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Crime & Punishment

 
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Dec Shield - End of the Second Era

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Reppyk
The Black Shell
#41 - 2012-09-25 22:10:38 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Looks like you managed to pick up some tears on the Suggestions forum.....

Waaaa Mum, make the game change to suit me.
"Unlimited" mutual wardecs will get patched, sooner or later.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#42 - 2012-09-26 02:37:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
I cannot help but applaud the way you make "creative" use of the highsec wardec mechanics. Keep it up!


^^That.^^

This makes meh haz a non-sadBlink

Ni.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#43 - 2012-09-26 09:10:14 UTC
I understand why you're doing this, and I support your efforts, even though we're likely to get trapped in a war with Dec Shield sooner rather than later.

I do lament for the state of empire pvp, however. After having been here for so long, it really bums me out to know that it will only get worse and worse as time goes on. It's ridiculous that CCP considers being stuck in a blanket war "risk" while affording the defenders full control over their own and the aggressors' movements.

I can swallow being stuck in a permanent war, but why exactly should the original targets be allowed to leave an alliance that sets the war mutual? This mechanic, along with corp-hopping, provides defenders with total immunity. If the defenders time their actions just right, then it's impossible to even have a time window in which they can be aggressed. Between hopping alliances and remaking corporations, it's impossible to even have a chance of shooting your targets, despite paying by the person (CCP's words, not mine) to do so.

Will this particular "feature" be addressed at some point in the future? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it will. The real question is, at the expense of what?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#44 - 2012-09-26 09:24:21 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I understand why you're doing this, and I support your efforts, even though we're likely to get trapped in a war with Dec Shield sooner rather than later.

I do lament for the state of empire pvp, however. After having been here for so long, it really bums me out to know that it will only get worse and worse as time goes on. It's ridiculous that CCP considers being stuck in a blanket war "risk" while affording the defenders full control over their own and the aggressors' movements.

I can swallow being stuck in a permanent war, but why exactly should the original targets be allowed to leave an alliance that sets the war mutual? This mechanic, along with corp-hopping, provides defenders with total immunity. If the defenders time their actions just right, then it's impossible to even have a time window in which they can be aggressed. Between hopping alliances and remaking corporations, it's impossible to even have a chance of shooting your targets, despite paying by the person (CCP's words, not mine) to do so.

Will this particular "feature" be addressed at some point in the future? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it will. The real question is, at the expense of what?

I can probably expedite your being trapped in a war with us if you want. And I totally sympathize, because it's absolutely not fair. And I find it hard to believe that this was the intended mechanic. It makes me sad that I left Dec Shield alone for multiple months under the assumption that wardecs had been fixed.

I've made this thread to illustrate the abuse and hopefully to speed change along:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1969901

It's truly sad to see how fast we can spread these wars. C0VEN was at war with Penumbra Institute (a 13 man corp that was harassing them), and C0VEN wanted to pursue them into highsec for vengeance. Now C0VEN is trapped in 7 wars, and that number will only escalate. Any corporations that drop out of C0VEN I believe will remain in permanent outgoing wardecs, and never be able to join an alliance again (corps with outgoing wars can't join alliances).


Burn Highsec Griefers
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#45 - 2012-09-26 10:32:49 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Any corporations that drop out of C0VEN I believe will remain in permanent outgoing wardecs, and never be able to join an alliance again (corps with outgoing wars can't join alliances).

What the ****, are you for real? Is that the way it actually works? I'm not into alliance stuff, so I don't have firsthand experience, but is this the way it works now?

How is this even a thing? :\

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#46 - 2012-09-26 10:39:18 UTC
Sounds like a challenge to me.
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#47 - 2012-09-26 10:42:13 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Any corporations that drop out of C0VEN I believe will remain in permanent outgoing wardecs, and never be able to join an alliance again (corps with outgoing wars can't join alliances).

What the ****, are you for real? Is that the way it actually works? I'm not into alliance stuff, so I don't have firsthand experience, but is this the way it works now?

How is this even a thing? :\

I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but I haven't explicitly tested it yet. The more ways I carve it, the more ways I find our victims are screwed.

Burn Highsec Griefers
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute
#48 - 2012-09-26 12:18:01 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:


It's truly sad to see how fast we can spread these wars. C0VEN was at war with Penumbra Institute (a 13 man corp that was harassing them), and C0VEN wanted to pursue them into highsec for vengeance. Now C0VEN is trapped in 7 wars, and that number will only escalate. Any corporations that drop out of C0VEN I believe will remain in permanent outgoing wardecs, and never be able to join an alliance again (corps with outgoing wars can't join alliances).




The C0VEN war dec was a hasty reaction they made when we war dec'd their renter alliance I-BRA. We immediately made the C0VEN war mutual so we could pick it up at a point in the future, however at the time we had actually moved out to the Esoteria and Feythabolis area to disrupt traffic and isk making of their blues and renters, and to pick off juicy targets as they presented themselves. This was greatly helped by a couple of friendly and disillusioned corps in I-BRA and ROL, and as you can see from the kills it gave us a good ability to change fittings and ships multiple times, despite having no station access. Even giving us a chance to switch once to an alpha tornado gang and one shot a nightmare as it sat just outside its POS shields in P9F-ZG.

We weren't even in high sec at the time of the war dec, and, as anyone who knows us can tell, we usually don't go to high sec very often. Theres no intention of us to evade their war dec by use of any mechanics, we're just busy and will pick at it over time and as we see fit. C0VEN has made no offer of settlement indicating that they wish to bring it to a close, so I assume they are happy to keep it running indefinitely as well. We will likely return to our disruptive ops around their 0.0 space very soon, maybe after that we'll do the same in high sec empire and see what juicy targets they float around there. At least in empire ROL won't be dropping solo supercaps on our cloaky nano gangs.
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2012-09-26 12:29:28 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Any corporations that drop out of C0VEN I believe will remain in permanent outgoing wardecs, and never be able to join an alliance again (corps with outgoing wars can't join alliances).

What the ****, are you for real? Is that the way it actually works? I'm not into alliance stuff, so I don't have firsthand experience, but is this the way it works now?

How is this even a thing? :\

I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but I haven't explicitly tested it yet. The more ways I carve it, the more ways I find our victims are screwed.

If this is really how it works i see no future for your business because there is no way this wont be taken as an exploit and fixed.
Pipa Porto
#50 - 2012-09-26 12:39:47 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
If this is really how it works i see no future for your business because there is no way this wont be taken as an exploit and fixed.


Could it be that that is his intention?

That's the reason DecShield 1.0 was formed, so it stands to reason...

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#51 - 2012-09-26 14:15:04 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
If this is really how it works i see no future for your business because there is no way this wont be taken as an exploit and fixed.


Could it be that that is his intention?

That's the reason DecShield 1.0 was formed, so it stands to reason...

I think all three of us might be operating under a too-optimistic assumption that CCP wants to preserve pvp in high-sec.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
flakeys
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-09-26 14:33:07 UTC
Blink Starting to like the current mechanics more and more .Good one bringing this to the attention once more Zerg .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Ample Norks
Large Handful Specialists
#53 - 2012-09-26 17:23:18 UTC
Wow you must have loads of kills.

Let me count them up....0+0+0+0+0+0+0 x 10 = 0

I would be impressed if you were achieving anything. Unfortunatley it seems unsuspecting corps are falling for this drivel and realising they themselves face not just one hostile but however many you have 'Trapped'

I wonder how many have closed because of this. Looking at the membership of the corps that have joined and left you since this new mechanic has been in place it would seem you are having the opposite effect to what you claim to be providing.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2012-09-26 18:08:02 UTC
Ample Norks wrote:
Wow you must have loads of kills.

Let me count them up....0+0+0+0+0+0+0 x 10 = 0

I would be impressed if you were achieving anything. Unfortunatley it seems unsuspecting corps are falling for this drivel and realising they themselves face not just one hostile but however many you have 'Trapped'

I wonder how many have closed because of this. Looking at the membership of the corps that have joined and left you since this new mechanic has been in place it would seem you are having the opposite effect to what you claim to be providing.


Coming from a NPC char with no kills of it's own. Your opinion in this matter means **** all.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Ample Norks
Large Handful Specialists
#55 - 2012-09-26 18:28:32 UTC
Check the facts and form your own opinion, if you have the ability.
Devil Dodger
Black-Watch Corporation
Malicious Mineral Hounds
#56 - 2012-09-26 19:19:42 UTC
What I really want to know is how can I join Dec Shield to pew pew?

Support my implant marketing campaign: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1903853#post1903853 Our customer list: http://poachers.mindflood.org/
Pipa Porto
#57 - 2012-09-26 22:19:14 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
If this is really how it works i see no future for your business because there is no way this wont be taken as an exploit and fixed.


Could it be that that is his intention?

That's the reason DecShield 1.0 was formed, so it stands to reason...

I think all three of us might be operating under a too-optimistic assumption that CCP wants to preserve pvp in high-sec.


If they don't and this forces them to show their hand earlier, that works too.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#58 - 2012-09-26 23:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
Karah Serrigan wrote:
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Any corporations that drop out of C0VEN I believe will remain in permanent outgoing wardecs, and never be able to join an alliance again (corps with outgoing wars can't join alliances).

What the ****, are you for real? Is that the way it actually works? I'm not into alliance stuff, so I don't have firsthand experience, but is this the way it works now?

How is this even a thing? :\

I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but I haven't explicitly tested it yet. The more ways I carve it, the more ways I find our victims are screwed.

If this is really how it works i see no future for your business because there is no way this wont be taken as an exploit and fixed.


I wouldn't throw the word "exploit" around too readily in this case. I, and I presume many others, would probably see it as a severe oversight, or lack of complete mapping of the possibilities on CCP's behalf.

I was at FF2012 this year, in the roundtable which the then-new (and now current) wardec mechanics were presented and hashed out. The room was full of people who engage(d) in wardecs and mechanics-bending as a normal course of playing eve, and I don't recall this possibility ever being mentioned at that time... I can only assume that it escaped us all because it was a lot of info to digest.

But here we are, and Dec Shield rides again. Many of you may recall the "forever war" that the Goons and others got trapped in shortly after these new mechanics were put in place, where the Goons dec'd (aggressed) a corp, and that corp made the war both mutual and open to allies, locking Goonswarm Fed. into a never-ceasing war with potentially unlimited numbers joining it against them, for free. CCP nipped that in the bud, and now we have ally contracts lasting only 2 weeks, they cost ISK, and mutual wars now allow no allies. I believe this situation to be no different from that, and hope CCP acts equally as quickly to address it.

/T
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#59 - 2012-09-27 00:02:42 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Many of you may recall the "forever war" that the Goons and others got trapped in shortly after these new mechanics were put in place, where the Goons dec'd (aggressed) a corp, and that corp made the war both mutual and open to allies, locking them into a never-ceasing war with potentially unlimited numbers joining it against them, for free. CCP nipped that in the bud, and now we have ally contracts lasting only 2 weeks, they cost ISK, and mutual wars now allow no allies. I believe this situation to be no different from that, and hope CCP acts equally as quickly to address it.

/T

Mutual wars ostensibly allow no allies... but the sad fact is that the mutual status of the war can be toggled at will without limitation: the war can be made mutual only as often as it needs to be to continue its free status, and allies can be piled on as desired at all other times.

Mutual status of a war needs to be only toggleable twice: once turned on, then off again, it must be impossible to re-mutual. Engaging mutual status in a war must drop all allies from the war, and perhaps even make it impossible from then on to accept any allies after it has been made non-mutual again.

I'm pretty sure most of us expected it to look something like that but were sorely disappointed when it came to light just how incomplete the nuances of the mechanics really were.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#60 - 2012-09-27 00:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Mutual wars ostensibly allow no allies... but the sad fact is that the mutual status of the war can be toggled at will without limitation: the war can be made mutual only as often as it needs to be to continue its free status, and allies can be piled on as desired at all other times.

Mutual status of a war needs to be only toggleable twice: once turned on, then off again, it must be impossible to re-mutual. Engaging mutual status in a war must drop all allies from the war, and perhaps even make it impossible from then on to accept any allies after it has been made non-mutual again.

I'm pretty sure most of us expected it to look something like that but were sorely disappointed when it came to light just how incomplete the nuances of the mechanics really were.


To spell it out:

CONTEXT: Defending Corporation in a war.

  1. IF war is made mutual

    1. Ally contracts ended;
    2. Ally contracts disallowed;
    3. Alliance join disallowed;

  2. ELSE

    1. Ally contracts allowed;
    2. Alliance join allowed;




CONTEXT: Defending Alliance in a war.

  1. IF war is made mutual

    1. Ally contracts ended;
    2. Corporation join disallowed;
    3. Leaving Corps get Non-Mutual 1-week copy; (see note)

  2. ELSE

    1. Ally contracts allowed;
    2. Corporation join allowed;
    3. Leaving Corps get Non-Mutual 1-week copy; (see note)




Note: Which upon leaving a Defending Alliance, these corps are free to set their copy of the war to mutual, but then fall under the first rule block governing Mutual Wars set by Defending Corporations.