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Goons "legalising" botting!!

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Aryndel Vyst
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2011-09-30 15:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aryndel Vyst
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto Mata o hima de,
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto Himitsu wo shiri tai,

You're wondering who I am, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
Machine or mannequin, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
With parts made in Japan, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
I am the modern man,

I've got a secret I've been hiding under my skin,
My heart is human, my blood is boiling, my brain IBM,
So if you see me acting strangely, don't be surprised,
I'm just a man who needed someone and somewhere to hide,
To keep me alive, just keep me alive,
Somewhere to hide to keep me alive,

I'm not a robot without emotions, I'm not what you see,
I've come to help you with your problems so we can be free,
I'm not a hero, I'm not a savior, forget what you know,
I'm just a man who's circumstances went beyond his control,
Beyond my control, We all need control,
I need control, We all need control,
I am the modern man, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
Who hides behind a mask, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
So no one else can see, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
My true identity,

Domo arigato, Mr, Roboto,
Domo, Domo,
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Domo, Domo,
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
(Thank you very much oh Mr. Roboto
For doing the jobs that nobody wants to)
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
(And thank you very much oh Mr. Roboto,
For helping me escape just when I needed to)
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
(Thank you thank you thank you)
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
(I wanna thank you)
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto,
(Please thank you)

The problem's plain to see,
Too much technology,
Machines to save our lives,
Machines de-humanize,

The time has come at last, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
To throw away this mask, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
Now everyone can see, (Secret secret, I've got a secret)
My true identity,

I'm Kilroy! Kilroy! Kilroy! Kilroy...
The Groundskeeper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#442 - 2011-09-30 15:35:45 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:
It's hard enough without people like the OP et al., making life more difficult.

OP says: "GSF supports botting by discouraging alliance members from reporting friendly bots"
Sreegs says: "A forum post is not enough."

Care to explain what sort of "pics" the OP should have provided to substantiate his claim?


Maybe he bothered to read the whole post, instead of just the misquoted bit in the OP which leaves out the parts where it says that ganking bots is well-justified and tells goons to report botters to alliance leadership? But that didn't help his argument.

See the whole post for yourself, here: http://www.endie.net/wordpress/?p=114 Yeah I'm fairly shameless.

It's also quite ironic that this thread came up while we were driving the OP's alliance out of their space and when the directorate of Goonswarm had spent almost two weeks setting up the largest anti-bot operation ever in Eve.
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#443 - 2011-09-30 15:36:11 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Zagam wrote:
The butthurt is strong in this thread.

CCP Sreegs is right on this one. All 22 pages of this craptastic thread are full of baseless accusations, internet posturing, and senseless ************. I don't see anything except people taking forum posts out of context, reading into words that aren't there, and crying because someone is better at the game than them. Almost all of the people pointing these accusations are either in small alliances that don't hold much sov, or forum alts (of people who have no cajones to post on their main).

tl;dr - this thread is pointless, and a waste of our time.


If you had bothered to read the OP, Mittens states to everyone in goons not to do CCPs work for them, either petitioning CCP to remove bots or taking the law into their own hands.

How many bots of the goons has FA bagged lately? F*** All probably.


Ok, I'll bite.

OP:
The Apostle wrote:
We all know it goes on. We all ***** and complain and moan about it. But THIS drew my ire.

GoonSwarm Federation Alliance Update – September 28th

[quote]Blue-On-Blue Violence

This is a sensitive – even a touchy – subject, so let me say that while he is, indeed, a keen ratter – a very keen ratter if we are honest – we have one rule in Goonswarm: we don’t **** other goons. Oh and we don’t play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either:

But if it were the case that he had been ratting just a little too exuberantly for peoples’ liking, or if he had offended them by consistently ignoring their conversation requests for a brief window of, say, seventeen or eighteen hours, for instance, then it would be goon-****** to report him or to kill him. This will land you and your corp in trouble as all we know is that someone shot blues.


Here is what this says. Mittens doesn't want goons throwing other goons under the bus. Taking the law into your own hands isn't the answer either. What isn't said is that concerns should be brought forward in the chain of command. As in talk to your CEO. Talk to someone of authority in the alliance. Don't just fly off the handle and shoot someone.

Its that simple. Its not condoning botting. Its not telling people to ignore botters. Its Mittens saying that throwing your own people under the bus is wrong, and more often than not, your accusations are misplaced. Throwing your own people under the bus is the fastest way to undermine trust in any group.

Headerman, you usually make decent posts, but in this case, you are being a lemming and taking stuff out of context, like much of the other 22 pages of this thread.
Shai 'Hulud
#444 - 2011-09-30 15:41:48 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
No. YOU just said that. I actually said the opposite.

Some of you however seem to feel, given your protestations of misconduct and insinuations that we're willfully turning a blind eye, that we're missing something.

Here's your way to do something about that... if you know something's going on instead of making a post on the internet enlighten me. Send me the piles of information you clearly have to be making this determination and help me out a bit. I see a lot of posturing and mudslinging but thus far I've seen 0 people actually doing anything more than posturing on a forum.

Either you have evidence to be making your statements or you don't. If you do, the way to get it dealt with if you're really serious and not just making posts for attention which I can't IMAGINE anyone doing on the internet, is to send it to me. As a matter of fact, go ahead and post, but then send your information to me. If you're not doing that I can only assume you're full of poo, because I can't fathom someone actually having a reason to know something's occurring and claiming they want to see an end to it so badly that they don't actually do the one thing that could get it resolved.

With all due respect, you seem a bit ignorant on the mechanics of detecting a bot. As players, our ability to gather hard evidence on these activities is very limited. We do not have access to the piles of information that you do. You are asking us for more than we can give you. If you are expecting us to provide you with all the data needed to confirm a given player account is indeed botting, then it is no surprise that the botting issue has not been addressed in a meaningful way. Most often, suspicion is all we have.

If botting is going to be stopped, it will not originate from the player base. More and more people are botting because there is a well founded perception that you are not doing anything to actively hunt down these rule breakers. And your attacks on our concerns in this thread do not help that perception. All you had to do was say "we will look into this." Sorry to have bothered you with suspicions of sanctioned rule breaking in your game Roll

Also, I'm amazed you seem to think that the player base has ANY confidence in you to enforce the rules of your game fairly. You sir, are the one that is full of poo.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
SmashTech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#445 - 2011-09-30 15:42:51 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Stuff

With all due respect, you seem a bit ignorant on the mechanics of detecting a bot.
....
Also, I'm amazed you seem to think that the player base has ANY confidence in you to enforce the rules of your game fairly. You sir, are the one that is full of poo.


:get out:
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#446 - 2011-09-30 15:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


It's not obvious. If you have information, share it rather than assuming everyone is as "educated" as you.

the tl;dr of my post is "educate yourself"

sign up for botting forums, look at the bots they use, learn.

edit: oh and detecting bots is always a question of likelihood - unless you have full access to someone's PC you will never be able to "prove" that they are running a bot. But I think that is obvious and you are just trolling...


Botting forums? Please link.

All you had to do was answer my question - "Ravens warp to the sun because it does ________ and this _________ is evidence of a bot automating __________."

Your "google it" answer is only a further demonstration that the people the most angry about bots are the ones who are the laziest about helping to solve the problem.

You had a prime opportunity to help a fellow player out with a statement that could have taken you a sentence or two, instead you gave me a meaningless response.

I'd still love to know about Ravens, suns, and shield recharging. I had no idea eve ships worked like the Destiny from Stargate Universe. And yes, I googled it already.

Edit: No, I'm not trolling, I'm asking a genuine question.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
BrianBadonde
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#447 - 2011-09-30 15:44:27 UTC
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#448 - 2011-09-30 15:44:54 UTC
For those too lazy to read the whole update: (bold is mine)

"Blue-On-Blue Violence

One of our illustrious members (let’s call him “Ibertizzle”) keeps losing Tengus to Russians and French people. This is a sensitive – even a touchy – subject, so let me say that while he is, indeed, a keen ratter – a very keen ratter if we are honest – we have one rule in Goonswarm: we don’t **** other goons. Oh and we don’t play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either: that’s Darius Johnson’s job. So two rules. And there’s the one about how nobody mentions the Mittani’s occasional chin tuft; and the localised No Digis or DBRBs rules. I could go on. Ok, on reflection we live in a hidebound and overly legislated nanny state. But we definitely don’t **** goons. Now I know that “Ibertizzle” has probably just been insulting people constantly in local and challenging them to 1 v 7s at the sun. Which is fine: honour demanded that he repeatedly die for his offences.

But if it were the case that he had been ratting just a little too exuberantly for peoples’ liking, or if he had offended them by consistently ignoring their conversation requests for a brief window of, say, seventeen or eighteen hours, for instance, then it would be goon-******* to report him or to kill him. This will land you and your corp in trouble as all we know is that someone shot blues. And by allowing one, well-justified blue-shooting case to go unpunished we basically open the portal to a hellish other-dimension of horror and chaos which ends with “hilariously” wrecked amok freighters on the VFK undock. Which sounds good but involves a lot of paperwork.

The correct approach is to speak to your CEO, who will submit form 240a together with the mandatory handling fee of 150 million ISK to the overworked diplomacy team, who will curse me loudly for putting that in there then go about finding a solution. Trust me: they have his number on speed-dial by now."
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2011-09-30 15:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
Mara Rinn wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Can someone point me to the part where anyone in Goons said not to report bots?


Right here, on the OP:

Quote:
we have one rule in Goonswarm: we don’t **** other goons. Oh and we don’t play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons


I thought that was pretty plain as day, no?

The bandwagoning from Shadow of xXDeathXx is pretty damn ironic.

just sayn'



The words you're not saying are the loudest ones.

Shame, Zagdul. I had great respect for Fatal Ascension and I wish I could have spent more time with you guys. For you to condone botting like this leaves an awful after taste on my memories.

Where have I condoned botting?

Don't twist my words. We regularly remove entire corporations who we've found violating the EULA.

Not to mention that we've got entire crews who focus on anti-bot techniques and are EXTREMELY effective.

http://www.evenews24.com/2011/09/14/the-men-who-stare-at-bots-meet-fatal-ascension-very-own-bot-hunting-brigade/

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
BrianBadonde
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#450 - 2011-09-30 15:52:05 UTC
mkint wrote:
Weren't you defending Goon botting a few days ago? I made the claim that it's logical to assume that MIttens finances his life style not from being a retired lawyer (he's like how old? 15?) but from his RMT empire. And the assumption follows, that since in the past year CCP has made arbitrary game design decisions that actively reduce their competition/increase Goons' RMT profits, that a few key devs are in the pocket of the Goons.

edit: and unless Sreegs is actively cheating for his old buddies, reporting botters is anonymous. And if Sreegs is actively cheating and you get banned for your anonymous report, the rest of EVE needs to know.




hi dumb guy gsf publishes public audit reports very regularly hth
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#451 - 2011-09-30 15:53:38 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

With all due respect, you seem a bit ignorant on the mechanics of detecting a bot.


So help the community out - post your own blurb to warn people what to look for. If you lack faith in Sreegs, help us help you.

I've been waiting for someone to provide a link to a guide, or answer my question, or anything of actual value here. We can't police bots if we don't know what precise behaviours demonstrate (even the likelihood) of a bot being used.

CCP promised a blog, hasn't come yet.

But you dont have to wait for them. You could do everyone a favor and post that information right here, it would go a long way towards assisting your fellow players (which I'm assuming you show more respect than CCP) to assist you in your anti-bot campaign.

If people are unwilling to do even that simple favor, I'm sorry, I just can't care enough either about the anti-bot crusade. I'm happy to keep playing the same game that has given me much fun over the last two years, blissfully unaware I was playing a broken piece of crap ruined by bots I didn't even know were ruining what I mistakenly thought was a fun time. :-P


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#452 - 2011-09-30 15:57:15 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Zagdul wrote:

The bandwagoning from Shadow of xXDeathXx is pretty damn ironic.

just sayn'



The words you're not saying are the loudest ones.

Shame, Zagdul. I had great respect for Fatal Ascension and I wish I could have spent more time with you guys. For you to condone botting like this leaves an awful after taste on my memories.

Where have I condoned botting?

Don't twist my words. We regularly remove entire corporations who we've found violating the EULA.

Not to mention that we've got entire crews who focus on anti-bot techniques and are EXTREMELY effective.

http://www.evenews24.com/2011/09/14/the-men-who-stare-at-bots-meet-fatal-ascension-very-own-bot-hunting-brigade/

Exactly. I've been in FA for 3 weeks, and in the first couple of days, I saw no less than 3 reminders that botting is bad, and botting will get you booted and killed in-game.

Its not tolerated in FA, simple as that.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2011-09-30 16:04:25 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

With all due respect, you seem a bit ignorant on the mechanics of detecting a bot.


So help the community out - post your own blurb to warn people what to look for. If you lack faith in Sreegs, help us help you.

I've been waiting for someone to provide a link to a guide, or answer my question, or anything of actual value here. We can't police bots if we don't know what precise behaviours demonstrate (even the likelihood) of a bot being used.

CCP promised a blog, hasn't come yet.

But you dont have to wait for them. You could do everyone a favor and post that information right here, it would go a long way towards assisting your fellow players (which I'm assuming you show more respect than CCP) to assist you in your anti-bot campaign.

If people are unwilling to do even that simple favor, I'm sorry, I just can't care enough either about the anti-bot crusade. I'm happy to keep playing the same game that has given me much fun over the last two years, blissfully unaware I was playing a broken piece of crap ruined by bots I didn't even know were ruining what I mistakenly thought was a fun time. :-P



CCP has said countless times that they cannot and will not release a Blog on how to detect bots.

Sreggs can respond himself if he'd like to cover why CCP will not, but basically, if they release their secrets on how they detect it, it's intel for the bot writers to make smarter bots.

Botting patterns are pretty easy to detect from a player perspective. And even if they're not a bot, where my players hunt, they're all hostile to us anyway so a kill is a kill.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#454 - 2011-09-30 16:05:19 UTC
Mallikanth wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Also, Mittens doesn't represent you to CCP. He represents Goons.

Which means Goons are controlling your game. Big smile Just thought I'd remind you of that.



1: For some reason I like Mittens.

2: Jokes aside, statements like that will ensure that he won't be re-elected.



For some reason I too agree with point one here.

If he still has the energy and will I wouldn't mind him being re-elected in any capacity so long as he continues to keep CCP on their toes.



Believe it or not I'm not a Goon alt! Lol and nether do I have a brown tongue ShockedLol







what will get him re-elected:
same things that GOT him elected;
biggest single playerbase backing
and the general pubic that know his name going "well, he'll either kill the game for fix it" - yeah I heard that countless times as to why ppl voted for him the first time.

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#455 - 2011-09-30 16:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


But you dont have to wait for them. You could do everyone a favor and post that information right here, it would go a long way towards assisting your fellow players (which I'm assuming you show more respect than CCP) to assist you in your anti-bot campaign.


instead of posting huge walls of text you could just look up the old threadnaught on the botting problem - in there someone linked a website that collected intelligence on suspected bots (before the "report bot" feature was available in the client). That site also had a pretty extensive list of typical bot behavior (i.e. what signs to check for before submitting a character name to their database).

but you won't because you are lazy and believe people would spend more than 5 minutes trying to convince you... not realizing that your opinion doesn't matter to anyone other than yourself.

edit: I did consider taking you seriously and explain the whole "warping to the sun" thing.
I would link you a website with the relevant code of a popular mission bot and you would answer "oh no, I don't know anything about programming you'll have to explain!" before even looking at it (after all all variable & method names are highly descriptive so the code is basically plain English...)
then I would write some wall of text on the way state machines work and how this bot implements the pattern...
Afterwards it would hopefully be obvious to you that the bot warps to the sun whenever shield, armor or capacitor fall below certain thresholds and no station to dock at is available.
Then i can start digging out forum quotes and code samples to explain why missiles are great for this bot and how CNRs are the best tool for the job given the bot's capabilities and the botter's desire to keep SP as low as possible.
Finally you would point out that my 1.5 hours worth of explanations didn't prove anything and that CNRs warping to a star whenever their shields get low may just as well be a coincident...
I would then bang my head against a wall for some time and consider explaining how behavioral signs like this can be of great use in Bayesian filtering (even if they are no conclusive "proof" on their own)...
but in the end I would just realize that I don't care enough about your opinion or convincing you to warrant this :effort:
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2011-09-30 16:06:41 UTC
Oh, and for any moron in this thread who doesn't like GSF's policies, I'm sure they wouldn't mind you doing some police work for them.

Happy Hunting.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#457 - 2011-09-30 16:09:55 UTC

You know, this whole issue would be so much easier and more enjoyable if botting was allowed. Then we could all enjoy it as simply another "game mechanic." I say, make it available to everyone, and then the outsiders would not be so jealous of those wielding the power. While we are at it, allow players to see whether an account is acting as a bot or under direct control from a person, afk or active. Trust the economy. It will adjust naturally, as it needs to and as it always has, and everyone will benefit from it.

Free the botters! Everyone share in the botting.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#458 - 2011-09-30 16:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


But you dont have to wait for them. You could do everyone a favor and post that information right here, it would go a long way towards assisting your fellow players (which I'm assuming you show more respect than CCP) to assist you in your anti-bot campaign.


instead of posting huge walls of text you could just look up the old threadnaught on the botting problem - in there someone linked a website that collected intelligence on suspected bots (before the "report bot" feature was available in the client). That site also had a pretty extensive list of typical bot behavior (i.e. what signs to check for before submitting a character name to their database).

but you won't because you are lazy and believe people would spend more than 5 minutes trying to convince you... not realizing that your opinion doesn't matter to anyone other than yourself.


Here Ill help

Andy Landen wrote:

You know, this whole issue would be so much easier and more enjoyable if botting was allowed. Then we could all enjoy it as simply another "game mechanic." I say, make it available to everyone, and then the outsiders would not be so jealous of those wielding the power. While we are at it, allow players to see whether an account is acting as a bot or under direct control from a person, afk or active. Trust the economy. It will adjust naturally, as it needs to and as it always has, and everyone will benefit from it.

Free the botters! Everyone share in the botting.


In before chicken little
that would destroy the economy

---then it should be destroyed now
this is already basically the case AS IS in 0.0

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Shai 'Hulud
#459 - 2011-09-30 16:11:25 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

With all due respect, you seem a bit ignorant on the mechanics of detecting a bot.


So help the community out - post your own blurb to warn people what to look for. If you lack faith in Sreegs, help us help you.

Did you read the rest of my post?

Not only is it not our job to actively fight rule breaking, it's largely beyond our capability. No one has given you a link on how to detect bots, because as a player you can't. We cannot tell if key presses are being sent WHILE a player is seemingly away from the keyboard, etc. Of course we should report suspected cases of rule breaking, but it's obvious at this point that such is not sufficient to put anything more than a scratch on the botting/RMT problems in this game.

Scripts should be running to detect suspicious behavior. Each bot script will leave very identifiable patterns in the data. If these patterns are looked for by scripts, then you essentially make them recode their bots so often that it ceases to be profitable. If we can tell a given player is probably a bot, then such can be done much more easily by CCP.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#460 - 2011-09-30 16:21:09 UTC
The EULA doesn't protect you from retaliation if you petition someone. You can be kicked from an alliance for any reason under the sun. They can reset any ally that recruits you, they can hunt you down until the servers go dark if they're so inclined.

Go beat your chest somewhere else.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar