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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1521 - 2012-09-19 17:03:30 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?


Let me reverse this question because it's frankly beneath Lian to even respond.

When is a long range Railgun Moa/Ferox your first choice?



Always,

Rails for life!

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1522 - 2012-09-19 17:04:15 UTC
PetersmithII wrote:
i have two question if ccp can answer do it please
1, if heavy missiles are so uber why is cerberus so ussles ?


Its a bad ship and has been for some time now.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1523 - 2012-09-19 17:06:23 UTC
Onictus wrote:

...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone.



Not true. The main issue with my armor cane is going to be... the 2 medium neuts.

I have 185 spare PG with one neut on currently (so -225 ish, not taking skills into account) means I will probably need to drop one or both neuts and fit something else, or smaller neuts, or... whatever.

Armor cane will be fine, just need to sort out new utility slots.

Where I am.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1524 - 2012-09-19 17:07:38 UTC
Onictus wrote:
...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone.


I just made a future armour cane with 425s, 1600 plate and dual neuts, it took a single ACR. I was surprised at how easy it was, maybe a 1600 Hurricane should at least have to drop to smaller guns.

The only difference is that the neuts are now small ones. But if you think that it should be able to fit the biggest guns, an oversize plate, MWD and dual med neuts, then you simply don't believe in fitting restrictions.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1525 - 2012-09-19 17:08:40 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Random McNally wrote:

So far there are 74 pages of people either for or against the changes with various levels of whine. You stated that this post is a forum for people to discuss the "idea" of making HM changes. Are the "Yea's" counted against the "Nay's" with the "Yea's" making the change a "go"?


It's not as simple as a vote. We take all reasoned arguments into account but in the end Eve's balance is CCP's responsibility and we can't shirk that responsibility.



Of course. However, one point that has been mentioned several times already without any response has been that this change to HMLs is attempting to rebalance two of the several ships that use them. If the whole point of rebalancing ships is so that all ships have a viable use, isn't it counterproductive to then make ships like the Caracal, Nighthawk and Cerberus again undesirable due to the changes made to their primary weapon system? Heavy Assault missiles are often not an option either due to poor tank (the caracal/cerberus hulled ships) or fitting consideration (can be an issue with any ship, especially since HAMs use more PG than HMLs).

If you want to rebalance the drake and tengu, rebalance the drake and tengu. Don't pack all the desired changes in the weapon system.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1526 - 2012-09-19 17:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:

Let's see you fit some medium artilleries to a Hurricane with or without the proposed changes without gimping the fit.


Hurricane
6x 650mm Artillery, 2x Neut
MWD, Disruptor, 2x LSE
3x Gyro, 2 TE, DC
3x CDFE

It's one of the old standard solo/small gang PVP fits. It works remarkably well. It might need some tweaking with the neuts with the changes, but ECM drones are plenty strong enough as far as counters to frigs go.

-Liang



Sadly that won't fit, with medium neuts anymore, it'll fit with a pair of HAM launchers in their place, with an RCUII I think it would wedge in, but with the hull changes its going to be about 8% over grid with a T2 fit.

Gypsio III wrote:
Onictus wrote:
...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone.


I just made a future armour cane with 425s, 1600 plate and dual neuts, it took a single ACR. I was surprised at how easy it was, maybe a 1600 Hurricane should at least have to drop to smaller guns.

The only difference is that the neuts are now small ones. But if you think that it should be able to fit the biggest guns, an oversize plate, MWD and dual med neuts, then you simply don't believe in fitting restrictions.


To be fair I usually used 220mm to facilitate the medium neuts (sans fitting mods or implants), but that is a judgement call.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1527 - 2012-09-19 17:08:53 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?


Let me reverse this question because it's frankly beneath Lian to even respond.

When is a long range Railgun Moa/Ferox your first choice?


Hell, i still have medium hybrid skill to 4. I trained medium Arty and AC first and i am now training the secondary gun skills to 5 :P

In other words. Never.

But the entire point i am trying to make is that there is only 1 or 2 viable dps ships in the caldari line and they are the one getting the nerf to the point of being unusable. I think that is wrong.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1528 - 2012-09-19 17:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
baltec1 wrote:
PetersmithII wrote:
i have two question if ccp can answer do it please
1, if heavy missiles are so uber why is cerberus so ussles ?


Its a bad ship and has been for some time now.



The problem with the Cerberus is why fly a 200m ISK drake?

And why care about a range bonus when you can already reach 80km?


Cerberus
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Assault Missile and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level


Drake
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance and 5% bonus kinetic damage of heavy missiles and assault missiles per level



Drake resistance bonus balances out with the fact that Cerberus has HALF (50%) of shield EHP of the drake.

You get more damage bonuses with the cerberus but... only 5 hardpoints versus 7, so your rate of fire bonus gets you from having 5 launchers... to 7 launchers, like a drake.

So on.

Why fly a 200m ISK Drake?

Where I am.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1529 - 2012-09-19 17:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Onictus wrote:
Sadly that won't fit, with medium neuts anymore, it'll fit with a pair of HAM launchers in their place, with an RCUII I think it would wedge in, but with the hull changes its going to be about 8% over grid with a T2 fit.


Fit an ACR, easy. In fact the more I play with Hurricane fits the sheer absurdity of its ease of fitting becomes clear. It's very easy to argue that more PG needs to come off.
Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1530 - 2012-09-19 17:12:35 UTC
The arguments in favor are strong, but some questions still remains for me:

Range turrets (Rails, Beams, Artillery) have multiple types of ammunition and changing that ammunition lets you trade damage for range as needed. Missiles, while having all four damage types available, do not get this luxury. T2 gives some options, but forcing players to train T2 just for any options at all does not seem good for the game.

- The assumption had always been that missiles were given such a good range because their are no "range vs damage" variants. With a general lowering or range and damage at the same time are you concerned that options for missiles will be too limiting?

- This change will give turrets better range and better damage in almost all cases? Have you considered this? What will be the value of ever using missiles?

- Missiles have travel time. This is actually a severe disadvantage in large fleets and skirmishes. Have you considered this as an inherent weakness for which missiles must have compensation?

I think some changes are needed but overall this seems too drastic. This is one change where slow, careful steps with monitoring is needed, not a massive bomb dropped once every 6 months. The problem here is just as much development cycle oriented as the change itself. None of us want to see an entire weapon system ruined and then not touched for another 5 years.

I applaud you for taking decisive steps in an attempt to solve a clear problem. Eve needs this because there are too many issues with core game play holding it back from becoming truly fun to play and expanding its user base. However in this case the remedy is drastic and probably worse then the illness -I suggest a less invasive approach.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1531 - 2012-09-19 17:13:03 UTC
Onictus wrote:

Sadly that won't fit, with medium neuts anymore, it'll fit with a pair of HAM launchers in their place, with an RCUII I think it would wedge in, but with the hull changes its going to be about 8% over grid with a T2 fit.

Gypsio III wrote:
Onictus wrote:
...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone.


I just made a future armour cane with 425s, 1600 plate and dual neuts, it took a single ACR. I was surprised at how easy it was, maybe a 1600 Hurricane should at least have to drop to smaller guns.

The only difference is that the neuts are now small ones. But if you think that it should be able to fit the biggest guns, an oversize plate, MWD and dual med neuts, then you simply don't believe in fitting restrictions.


To be fair I usually used 220mm to facilitate the medium neuts (sans fitting mods or implants), but that is a judgement call.


The biggest fear you should have when flying that ship are long range tackle interceptors (regular frigs die) and close range frigates. Small neuts are superior for capping out the close range frigs and the medium neuts aren't going to bother a long range tackle inty. It's not even a noticeable nerf to the fit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#1532 - 2012-09-19 17:13:09 UTC
Spanish Aquisition wrote:
Someone at CCP apparently had their poop pushed in by a drake recently

If you think the drake needs a DPS nerf you are bad at Eve and you should feel bad.



THIS =)

Now with 100% less Troll.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1533 - 2012-09-19 17:13:45 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?


Let me reverse this question because it's frankly beneath Lian to even respond.

When is a long range Railgun Moa/Ferox your first choice?


Hell, i still have medium hybrid skill to 4. I trained medium Arty and AC first and i am now training the secondary gun skills to 5 :P

In other words. Never.

But the entire point i am trying to make is that there is only 1 or 2 viable dps ships in the caldari line and they are the one getting the nerf to the point of being unusable. I think that is wrong.


So, you'd never fit any other long range platform that can reach 80km. So the Drake is the same now.

Thus it is balanced.

Where I am.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#1534 - 2012-09-19 17:13:56 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?


Let me reverse this question because it's frankly beneath Lian to even respond.

When is a long range Railgun Moa/Ferox your first choice?


Hell, i still have medium hybrid skill to 4. I trained medium Arty and AC first and i am now training the secondary gun skills to 5 :P

In other words. Never.

But the entire point i am trying to make is that there is only 1 or 2 viable dps ships in the caldari line and they are the one getting the nerf to the point of being unusable. I think that is wrong.


The other ships become much more viable once HML stops dominating the **** out of the entire LR cruiser weapon field.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
#1535 - 2012-09-19 17:14:40 UTC
More a comment in support of CCP Fozzie:

I think this is going to be one of those tough changes we're just going to have to swallow. Like the old nano speed nerf. Remember the days when vagas were THE ONLY Assault Cruiser worth flying? We're in the same situation with missile boats atm. I think we're going to need to wait until it hits Sisi before being able to judge the final impact.

On the other hand I welcome the changes this will have on fleet theory crafting. One of my hopes is that we'll see more cruiser sized fleets where appropriate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1536 - 2012-09-19 17:15:04 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Sadly that won't fit, with medium neuts anymore, it'll fit with a pair of HAM launchers in their place, with an RCUII I think it would wedge in, but with the hull changes its going to be about 8% over grid with a T2 fit.


Fit an ACR, easy. In fact the more I play with Hurricane fits the sheer absurdity of its ease of fitting becomes clear. It's very easy to argue that more PG needs to come off.


Won't hear me whining about it.

The fact that it was already the fastest hull in the class (pre -tier3) with dual weapon bonuses AND 6 free low slots always challenged the realm of believably, and the justification for that excursiveness was the Drake.

Well, that is getting knocked down a rung, so I'm not terribly worked up.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1537 - 2012-09-19 17:17:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


The biggest fear you should have when flying that ship are long range tackle interceptors (regular frigs die) and close range frigates. Small neuts are superior for capping out the close range frigs and the medium neuts aren't going to bother a long range tackle inty. It's not even a noticeable nerf to the fit.

-Liang


Agreed, I'm also stuck in a lecture looking up numbers and stats on my phone, so I haven't gotten to deep into exactly hwo it will work out. Big smile
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#1538 - 2012-09-19 17:17:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Random McNally wrote:

So far there are 74 pages of people either for or against the changes with various levels of whine. You stated that this post is a forum for people to discuss the "idea" of making HM changes. Are the "Yea's" counted against the "Nay's" with the "Yea's" making the change a "go"?


It's not as simple as a vote. We take all reasoned arguments into account but in the end Eve's balance is CCP's responsibility and we can't shirk that responsibility.



We know that's why so many of us are upset. CCP will screw up missiles and BCs just like so many other things in the pass. You will disreguard what we say. Just as in WIS, ISD, NEX(I don't have a problem with) that inventory crap and so many other things. We invest alot of time and money into the game you guys seem to be set on destroying.

Imagine you just spent hundreds of dollars and months studing something, and than the university decided that it's no longer a valid subject. Yeah that's what playing eve is like.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Kesthely
Mestana
#1539 - 2012-09-19 17:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesthely
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kesthely wrote:

The same is going to happen if they force the HML in this direction but then towards tank, with a +10% bonus to light missile damage and -20% penalty to Heavy missile, a Rapid light missile setup for ships that give bonuses to both weapon systems gets you within 15% of the new HML damage while freeing up a lot of power for a heavier tank. If the Tracking enhancers would give a 10-15% bonus to missile range i could get a Rapid light missile caracal over 100km have it at 36k effective hp, and only do less then 15% damage difference between a HML variant. Also the Explosion velocity and exlosion radius would probably give me against many targets more effective damage then the HML variant would.

Doing the HML change to promote HAM use is not going to work.


The Drake doesn't have that luxury because it doesn't have a bonus to AML. Furthermore, the Caracal getting decent performance out of a bonused weapon platform? Blasphemy. But to humor you: what's the pct DPS difference at 30km with 3 BCU HAMs?

-Liang


For your amusement the Ham would get 98% more damage then the rapid light at 30 km with your setup, 100% damage vs 200% range isn't a bad tradeoff on paper, but the RML has a better overal damage when factoring speed and sizes. Also the Effective hp on a RML caracal is 77% higher. If you try to go ranged HAM with Javelins, its dps suddenly drops to only 40% Higher compared to a similar RML setup while still only haveing half the range and half its effective hp

This would eventually result in the same Range + Effective HP vs Damage we've seen on the drake
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1540 - 2012-09-19 17:19:08 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
Bloutok wrote:


If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?


Let me reverse this question because it's frankly beneath Lian to even respond.

When is a long range Railgun Moa/Ferox your first choice?


Hell, i still have medium hybrid skill to 4. I trained medium Arty and AC first and i am now training the secondary gun skills to 5 :P

In other words. Never.

But the entire point i am trying to make is that there is only 1 or 2 viable dps ships in the caldari line and they are the one getting the nerf to the point of being unusable. I think that is wrong.


So, you'd never fit any other long range platform that can reach 80km. So the Drake is the same now.

Thus it is balanced.


If i'd never fit another 80 km range missile boat, it means it's dead.