Falcon


In my opinion, actions where the entirety of the contents of a post is deleted should result in the post *itself* being deleted. Leaving stubs like this around simply clutters the thread, and invites discussion of the moderation action within the thread. The correct procedure (again, IMHO) would be:

  1. Temporarily lock the thread.
  2. Copy the unedited post's contents to an email body.
  3. Address the email to the poster
  4. Add explanation about why the post was deleted.
  5. Send email.
  6. Delete original post.
  7. Scan subsequent posts for copies of the deleted post (or fragments).
  8. Delete copies / fragments. If this results in an empty post, then repeat steps 2-6.
  9. Remove temporary lock.


MDD


Even if the posts are completely deleted and not visible to players, they remain visible to us in a collapsed form, greyed out with a "Deleted" tag, and the undelete option.

We can also see the full edit history for a post since its creation and have the ability to add reasons for moderation to a post.

We leave messages like that in posts that we remove because if we don't, we get a lot of questions that boil down to "Why did you delete my post? Where did my post go?"

We view it as common courtesy that if we remove a post, then we'll leave a message, unless the post constitutes spam, then we just remove it.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#243 - 2012-11-09 19:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
CCP Falcon wrote:
Even if the posts are completely deleted and not visible to players, they remain visible to us in a collapsed form, greyed out with a "Deleted" tag, and the undelete option.

WTB that option (without the "undelete" command of course). Check that -- WTB forum setting "Hide deleted posts completely" that completely hides them.


CCP Falcon wrote:
We leave messages like that in posts that we remove because if we don't, we get a lot of questions that boil down to "Why did you delete my post? Where did my post go?"
I understand that, which is why I said to Eve mail the character about the post. And just to reinforce: this is only for completely deleted posts; procedure for moderator-altered posts is unchanged.

CCP Falcon wrote:
We view it as common courtesy that if we remove a post, then we'll leave a message, unless the post constitutes spam, then we just remove it.
When you leave the "we deleted this post" contents it is essentially spam to the rest of us. If you get "why did you delete my post?" questions with my procedure (where there is an Eve mail sent), then the proper response would be "Read your Eve mail, dumbass." Although you *might* want to leave off the last word and simply think it.
Twisted

MDD
CCP Falcon
#244 - 2012-11-09 20:55:02 UTC
We generally delete more posts than we moderate.

If we delete a post that's been quoted 40 times, then we have to delete all the others and evemail all the other characters if that's our protocol.

Right now, we pull everything and leave a message in the original post that was quoted. Far more simple.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#245 - 2012-11-09 23:25:54 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
While I can appreciate you're trying to iron out differences, this isn't the place for discussion of bans and warnings.

The rules are set in stone regarding this, so please don't discuss them any further. Smile

Quote:
10. Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum.

Such matters shall remain private between the CCP and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread, please file a petition.


This kind of discussion only leads to ranting and raving.

For the record, LCO if you did petition, then you went about it the correct way and we thank you for doing so. A lot of people don't, and end up getting themselves into further trouble for ban evasion.Smile

Lets keep discussion of bans and warnings off the forums please, they're a private and confidential issue between CCP and the player in question.




That's the entire point: I didn't discuss the ban as such, didn't really mind, accepted it and also communicated that to CCP Guard - hence I didn't mention the ISDs name or went into detail on the thread or posts involved. That's as unpersonal as things can possibly get.

I wasn't discussing the ban at all, but was making you aware of possible exploits allowing ISD members to achieve unauthorized bans by abusing forum mechanics.

So what actually happened was that I was banned for 'trolling' by an obvious Troll that managed to sneak into your volunteer team.

Hoping for raised awareness for trolls within your ranks.

Best Regards,

LCO
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#246 - 2012-11-10 00:30:49 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I received an email that said "your post below was removed for bypassing the profanity filter."

There was no post in the email, and I never bypass the profanity filter.

And furthermore, I've looked back at my posts and there is no post corresponding to the date and time given in the email.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#247 - 2012-11-10 03:58:53 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:


I wasn't discussing the ban at all, but was making you aware of possible exploits allowing ISD members to achieve unauthorized bans by abusing forum mechanics.

So what actually happened was that I was banned for 'trolling' by an obvious Troll that managed to sneak into your volunteer team.



Hi,

Look, you need to understand something here, I thought I'd explained this already but as it's not come across I'll state it again in the clearest terms possible.

* ISD volunteers cannot Ban. Period. End of story. It's not a case of can but won't; it's a case of cannot.

* Posts deleted by ISD volunteers do not cause someone to get banned automatically.

* ISD volunteers cannot make CCP ban people.

We've told you that the volunteer moderation team is not responsible for this action, I've explained a number of times exactly why this is the case too. CCP Falcon has told you not to keep bringing this individual case up in public too.

Please take heed and discuss this via petition.


[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#248 - 2012-11-10 04:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I received an email that said "your post below was removed for bypassing the profanity filter."

There was no post in the email, and I never bypass the profanity filter.

And furthermore, I've looked back at my posts and there is no post corresponding to the date and time given in the email.


Hi James,

I suspect that would be because the post was deleted by the CCP employee who also sent the warning email.
I can say this with utmost confidence because ISD Volunteer's do not have access to your email address and are not permitted to discuss such matters via eve-mail.

I would like to refer you to CCP Falcons earlier post however; this thread is to discuss moderation at large; not to discuss a specific action taken against someone.

If you think the deletion and subsequent warning was made in error then the only option you have is to raise a petition.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#249 - 2012-11-11 02:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:


I wasn't discussing the ban at all, but was making you aware of possible exploits allowing ISD members to achieve unauthorized bans by abusing forum mechanics.

So what actually happened was that I was banned for 'trolling' by an obvious Troll that managed to sneak into your volunteer team.




* Posts deleted by ISD volunteers do not cause someone to get banned automatically.

* ISD volunteers cannot make CCP ban people.




ISD Suvetar wrote:
Just to clarify here;

ISD cannot and do not ban people or nominate people for banning; that is a CCP level decision.
I have no idea what happened in your situation, LCO - but it was not the moderator team that did it.

I know there are a few infractions that can merit an automatic ban without receiving a warning; using racist terms is one of those reasons however.



I checked the specific ISDs information and apparently, he's just a regular CCL, so a volunteer moderating team member.

I was banned without any warning for a post that didn't compromise any forum rules.

So if no infraction CCL members are able to give out results in an automatic ban and they can't make CCP ban people, my ban would have been impossible.

That leaves room for two options:

a) You're wrong.
b) Some CCP member randomly stepped accross my post at the very same time the CCL member did and coincidentally considered a perfectly legit post as ban-worthy.


Look - I apparently need to be very clear on this:

- I don't discuss the ban as such, hence I never mentioned the CCL member or even the thread involved.
- Banning people without any warning for posts that don't conflict with any forum rules is highly questionable and an issue of public interest, hence I don't restrict this to petitions or private messaging.
- If - as you obviously claim - some CCP member coincidentally stumbled accross my post at the very same time the CCL did and considered it worthy of an unwarned ban, there should be transparency on who issued it.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#250 - 2012-11-11 11:22:49 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
I checked the specific ISDs information and apparently, he's just a regular CCL, so a volunteer moderating team member.

I was banned without any warning for a post that didn't compromise any forum rules.

So if no infraction CCL members are able to give out results in an automatic ban and they can't make CCP ban people, my ban would have been impossible.

That leaves room for two options:

a) You're wrong.
b) Some CCP member randomly stepped accross my post at the very same time the CCL member did and coincidentally considered a perfectly legit post as ban-worthy.


Look - I apparently need to be very clear on this:

- I don't discuss the ban as such, hence I never mentioned the CCL member or even the thread involved.
- Banning people without any warning for posts that don't conflict with any forum rules is highly questionable and an issue of public interest, hence I don't restrict this to petitions or private messaging.
- If - as you obviously claim - some CCP member coincidentally stumbled accross my post at the very same time the CCL did and considered it worthy of an unwarned ban, there should be transparency on who issued it.
The magic word LCO.

Transparency.

I myself have returned after two weeks enforced abscence for reasons that I am still not clear about and where simple questions asked of CCP were never responded to.

After a terrible time failing to find those answers I have zero confidence in the demeaningly named "petition" process. It offers no hope to me as a customer.

You aren't allowed to discuss specifics here and the only place you are supposed to get assistance is through a "petition". That is barely transparent if that process is inadequate.

As someone with many, many years of experience in gaming ponds much bigger than this it is my opinion that there's a bad culture being created here. It's probably too risky to cite examples I have seen lately.

Basically I am at a point where the only place I will post on this forum will be this thread, as at least it is in the public's gaze.

It is simply too dangerous to post anywhere else on this forum if you want to be anything more than glib or banal.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#251 - 2012-11-11 14:22:01 UTC
LCO, if you wish to know the specifics of your ban and who issued it, because for some reason you did not receive proper notification through the system, please file a petition. If you feel there is some sort of "exploit" that allows CCL to issue bans (there isn't, but let's assume there was), you should also send a petition so that we can immediately investigate it.

That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#252 - 2012-11-11 20:31:00 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.
With respect I think you should take another look at LCO's last reply. His comments are made as hypothetical example - as we would all agree in this case the facts for LCO are not yet clear. Also, the final points made do not align with your response. Which in my opinion is swiftly approaching rudeness to the customer.

Generally speaking though it seems to me as curious when CCP are obviously aware of all of the facts and issues in a case they can't simply resend the original warnings/notifications as that seemed to be sufficient as "business as usual" in the first instance.

People are generally all talking about the same thing here and everyone is pretty much on the same page. Seems even more curious that customers need to raise a "petition" when it all could be resolved simply in a minute or two. I don't understand making a customer jump through hoops like this.
CCP Falcon
#253 - 2012-11-11 22:42:43 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.
With respect I think you should take another look at LCO's last reply. His comments are made as hypothetical example - as we would all agree in this case the facts for LCO are not yet clear. Also, the final points made do not align with your response. Which in my opinion is swiftly approaching rudeness to the customer.

Generally speaking though it seems to me as curious when CCP are obviously aware of all of the facts and issues in a case they can't simply resend the original warnings/notifications as that seemed to be sufficient as "business as usual" in the first instance.

People are generally all talking about the same thing here and everyone is pretty much on the same page. Seems even more curious that customers need to raise a "petition" when it all could be resolved simply in a minute or two. I don't understand making a customer jump through hoops like this.


The fact still stands that our policy has been the same for as long as EVE Online has been around :

We do not share information regarding any form of petition, customer service or account actions with third parties. Any discourse between CCP and a player in terms of dealing with warnings, bans, petitions or account management is private, and is between the player in question, and CCP.

That's why we ask people to file a petition, because we will not release information of this nature to the forums. It also forms part of our rules that players will respect this fact and treat correspondence between themselves and CCP as confidential.

In the end, it's been stated multiple times in this thread that if people have general comments and questions, or constructive criticism regarding moderation, they can post in this thread.

For specific problems with individual members of the ISD Volunteer Team or CCP Games, or for queries regarding specific warnings, bans or moderation actions, file a petition under the category "Other Issues" and the subcategory "Forums", and we'll investigate and give feedback.

If people genuinely have queries, and come to us in a calm and civil manner requesting further information then it's not a problem for us to investigate.

Smile



CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2012-11-11 22:58:14 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

I don't accept that.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#255 - 2012-11-12 09:53:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

I don't accept that.


Tough.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard

CCP Falcon
#256 - 2012-11-12 10:42:47 UTC
Okay, let me explain this very simply, one last time:

It's been stated multiple times in this thread that if people have general comments and questions, or constructive criticism regarding moderation, they can post in this thread.

This thread is NOT for the discussion of specific cases of moderation pertaining to individuals, or specfic members of ISD or CCP.

For specific problems with individual members of the ISD Volunteer Team or CCP Games, or for queries regarding specific warnings, bans or moderation actions, file a petition under the category "Other Issues" and the subcategory "Forums", and we'll investigate and give feedback.

If people genuinely have queries, and come to us in a calm and civil manner requesting further information then it's not a problem for us to investigate.

People have been given enough warning, and this thread has been left open specifically for people to post general queries and comments regarding moderation in a civil manner.

From here on, failure to follow this is going to result in the hammer coming out, and people losing their posting privileges, it really is as simple as that.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#257 - 2012-11-12 10:59:49 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
The fact still stands that our policy has been the same for as long as EVE Online has been around :

We do not share information regarding any form of petition, customer service or account actions with third parties. Any discourse between CCP and a player in terms of dealing with warnings, bans, petitions or account management is private, and is between the player in question, and CCP.

That's why we ask people to file a petition, because we will not release information of this nature to the forums. It also forms part of our rules that players will respect this fact and treat correspondence between themselves and CCP as confidential.

In the end, it's been stated multiple times in this thread that if people have general comments and questions, or constructive criticism regarding moderation, they can post in this thread.

For specific problems with individual members of the ISD Volunteer Team or CCP Games, or for queries regarding specific warnings, bans or moderation actions, file a petition under the category "Other Issues" and the subcategory "Forums", and we'll investigate and give feedback.

If people genuinely have queries, and come to us in a calm and civil manner requesting further information then it's not a problem for us to investigate.

Smile
With respect I believe you should read my post again.

Nowhere in my post do I suggest CCP engage in making public any information regarding forum ban on this forum or any other place.

I am questioning why it is being made so difficult for the customer when CCP could simply just send an email or EVE mail.

One would have to assume you have the detail right in front of you and could simply do this. It could be seen to appear that CCP are just choosing to make this customer jump through additional hoops. We're already discussing the matter in a general and non-detailed way. To effectively close the loop for customers when it is clear they obviously have concerns really doesn't seem to be much of a stretch for anyone here with the required information.

In my opinion I feel that this reply represents what I generally find that is wrong with much of with CCP's community engagement. Forum posts are seemingly not interpreted correctly, replies are given that do not seem completely in line with original posts. There seems to be an ongoing pattern of judgement issues.

It is a concern.

As for "petitions", the fact that no correspondence can be posted or linked to it is simply a process that has no transparency.
I am unsure of what the posted "Big smile" is meant to represent in the context of your post.
CCP Guard wrote:
Tough.
This reply from a CCP employee is simply just a shock!

If this is the general type of response to differences in viewpoints a customer could receive in public then one could only wonder at the nature of replies to that customer in the context of a "petition" may encounter.

I must confess, I am not left comforted by the posts by CCP I am reading in this thread today.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2012-11-12 11:00:24 UTC
This entire thread is a farce. There are posts deleted all the time which do not violate any rules and no reason whatsoever was given.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#259 - 2012-11-12 11:01:19 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

I don't accept that.


Tough.

And this attitude is itself unacceptable.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#260 - 2012-11-12 11:12:35 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

I don't accept that.


Tough.

And this attitude is itself unacceptable.


I'm sorry you feel that way. Eterne explained what's up and it's really not just a personal choice for each person whether to accept the rules or not.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard