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[Proposal] Fix Wardec Exploits

First post First post First post
Author
Mangala Solaris
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#61 - 2012-11-01 10:57:27 UTC
Supporting this also.

This whole thing is just a massive fiasco - especially the mutual war side of it which is seeing RvB get into mutual wars with 1 man nobodies we never even wanted to dec in the first place.

And massively increasing war costs too...
croakroach
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2012-11-01 15:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: croakroach
Supporting also.

With the new bounty hunting payouts, wardecs are going to be a strong mechanism for collecting bounties. This issue and the new system and pricing in general has driven out some of the good mercenary corps and alliances.

A simple fix, as probably proposed already, is to lock corporations at war from joining alliances so transfer cannot occur.

However the price of wars also needs to be addressed as many clients cannot afford the costs to obtain their goals, this is another aspect I see that is leading to the loss of many mercs in the market place.

Perhaps bounties will fix that? Especially POS bounties if ever implemented, but the price has to be right; for example, when it costs more to wardec than the cost of the POS, why bother, who would pay to have this removed? IMO bring back the old cost of wars; it worked fine.
Arduemont
The State of War.
#63 - 2012-11-01 15:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
I'm surprised CCP haven't commented on this yet.

It so obviously needs doing. Don't think I've seen anyone disagree yet.

Tobiaz wrote:
Locking a wardeccing corporation by making the war mutual is IMHO a very important feature. The 'biting-off-more-then-you-can-chew' risk provides crucial balance to the initiative advantage the aggressor has and THIS NEEDS TO STAY!

This is also why it should be possible to hire allies or join an alliance, even in a mutualized war, rewarding those few defending corporations that decide to fight back properly instead of hiding in newbie corporations and whining about it on the forums how wardecss are 'unfair'.

As an agressor, being locking into a mutual war with a corp that then goes into hibernation is simply the risk of agression. But I do think mutual wars should be 'confirmed' every month or so, to end wars with corporations that are completely dead. The test-server showed that there are still wars going on from 2005 of corps that are now long dead and forgotten.

The fixed need though (and it seems like an easy one) is to simple make the war follow the original defender, extending to any alliance it joins, but not remaining 'copied' there (except for a cool-down period) when the original defender leaves again.

Why isn't this fixed yet, CCP? Evil


Also, this ^^.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Bethesda
The Wooden Nest
#64 - 2012-11-02 14:05:03 UTC
Mangala Solaris wrote:
Supporting this also.

And massively increasing war costs too...



I shall laugh if you haven't unclicked auto pay....
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#65 - 2012-11-02 20:05:39 UTC
So a new variation of exploit based on dead corporations:

1.) Get a dead corporation into alliance
2.) Have all the wars set mutual in the alliance
3.) Boot dead corp from alliance
4.) Laugh maniacally as everyone is now trapped in mutual outgoing wars against a dead corporation

There is no escape, there is no way to reason or talk your way out of it. You are literally screwed forever and no one but GMs can help you. As of writing this, all 169 wars we're in are at war with a dead corporation, you cannot be set free, ever.
De'Veldrin
Adversity.
Hisec Miners
#66 - 2012-11-02 20:13:10 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
So a new variation of exploit based on dead corporations:

1.) Get a dead corporation into alliance
2.) Have all the wars set mutual in the alliance
3.) Boot dead corp from alliance
4.) Laugh maniacally as everyone is now trapped in mutual outgoing wars against a dead corporation

There is no escape, there is no way to reason or talk your way out of it. You are literally screwed forever and no one but GMs can help you. As of writing this, all 169 wars we're in are at war with a dead corporation, you cannot be set free, ever.


Now, if you want them to fix it, have every one of those 169 corporations/alliances submit a petition to the GM staff. If a flood of "**** you and your game mechanic for this ****" doesn't get their attention, nothing will.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#67 - 2012-11-02 20:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: The Zerg Overmind
Concord wrote:
Corporation you are at war with is joining an alliance
From: CONCORD
Sent: 2012.11.02 00:04

Barnim Libertines is joining Dec Shield alliance. Since you are at war with Barnim Libertines, in 24 hours you will also be at war with Dec Shield.

It seems that CCP did change wardec mechanics slightly recently.

Now when you're at war with a corporation, it'll send you a notification the moment they get accepted into an alliance. We've gotten multiple reports of this today, and I've never seen it before. Pretty sure this wasn't here a few days ago. This was one of our suggested fixes ^^

See, CCP does love us
Turelus
Utassi Security
#68 - 2012-11-03 04:51:44 UTC
When I first saw Dec Shield I assumed you were just another player trying to break EVE, Kudos for actually trying to fix this issue though +1 and a bump.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Ben Youssef Noban
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-11-03 13:03:24 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Zerg, it's obvious you and your fellows have put a lot of time and efforts into finding and using the broke-ass mechanics CCP has foisted on us (yet again) concerning War-Decs. What I want to know is how long it is going to take them to fix this c-f so that wars can actually be useful again?

Has there been ANY conversation between the CSM and CCP about this?

I talked to Veritas and Soundwave in Vegas this last weekend, and went over many of the major loopholes and the such. Soundwave gave me his business card and asked me to email him more information. I'm currently working on a more concise write up so I can mail it off to him, was planning to do so today.

As far as urgency, they were all of the mindset that it wasn't a pressing enough issue yet, and there weren't enough complaints or public outcry to warrant shifting gears to address the issues quicker. So at least in the short term I wouldn't expect anything to change, but we'll continue to push for fixes anyways.




Get Goonswarm trapped in Dec Shield mechanic and there will be some kind of a fix within three weeks.
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-11-03 16:10:14 UTC
btw another thread in "Features & Ideas Discussion": https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2131149#post2131149
Tinja Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-11-03 19:56:31 UTC
is CCP even going to acknowledge this at all?
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#72 - 2012-11-03 20:25:39 UTC
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
is CCP even going to acknowledge this at all?

They've acknowledged it privately, and are actively debating it internally. They did roll out one of the proposed fixes in the last few days, so someone is doing something, we think. I'll send
Nymeria Wolff
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-11-04 06:17:14 UTC
its sad that legitimate wars are being ruind because of this group tbh
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-11-04 09:15:16 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
is CCP even going to acknowledge this at all?

They've acknowledged it privately, and are actively debating it internally. They did roll out one of the proposed fixes in the last few days, so someone is doing something, we think. I'll send


It seems more, that they don't want to know anything about this, I assume now.
Customer service says thats everything working like intended and forum posts where devs are maybe watching were deleted ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2132121#post2132121)
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#75 - 2012-11-05 10:17:37 UTC
Exploit of the day:

Building off the previous bug of allowing dead corporations into alliance, apparently you can make identical copies of those corporations at the same time.

Step 1.) Make a corporation
Step 2.) Apply to join alliance
Step 3.) Alliance hits accept on your application
Step 4.) Disband the corporation
Step 5.) Reform the corporation with identical name, ticker, etc
Step 6.) Repeat steps 2-5 as many times as desired
Step 7.) Enjoy your clones

The test corp used was "Unstable Mitosis [XPLTR]" founded by "The Cloner"

http://mobileinfantry.free.fr/pics/would-you-like-to-know-more.jpg
Nymeria Wolff
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-11-07 21:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nymeria Wolff
after waiting 4 days for my petition to be answered (i know of others that were sent after mine but answered sooner) i get this


Hi

The tactics used to generate perpetual wars using the mutual war option are at this time considered a normal use of the game mechanics and not an exploit or harassment.

If you feel this is a matter that needs to be addressed, your best route is to either make a post in the Features and Ideas Discussion section of the EVE Online forums, or you can bring the matter up before the CSM in the Assembly Hall section. We realise this is not an ideal solution, however we are unfortunately not able to discuss ideas and suggestions for game improvement via the petitions system.

Best regards,




as i responded...


so disbanding my corp to get out of a war dec isnt against the rules??? thats not what ive heard ..... so to avoid a "working" mechanic is to break a rule?

I dont need the bs response as i know that they have admitted to war decs being broken and missused....


their response....



While players may say they are exploiting or abusing game mechanics, CCP is the ultimate authority on what consists of an exploit or abuse of game mechanics. At this time, the mutual war declaration mechanics are not broken and using them in this manner is not an exploit.

As this is the case, there is no further action we may take in this instance. You may leave the war through normal game mechanics by either offering surrender terms or, if your surrender is declined, you may unconditionally surrender by disbanding your corporation; this will end the war immediately, and afterwards you may re-form the corporation under the same name. Leaving a war by this method is fully permissible by the game mechanics and is not an exploit.

Best regards,



Doing a bit of research of my own it has been stated that it is ok to disban abd reform up with the same corp name etc etc.... this is some talk about it being done too much can result in hammers dropping.... So pretty much CCP has made it undesireable to war dec anyone which in turn means if you want to fight go to low and null sec or wait for some random corp to war dec you then just join dec shield for a day...

As the GM closed this petition i didnt get a chance to go into the fact that we cant join an alliance and are getting spammed by newb corps joining dec shield to catch other corps in this trap.... So please hurry up and catch goons in this trap so it can be considered an exploit...... Better yet, CCP put in a damn retract war option..... how hard is it?
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-11-08 06:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Nymeria Wolff wrote:

as i responded...


so disbanding my corp to get out of a war dec isnt against the rules??? thats not what ive heard ..... so to avoid a "working" mechanic is to break a rule?

I dont need the bs response as i know that they have admitted to war decs being broken and missused....


their response....



While players may say they are exploiting or abusing game mechanics, CCP is the ultimate authority on what consists of an exploit or abuse of game mechanics.


Fail! The customer is the "ultimate authority" @ccp

And more and more I begin to regret for paying my accounts in the light of such answers concerning obvious exploits of one of the most importat game mechanic and denying of all what about addon Inferno was annouced before.

So after 6 weeks of complaining of so much ppl in various forums here I would like to have an official statement from more then bot-gm's finally. This is the assembly hall of csm, sitting on their 0-sec asses instead poking ccp to give answers here.
I guess I wont pay for an upcoming bounty system, in which its to risky to declare a war, beause of getting trapped in such childish bugs and ccp-statements.
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#78 - 2012-11-08 08:01:58 UTC
I actually don't advise cancelling your accounts. CCP are working on the issue, and they do intend to stop me. They will fix wardecs "soon". They're just working hard to make sure the Retribution expansion goes off without any major bugs before they start tweaking interrelated game mechanics that could interact in unexpected ways. One step at a time, and it's likely that we're the next step.
Musiaba Schenoly
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-11-08 08:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
I actually don't advise cancelling your accounts. CCP are working on the issue, and they do intend to stop me. They will fix wardecs "soon". They're just working hard to make sure the Retribution expansion goes off without any major bugs before they start tweaking interrelated game mechanics that could interact in unexpected ways. One step at a time, and it's likely that we're the next step.


Maybe they work on this issue, maybe not - but they are unable to communicate with the community about such an important and obvious issue, ...again after Incarna Sad
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#80 - 2012-11-08 09:54:37 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
I actually don't advise cancelling your accounts. CCP are working on the issue, and they do intend to stop me. They will fix wardecs "soon". They're just working hard to make sure the Retribution expansion goes off without any major bugs before they start tweaking interrelated game mechanics that could interact in unexpected ways. One step at a time, and it's likely that we're the next step.
Oh cool, new exploits incoming \\Big smile//

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

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