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[Proposal] Fix Wardec Exploits

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None ofthe Above
#101 - 2012-11-09 02:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
@Hans Jagerblitzen
Your text is informative and well written.
But what I really read out of it is this:
CSM seems to be totally powerless and therefore has no reason to exist.
All you can do is talk to CCP. And CCP on the other hand just ignores it and use their resources on prettier suns and talking pirates.
The new Bounty-System is a neat feature but we can do without it and it will not work with the currently buggy War-Dec-System anyway. Please stop wasting your resources on neat little goodies and make it possible for over 10.000 people to join alliances with their corp, declare affordable wars and recruit members again.
The current allocation is not acceptable.

I am a programmer myself and I can't understand how this can be complicated to fix. It should not take more than a couple hours to think of a system that works better than the current one. I proved this in my thread below. There are many other ways to fix this too. Just select one and impliment it in a couple more hours. Should work by adjusting some functions. After the next DT it could be better. The people who designed the current (bad) system should still know their way arround in these mechanics.
This is NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

regards
Destriouth Hollow

Here my full text about the issue:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=170237&find=unread


I understand your frustation, but don't get the "CSM seems to be totally powerless and therefore has no reason to exist." Which really translates into "CSM can't get done what I want done right now, so what good is it?"

CSM is not and never will be all powerful at dictating priorities and policies to CCP.

That being said, I do see a tendency to give up when faced with a stubborn CCP. Lessons from Incarna apparently forgotten. Of course you do have to pick your battles, but when it's important -- CSM needs to come together with the player base to call attention to something that is not getting fixed in a timely fashion.

PS - The rest of the post I am largely in agreement with.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#102 - 2012-11-09 04:18:40 UTC
Seriously, this is getting beyond a joke now...

CCP please for the love of anything holy fix this mess!

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#103 - 2012-11-09 07:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
None ofthe Above wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
@Hans Jagerblitzen
Your text is informative and well written.
But what I really read out of it is this:
CSM seems to be totally powerless and therefore has no reason to exist.
All you can do is talk to CCP. And CCP on the other hand just ignores it and use their resources on prettier suns and talking pirates.
The new Bounty-System is a neat feature but we can do without it and it will not work with the currently buggy War-Dec-System anyway. Please stop wasting your resources on neat little goodies and make it possible for over 10.000 people to join alliances with their corp, declare affordable wars and recruit members again.
The current allocation is not acceptable.

I am a programmer myself and I can't understand how this can be complicated to fix. It should not take more than a couple hours to think of a system that works better than the current one. I proved this in my thread below. There are many other ways to fix this too. Just select one and impliment it in a couple more hours. Should work by adjusting some functions. After the next DT it could be better. The people who designed the current (bad) system should still know their way arround in these mechanics.
This is NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

regards
Destriouth Hollow

Here my full text about the issue:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=170237&find=unread


I understand your frustation, but don't get the "CSM seems to be totally powerless and therefore has no reason to exist." Which really translates into "CSM can't get done what I want done right now, so what good is it?"

CSM is not and never will be all powerful at dictating priorities and policies to CCP.

That being said, I do see a tendency to give up when faced with a stubborn CCP. Lessons from Incarna apparently forgotten. Of course you do have to pick your battles, but when it's important -- CSM needs to come together with the player base to call attention to something that is not getting fixed in a timely fashion.

PS - The rest of the post I am largely in agreement with.

It's definitely about picking your battles. When CCP went quiet on war dec improvements for weeks, CSM got concerned. I took action. When i say "confront" CCP Soniclover i mean that, i was ready to create a thread calling out War Decs as an abandoned feature. Fortunately we DID have a meeting and coming out of that i feel that such a step is no longer necessary.

Wars will never be everyone's ideas of perfect but SuperFriends plans to address a nice sized list of issues which is showing me real progress and commitment to making the system work. It's not as simple as "just fix it in a few hours" like a couple above posters seem to think it is. We're not dealing with spell checking lol, this is a complicated game mechanic which is currently and has always historically been prone to exploiting, and it has to not only be well thought out but also be properly balanced between the interests of defenders and attackers.

CCP not taking the time to think things through, on wars and other things, has caused enough problems. The reason they hot fixed FW ahead of schedule was not planning out how LP distribtion worked was causing violent economic distortion that was literally forcing people to unsubscribe due to high PLEX costs. Trust me, Noir. is "trapped" by Dec Shield; it's not really that serious. I'd rather encourage CCP to take the time and get it right.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#104 - 2012-11-09 11:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
Quote:
Wars will never be everyone ideas of perfect but SuperFriends plans to address a nice sized list of issues which is showing me real progress and commitment to making the system work. It's not as simple as "just fix it in a few hours" like a couple above posters seem to think it is. We're not dealing with spell checking lol, this is a complicated game mechanic which is currently and has always historically been prone to exploiting, and it has to not only be well thought out but also be properly balanced between the interests of defenders and attackers.


Pay my trip to Island, give me from 1 to 3 days to get to get to know the current game-system and where to change what and which language is used. After that annother day to talk to everybody about all the balancing-concerns to get it right for everybody (I think the system i thought of and mentioned earlier would work just fine though).
And annother day to implement the code.

Thats when I do it without any knowledge of the current code.
I would bet all of current belongings that I could fix it to most people's liking in far below a week.
I have almost no knowledge about graphics-designing but implenting complex theoretical systems is something I really enjoy (:
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2012-11-09 11:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Trust me, Noir. is "trapped" by Dec Shield; it's not really that serious. I'd rather encourage CCP to take the time and get it right.



So if this is what you really mean - we don't have to wonder.

Encourage ccp to take time developing new stuff is in our best interest, telling em NOT to fix ASAP hot used exploits in key gamemechanics of current AND upcoming addons is not.

May there a "nice sized list of issues which is showing me real progress" what you said - isnt THAT the problem again: Whole alliances are stucked in current gamemechanics exploits, players cant earn their plexes, corps cant join new alliances, ppl will unsub because of no progress ingame and in ccp's policys - and we shall wait for NEW development steps - fixing (maybe) old probs and creating new ones?

Yea you may have to pick your battles but the biggest issue with ccp, I guess the whole community agrees is

Brib Vogt wrote:

TO CCP:

Before you add new crap FIX the old stuff!!!!


So Alekseyev, I would respectfully suggest you may even lead that battle here and not maybe somewhere in future.
May (or may not) next major issues coming up then which your own entity cannot deal so well with then.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#106 - 2012-11-09 12:09:51 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Quote:
Wars will never be everyone ideas of perfect but SuperFriends plans to address a nice sized list of issues which is showing me real progress and commitment to making the system work. It's not as simple as "just fix it in a few hours" like a couple above posters seem to think it is. We're not dealing with spell checking lol, this is a complicated game mechanic which is currently and has always historically been prone to exploiting, and it has to not only be well thought out but also be properly balanced between the interests of defenders and attackers.


Pay my trip to Island, give me from 1 to 3 days to get to get to know the current game-system and where to change what and which language is used. After that annother day to talk to everybody about all the balancing-concerns to get it right for everybody (I think the system i thought of and mentioned earlier would work just fine though).
And annother day to implement the code.

Thats when I do it without any knowledge of the current code.
I would bet all of current belongings that I could fix it to most people's liking in far below a week.
I have almost no knowledge about graphics-designing but implenting complex theoretical systems is something I really enjoy (:

Since you can't spell "Iceland," I'll take that bet.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#107 - 2012-11-09 12:14:11 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Quote:
Wars will never be everyone ideas of perfect but SuperFriends plans to address a nice sized list of issues which is showing me real progress and commitment to making the system work. It's not as simple as "just fix it in a few hours" like a couple above posters seem to think it is. We're not dealing with spell checking lol, this is a complicated game mechanic which is currently and has always historically been prone to exploiting, and it has to not only be well thought out but also be properly balanced between the interests of defenders and attackers.


Pay my trip to Island, give me from 1 to 3 days to get to get to know the current game-system and where to change what and which language is used. After that annother day to talk to everybody about all the balancing-concerns to get it right for everybody (I think the system i thought of and mentioned earlier would work just fine though).
And annother day to implement the code.

Thats when I do it without any knowledge of the current code.
I would bet all of current belongings that I could fix it to most people's liking in far below a week.
I have almost no knowledge about graphics-designing but implenting complex theoretical systems is something I really enjoy (:


I wish I was as smart as you Sad

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#108 - 2012-11-09 12:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
If things were so simple I'd vote this dude for world president!!

Also Island is the proper spelling of iceland in at least a few countries...
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#109 - 2012-11-09 12:34:44 UTC
Nice to see the War Dec mechanics are seeing some CCP and CSM attention.

I are satisfied. /me happy face.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-11-09 12:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Since you can't spell "Iceland," I'll take that bet.



first ccp state in this threat

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I wish I was as smart as you Sad

????????????????
I cant get it, really wtf

7 weeks after posting an exploit here came csm and dev finally - to barrack a player who is more committed than other in that game?

What is that here - election campaign and local smack during drink time???

Here he posted his suggustions you "DEV" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2149824#post2149824
I like em more than your analysis anywhere...oh wait which?
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#111 - 2012-11-09 12:49:02 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Nice to see the War Dec mechanics are seeing some CCP and CSM attention.

I are satisfied. /me happy face.


I promise you Alexeyev is giving it proper attention and we're also making plans, stuff just doesn't happen on the forums all the timeBig smile

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#112 - 2012-11-09 13:28:06 UTC
Mutual war dec should have the bill split in 50/50

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#113 - 2012-11-09 13:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
I follow this channel --> I see CCP at the left side --> I think AWESOME! Finally someone from the most wanted crew in this forum. --> I read his post --->

My reaction!

Are you kiddin' me? WTF. I pay for your product sir and you come at me like this? If you would work in my company and you would write something so offensive in our Internet forum it would end up in harsh consequences for you.

Alekseyev Karrde is CSM and a player of EVE. I do not know if he gets payed for what he is doing. His comment makes me angry, but i can understand it. What you sir, CCP Punkturis, write here in this forum speaks for itself.

First you **** off people waiting to solve a problem within a product they buy from you. Then you tell us that a guy who can't change anything (GM: CCP is the ultimate authority) gives it the proper attention, rather then CCP is doing it. And at last you tell us you make plans.

WOW now i am so relieved. I love it when a plan comes together, as much as the next guy. Get on you arses and fix the damn problems. If I would react in my customer support like you do my company becomes sued.

Work on it dammit. DO NOT PLAN on working on it.


By the way, i tested your new user interface on the test server, i do not like it.
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2012-11-09 13:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
CCP Punkturis wrote:

I promise you Alexeyev is giving it proper attention and we're also making plans, stuff just doesn't happen on the forums all the timeBig smile

lol
in other words: You heard of it the first time...?
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#115 - 2012-11-09 14:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Brib Vogt wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde is CSM and a player of EVE. I do not know if he gets payed for what he is doing.

I do not. I don't even get to go on a plane. But troll tears *are* an excellent fringe benefit...

Also, they ARE working on it (edit, as in right now while you type at them and distract them with laughter). *read* before you *type*

I may not get paid at all but Punkturis doesn't get paid enough to make good code and show deference to such rude behaviour. Why anyone would white knight such an obvious and breathless troll against one of CCP's hardest working devs is beyond me.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#116 - 2012-11-09 14:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Quote:
... but Punkturis doesn't get paid enough to make good code and show deference to such rude behaviour. Why anyone would white knight such an obvious and breathless troll against one of CCP's hardest working devs is beyond me.


Sorry dude, but about what are you talking right now. I do not know CCP Punkturis. I do not know what he does and what he doesn't. And do you know why? Because no one talks to me in this forum.

But what CCP Punktaris writes is trollin on high level. At least it looks like it to me. I wait for a fix. I wait for an official to talk to me. Do you understand that i am really worried about his comment?

Someone gives a suggestion. From his point of view a problem can be repaired in a short time. If it can be repaired or not is not important, because it is his opinion! Instead of explaining the actual situation to him a CCP official writes offensive in the first post.

In my business, my customers would get all the money back, plus a bonus, if I would act like this. A one-liner is always seen as most offensive! If my daughter would answer a reply like this we had a discussion!


Quote:
Also, they ARE working on it (edit, as in right now while you type at them and distract them with laughter). *read* before you *type*


I do not know sir. From all previous posts it never appears to me that they are working on it. IT IS PLANNED to work on it. If they actual do why does no one of the officials write it.

An example from the view of my companies custom support:
The bug in the actual game mechanics is a bigger deal then it appears from the outside. A small group/a single programmer works on it, but the coding is more time intensive then we estimated and we will not be able to fix the obvious flaws before or within the retribution release. After this release we will be able to shift resources to help our community. Until then we reimburse all stuck accounts with free playtime/a ship/ implants/SP/ anything...

Big Apologies, CCP ICAREABOUTYOU


The most important step is the communication with the customers, even without reimbursement!!!
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#117 - 2012-11-09 15:27:00 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Quote:
... but Punkturis doesn't get paid enough to make good code and show deference to such rude behaviour. Why anyone would white knight such an obvious and breathless troll against one of CCP's hardest working devs is beyond me.


Sorry dude, but about what are you talking right now. I do not know CCP Punkturis. I do not know what he does and what he doesn't. And do you know why? Because no one talks to me in this forum.

But what CCP Punktaris writes is trollin on high level. At least it looks like it to me. I wait for a fix. I wait for an official to talk to me. Do you understand that i am really worried about his comment?

Someone gives a suggestion. From his point of view a problem can be repaired in a short time. If it can be repaired or not is not important, because it is his opinion! Instead of explaining the actual situation to him a CCP official writes offensive in the first post.

In my business, my customers would get all the money back, plus a bonus, if I would act like this. A one-liner is always seen as most offensive! If my daughter would answer a reply like this we had a discussion!

1. Maybe you should pay attention more to those official posts to so desperately crave? First of all, CCP Punkturis is a woman. That's a good place to start.

2. No, the last 2 pages of this thread are trolling on a high level. Punkturis made a little joke, and if you can't see why it's funny it's probably because the joke is on posters like you. Take your own advice and wait for a fix.

3. His opinion is objectively unrealistic and subjectively dumb. I already explained the actual situation, he just continued to make a fool of himself. Be thankful someone in CCP got some laughs out of it.

4. Punkturis isn't your daughter and you're not the boss. If you can't buy products from a company which employs highly skilled, creative people with a sense of humor willing to engage with even the most intransigent elements of their customer base then go play another game. CCP might miss the subscription, but the community will improve and become more attractive with the absence of players like you and Destriouth so I wager it'll balance out in the long run.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2012-11-09 15:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde is CSM and a player of EVE. I do not know if he gets payed for what he is doing.

I do not. I don't even get to go on a plane. But troll tears *are* an excellent fringe benefit...

Also, they ARE working on it (edit, as in right now while you type at them and distract them with laughter). *read* before you *type*

I may not get payed at all but Punkturis doesn't get paid enough to make good code and show deference to such rude behaviour. Why anyone would white knight such an obvious and breathless troll against one of CCP's hardest working devs is beyond me.


sry man, but from a player to you:
this reply is poor and turns upside down what happens here at least.
Dahc Harbinger
Quantum Star Conglomerate
#119 - 2012-11-09 16:07:32 UTC
A new capsuleer's perspective:

Been playing this game for under a week. Immersing myself in the forums as much as possible to assist with learning curve. Read every post in this thread, and while I don't completely understand the mechanics of the problem being a new pilot, it's apparent there is enough evidence to support it being a fairly serious issue.

Then I came across the very first CCP post in-thread and was very disappointed. If you have the time to follow a thread and then troll a customer who is obviously passionate about this particular situation and the game itself, regardless of how he expresses that passion, then maybe you could find the additional 30min to post a proper response on exactly what CCP is doing? I expect the game company and it's employees to take the high road in these situations, because when you resort to acting in a childish manner such as this I begin to lose confidence in said company.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Cheers.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#120 - 2012-11-09 16:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Alekseyev Karrde everything you write is very offensive. I tried to state the actual conditions.

1.) I do not care about a gender. If she is a woman she still writes poor comments on the wrong place.

2.) All posts here have their respective necessity. And all are welcome by any GM i contacted. And what do you mean by posters like me? From one EVE player and Alliance leader to maybe another: Do you think you are worth more then any other "grunt"? You, as CSM, should fight for us instead of being the defender of the poor CCP.

3.) Again you trollin and you are very offensive. He stated his opinion and you are going to make a fool of yourself by criticizing him in such a rude way. And i am not thankful for the laughs. CCP members are payed by his money too.

4.) Do you know what examples are made for? And about which compromise are you talking? CCP never gave me anything to choose from?

I talk for at least 160 Accounts alone in my alliance and i know some of the alliance leaders stuck in dec shield too which feel the same. And i do all the writing here, because i want that only one guy from my alliance is answering here.


I feel very offended and i hope you apologize for your arrogant behavior. You start to become pissed and it seems you are taking this very personal, instead of thinking this through in a way a selected representative of all eve players should do. I even start: If i hurt someones feeling by writing improper language i now apologize for it. But it doesn't change the fact, that i feel left alone.