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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1501 - 2012-09-19 16:53:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Soko99 wrote:





That's just wrong. Drake does not do BS damage, and it has the same tank as most other BC's. If you're referring to tengu's once again it's false since it also doesn't have BS tank. The reason it "tanks" so well is not because of the EHP but because of the speed tanking. It gets webbed down/neuted and it's screwed faster than a BC.





The drake does low end BS damge but its tank is firmly inside BS class.


How is that? without boosts etc? My navy scorp I can get to 120Kehp, my raven had close to 90. My drake has like 70-80.. Are the rest of the caldari BS that tanky or are the rest of the races BS that crap? My alts cane can get about 60k ehp on her cane? (sorry haven't flown the other BS's so can't compare)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1502 - 2012-09-19 16:53:56 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Quote:

250mm Railgun II with FACTION AMMO!:
DPS: 14
Alpha: 66
Optimal: 58 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -0.8
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with FACTION AMMO!:
DPS: 15
Alpha: 65
Optimal: 48 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.2
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with FACTION AMMO:
DPS: 12
Alpha: 174
Optimal: 48 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3


The Heavy missile DPS is not correct here You forget its 10 second flight time so its dps DAMAGE PER SECOND needs to be divided by its travel time. By your dps counter, the heavy missile should get its damage upgraded by 600%

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 2.3 (previously 2.9)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3


Wow, that is epicly bad math.. divide by 10.. Wtf? lol

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

The Bazzalisk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1503 - 2012-09-19 16:54:31 UTC
AlexHalstead wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:
I would like to point out that HM are only really used at long ranges like 80k in blobs because in small warfare, whatever is getting shot can usually just warp away. So let's talk about blobs.

I see no imbalance between heavy missiles and other weapons systems as they are.

Comparing artillery cannons and heavy missiles is stupid because:

The WHOLE POINT of artillery cannons is for alpha strikes with a slow RoF. When your ships are getting hit by big punches all in one go, it makes it hard for the logistics ships to react and land reps in time. Compare that to missiles which have flight time and low alpha and it's clear this is a stupid comparison. Now consider firewalling too. I now see no problem with HMLs.


At short range in small gangs, you get no damage bonus from being close in the missile range, so the dps will be easily outclassed by ACs, Pulse lasers, blasters.

I alway thought the guided missile was to be about Alpha and Accuracy over distance while the unguided missile was about rapid fire rate and DPS.
The alpha damage on HMLs is pretty poor.

The point I'm trying to make is that the only time HMLs are used at these excessive ranges are blob fights and HMLs are not OP in blob fights because of low alpha, firewalling, etc. 'Waaah but they have higher dps than medium artilleries and medium railguns' Medium railguns are broken anyway, so don't even bother comparing to them, and medium artilleries are meant for alpha strikes so they cause more difficulty for logistics because of less travel time and they have no firewalling. Medium artilleries needed a PG drop, is all, because they were nigh impossible to fit to any ship without gimping the rest of the fit. CCP has, very intelligently, noticed this and decided to make it even harder to fit medium guns to the Hurricane. *golf clap*
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1504 - 2012-09-19 16:54:37 UTC
Bloutok wrote:






Fine, nerf the range, not the damage.



The damage is easily arguably too high, HML they only do poor damage when compared to SHORT RANGE medium turrets,

...or pulse fitted Amarr battleships.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1505 - 2012-09-19 16:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloutok
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
I think it would be more like 35km and yes, i'd go for that.


Cool well I'd be raising holy hell over the complete removal of all long range weapon missile platforms. But no, you have to keep your HML damage for some odd reason. What, did you forget to train the 8 days for HAM 5?

-Liang


It is more complicated then that.

I believe that there are 3 factors. Speed, range and damage. If one of those 3 is to low, it does not matter if the other 2 are the best. If you reduce damage to be the same as long range medium guns, it wont matter what you do with the other 2 factors.

I ask again, do you think long range medium guns are used ? If no, then nerfing damage to long range guns power means the end of long range missiles.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1506 - 2012-09-19 16:55:06 UTC
Kesthely wrote:

The same is going to happen if they force the HML in this direction but then towards tank, with a +10% bonus to light missile damage and -20% penalty to Heavy missile, a Rapid light missile setup for ships that give bonuses to both weapon systems gets you within 15% of the new HML damage while freeing up a lot of power for a heavier tank. If the Tracking enhancers would give a 10-15% bonus to missile range i could get a Rapid light missile caracal over 100km have it at 36k effective hp, and only do less then 15% damage difference between a HML variant. Also the Explosion velocity and exlosion radius would probably give me against many targets more effective damage then the HML variant would.

Doing the HML change to promote HAM use is not going to work.


The Drake doesn't have that luxury because it doesn't have a bonus to AML. Furthermore, the Caracal getting decent performance out of a bonused weapon platform? Blasphemy. But to humor you: what's the pct DPS difference at 30km with 3 BCU HAMs?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1507 - 2012-09-19 16:55:53 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
I think it would be more like 35km and yes, i'd go for that.


Cool well I'd be raising holy hell over the complete removal of all long range weapon missile platforms. But no, you have to keep your HML damage for some odd reason. What, did you forget to train the 8 days for HAM 5?

-Liang


It is more complicated then that.

I believe that there are 3 factors. Speed, range and damage. If one of those 3 is to low, it does not matter if the other 2 are the best. If you reduce damage to be the same as long rage medium guns, it wont matter what you do with the other 2 factors.

I ask again, do you think long range medium guns are used ? If no, then nerfing damage to long range guns power means the end of long range missiles.


Long range medium guns aren't really used because HML so utterly and completely dominate that field. Seeing some variety on the field will be a welcome addition.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#1508 - 2012-09-19 16:56:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Random McNally wrote:

So far there are 74 pages of people either for or against the changes with various levels of whine. You stated that this post is a forum for people to discuss the "idea" of making HM changes. Are the "Yea's" counted against the "Nay's" with the "Yea's" making the change a "go"?


It's not as simple as a vote. We take all reasoned arguments into account but in the end Eve's balance is CCP's responsibility and we can't shirk that responsibility.



Of course. However, one point that has been mentioned several times already without any response has been that this change to HMLs is attempting to rebalance two of the several ships that use them. If the whole point of rebalancing ships is so that all ships have a viable use, isn't it counterproductive to then make ships like the Caracal, Nighthawk and Cerberus again undesirable due to the changes made to their primary weapon system? Heavy Assault missiles are often not an option either due to poor tank (the caracal/cerberus hulled ships) or fitting consideration (can be an issue with any ship, especially since HAMs use more PG than HMLs).

If you want to rebalance the drake and tengu, rebalance the drake and tengu. Don't pack all the desired changes in the weapon system.
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1509 - 2012-09-19 16:56:34 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Soko99 wrote:





That's just wrong. Drake does not do BS damage, and it has the same tank as most other BC's. If you're referring to tengu's once again it's false since it also doesn't have BS tank. The reason it "tanks" so well is not because of the EHP but because of the speed tanking. It gets webbed down/neuted and it's screwed faster than a BC.





The drake does low end BS damge but its tank is firmly inside BS class.


How is that? without boosts etc? My navy scorp I can get to 120Kehp, my raven had close to 90. My drake has like 70-80.. Are the rest of the caldari BS that tanky or are the rest of the races BS that crap? My alts cane can get about 60k ehp on her cane? (sorry haven't flown the other BS's so can't compare)


Funny I'm looking at a 90k eHP drake fit right now, fleet fits that don't use points easily match many battleships.
The Bazzalisk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1510 - 2012-09-19 16:56:45 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Bloutok wrote:






Fine, nerf the range, not the damage.



The damage is easily arguably too high, HML they only do poor damage when compared to SHORT RANGE medium turrets,

...or pulse fitted Amarr battleships.
They will do good damage compared to artilleries or railguns but like I said, that range is only useful in big fights at which point artilleries have their own strengths and railguns are useless anyway so ignore them.
The Bazzalisk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1511 - 2012-09-19 16:57:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
I think it would be more like 35km and yes, i'd go for that.


Cool well I'd be raising holy hell over the complete removal of all long range weapon missile platforms. But no, you have to keep your HML damage for some odd reason. What, did you forget to train the 8 days for HAM 5?

-Liang


It is more complicated then that.

I believe that there are 3 factors. Speed, range and damage. If one of those 3 is to low, it does not matter if the other 2 are the best. If you reduce damage to be the same as long rage medium guns, it wont matter what you do with the other 2 factors.

I ask again, do you think long range medium guns are used ? If no, then nerfing damage to long range guns power means the end of long range missiles.


Long range medium guns aren't really used because HML so utterly and completely dominate that field. Seeing some variety on the field will be a welcome addition.

-Liang
Let's see you fit some medium artilleries to a Hurricane with or without the proposed changes without gimping the fit.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1512 - 2012-09-19 16:58:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
The Bazzalisk wrote:
I would like to point out that Caldari are referred to as the kings of PvE by some people which causes some people to then choose Caldari for the Drake and Tengu. They then do their PvE for a while, get bored, want to do some PvP only to find that the only useful ship they can fly is the Drake. THAT'S why it gets used so often. Not because the Drake is some kind of mother-of-all godships. It's because the rest of the caldari ships are all useless for pvp.



They're called the kings of PVE... because of the heavy missiles DPS projection.

They're calling the Drake overpowered because of... the heavy missiles DPS projection.

The only missile system that is "great" are... heavy missiles.

What was the last KITE FIT artillery Cruiser you saw used in heavy volumes? (yes they're out there, but rare) The Muninn is a T2 hull basically DESIGNED for it 100%... and you almost never see it out there.

Why? Because they can't project damage even with max bonuses for sniping fits out that far as well as the drake.

The only reason it's the Drake and not a Caracal is... because a Drake has more launcher hardpoints.

You don't see Battleship sniping with missiles because... the missiles have crap sig radius for dps projection.

BUT... the drake can do it.

Blah blah. Heavy missiles project damage to well for their class. Personally, I think all the medium sized range weapons need a boost to effectiveness, but I'll take a nerf to heavy missiles until they come back around for that.

Where I am.

Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1513 - 2012-09-19 16:59:02 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
I think it would be more like 35km and yes, i'd go for that.


Cool well I'd be raising holy hell over the complete removal of all long range weapon missile platforms. But no, you have to keep your HML damage for some odd reason. What, did you forget to train the 8 days for HAM 5?

-Liang


It is more complicated then that.

I believe that there are 3 factors. Speed, range and damage. If one of those 3 is to low, it does not matter if the other 2 are the best. If you reduce damage to be the same as long rage medium guns, it wont matter what you do with the other 2 factors.

I ask again, do you think long range medium guns are used ? If no, then nerfing damage to long range guns power means the end of long range missiles.


Long range medium guns aren't really used because HML so utterly and completely dominate that field. Seeing some variety on the field will be a welcome addition.

-Liang


If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?
PetersmithII
Marvinovi pratele
The Bastion
#1514 - 2012-09-19 16:59:56 UTC
i have two question if ccp can answer do it please
1, if heavy missiles are so uber why is cerberus so ussles ?
2. do u plan remove nned to be on grid to missiles explode even after i warp off ...
now when they will be total ussles this is one of the bigest disadvanteges in game and nobody cares...
Model situation cane vs drake cane is 10% structure drake too drake pilot give comand warp to the sun he alighning shooting and dies becose his missiles never reach target they disapear ... explain me if u paln to remove this **** after this silly update :)
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1515 - 2012-09-19 17:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Bloutok wrote:


If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?


Let me reverse this question because it's frankly beneath Lian to even respond.

When is a long range Railgun Moa/Ferox your first choice?

Where I am.

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#1516 - 2012-09-19 17:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
I think it would be more like 35km and yes, i'd go for that.


Cool well I'd be raising holy hell over the complete removal of all long range weapon missile platforms. But no, you have to keep your HML damage for some odd reason. What, did you forget to train the 8 days for HAM 5?

-Liang


It is more complicated then that.

I believe that there are 3 factors. Speed, range and damage. If one of those 3 is to low, it does not matter if the other 2 are the best. If you reduce damage to be the same as long rage medium guns, it wont matter what you do with the other 2 factors.

I ask again, do you think long range medium guns are used ? If no, then nerfing damage to long range guns power means the end of long range missiles.


Long range medium guns aren't really used because HML so utterly and completely dominate that field. Seeing some variety on the field will be a welcome addition.

-Liang
Let's see you fit some medium artilleries to a Hurricane with or without the proposed changes without gimping the fit.



Did you miss the post were all medium artiliery are taking a 10% grid reduction.....you don't need as much power to run them. You'll still be able to fit two HAM launchers on a 650 arty cane, you are going to have issues jamming two med neuts on anything though.

...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1517 - 2012-09-19 17:01:50 UTC
Aprudena Gist wrote:

No its not. A drake does 350dps and has about a 80k tank.

A Battleship usually starts at about a 90k tank and goes to 160-180k tank. Its high on the terms of sub battleship sized tanks sure but not firmly inside.


My Drake has 75k EHP and has a spare midslot unused and two of the rigs not used for tank. Lower teir BS start out at 50k.
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#1518 - 2012-09-19 17:01:59 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Quote:

250mm Railgun II with FACTION AMMO!:
DPS: 14
Alpha: 66
Optimal: 58 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -0.8
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with FACTION AMMO!:
DPS: 15
Alpha: 65
Optimal: 48 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.2
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with FACTION AMMO:
DPS: 12
Alpha: 174
Optimal: 48 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3


The Heavy missile DPS is not correct here You forget its 10 second flight time so its dps DAMAGE PER SECOND needs to be divided by its travel time. By your dps counter, the heavy missile should get its damage upgraded by 600%

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 2.3 (previously 2.9)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3


wow....
I mean really wow.....
I just don't know what to say ......
That genuinely hurt my head a little bit....

....

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1519 - 2012-09-19 17:02:15 UTC
The Bazzalisk wrote:

Let's see you fit some medium artilleries to a Hurricane with or without the proposed changes without gimping the fit.


Hurricane
6x 650mm Artillery, 2x Neut
MWD, Disruptor, 2x LSE
3x Gyro, 2 TE, DC
3x CDFE

It's one of the old standard solo/small gang PVP fits. It works remarkably well. It might need some tweaking with the neuts with the changes, but ECM drones are plenty strong enough as far as counters to frigs go.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1520 - 2012-09-19 17:03:27 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?


I'll still use HML. HAMs just don't reach far enough to work with loki boosted point range.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.