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Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#81 - 2012-08-28 10:23:24 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't get why people cry about the mining barge buffs. It 's natural for NPC companies to develop better defences for mining ships when they are expected to be frequently attacked by pirates. People learn to adapt and develop solutions to suit their needs so it makes sense that mining ships would become stronger to suit the needs of the miners.


Your correct, but in defense of the article what the author was saying is that players already had the option to adapt and they don't work for NPC corporations, they work for themselves. Tanking up a mining ship to avoid a suicide gank was extremely easy to do and 100% effective before the patch. People simply didn't do it, hence the point to make is that players refused to adapt, so CCP adapted the game for them. I agree with author that this is not a good way to go about developing a competitive game. If players can't adapt because the mechanics are unfair, than yea, fix them... but if you have the option to adapt and you simply ignore it because the rewards are better if you choose not to tank out your miner, than you have a made a conscious player choice and should live with the consequences. Thats kind of like saying that an industrial player chose not to put warp stabilizers on his industrial ship because he filled it with cargo expanders and than came to CCP and demanded 5 free points on the industrial ships because its not fair that they can be warp scrammed. I don't think anyone would agree this is a good idea, but its effectively what happen with exhumers.

The only question here is should there be consequences in high sec? Is a game without consequences fun? I think these are some of the fundamental questions about suicide ganking.


Would you care to post a mining ship fit which was 100% gank proof?

Some well fitted ships cost more to gank, but there was not, is not, and should not be any mining ship which is 100% gank proof.


When I said 100% gank proof I wasn't referring to the tank (probably should have made that more clear) but simply to the fact that people would not gank you because it wouldn't be cost effective. Ganking at least for the large majority is still a profit game. Ultimatly every ship in the game can be ganked if cost is not an issue.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#82 - 2012-08-28 10:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Yokai Mitsuhide
Andski wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
If the cop could warp to the banks location in a moments notice...yeah, I think they could pull it off. You do understand analogy though right? The point is that the mechanics don't make any sense to anyone else but eve players...


the point is that you want absolutely no risk in hisec at all whatsoever


There shouldn't be that much risk...it is afterall HIGH SECURITY SPACE. Not saying there should be no risk but yeah...it's kinda fine the way it is.
pussnheels
Viziam
#83 - 2012-08-28 10:24:40 UTC
Some times i am convinced some of you whine just for the sake of whining

the Casual gank got a bit harder and more expensive to do ...so what?
Those revised barges and exhumers stats doesn't make them ungankable , contrary it made them in some cases more vulnerable to ganks especially the mack , , there are plenty of miners , i should say stupid miners that went ooh look 3 low slots lets fit in 3 MLU some rudementary tank against the rats and lets afk mine while i am watching some stupid reality show on TV
they may or may not survive the casual gank depends on your skill they will however not survive a serious gank attempt because too many miners still did not learn to adapt , or have this false sense of security
So yes there still plenty of gankable targets out there , it only became a bit harder setting up your gank
so stop posting this crap tabout how unfair it is miners got a buff, they didn't , mining yield still the same only the shiproles got changed

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-08-28 10:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Matriarch Prime
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't get why people cry about the mining barge buffs. It 's natural for NPC companies to develop better defences for mining ships when they are expected to be frequently attacked by pirates. People learn to adapt and develop solutions to suit their needs so it makes sense that mining ships would become stronger to suit the needs of the miners.


Your correct, but in defense of the article what the author was saying is that players already had the option to adapt and they don't work for NPC corporations, they work for themselves. Tanking up a mining ship to avoid a suicide gank was extremely easy to do and 100% effective before the patch. People simply didn't do it, hence the point to make is that players refused to adapt, so CCP adapted the game for them. I agree with author that this is not a good way to go about developing a competitive game. If players can't adapt because the mechanics are unfair, than yea, fix them... but if you have the option to adapt and you simply ignore it because the rewards are better if you choose not to tank out your miner, than you have a made a conscious player choice and should live with the consequences. Thats kind of like saying that an industrial player chose not to put warp stabilizers on his industrial ship because he filled it with cargo expanders and than came to CCP and demanded 5 free points on the industrial ships because its not fair that they can be warp scrammed. I don't think anyone would agree this is a good idea, but its effectively what happen with exhumers.

The only question here is should there be consequences in high sec? Is a game without consequences fun? I think these are some of the fundamental questions about suicide ganking.


Would you care to post a mining ship fit which was 100% gank proof?

Some well fitted ships cost more to gank, but there was not, is not, and should not be any mining ship which is 100% gank proof.


When I said 100% gank proof I wasn't referring to the tank (probably should have made that more clear) but simply to the fact that people would not gank you because it wouldn't be cost effective. Ganking at least for the large majority is still a profit game. Ultimatly every ship in the game can be ganked if cost is not an issue.


This is the internet. Noone takes you for what you obviously mean, but what they can twist and contrive to their own ends...for the sake of argument. :P

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
TharOkha
0asis Group
#85 - 2012-08-28 10:29:46 UTC
William Walker wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Saw the name - james 315.

Stopped right there.

It is probably best for james if folk do not encourage his really strange obsession with miners.

His article will be about miners and how they are destroying Eve. He should change his name to James One-Note.

The self obsessed ego and the miner obsessed ego.


I have to agree with you there, I did find that their seemed to be some sort of deep rooted hatred of miners in the tone, but despite it I found his arguments pretty compelling as a whole.

I suppose the outlining question is, would it be bad for Eve if High Sec was perfectly safe and Eve had a larger population as a trade off?


What good is a bigger population if I can not shoot them?


Oh you still can. But instead of suicide gank 300m+ ship by 2m destroyer, now you need at least 70m+ BC. Blink

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#86 - 2012-08-28 10:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The onus, so to speak, is on those who want to change the game to make suicide ganking more marginal and rare, not on those who believe it should stay as it is now.


Perhaps it should be, but given CCP's current patching focus, it would seem that they side with a safe or at least safer for the time being, High Sec. As such I think now is the time to remind them of any valid points about why suicide ganking should remain a valid profession. I don't disagree with you though, suicide ganking has been around a very long time, it is part of the tradition and culture of the game so it really should be on the anti-ganking camp to make their arguments, but in Eve just like in life things are rarely fair, just or otherwise. Another words, unless the community shows some outrage, i think a safe high sec will one day very soon be a reality if the conspiracy theorist (the author of the article) is correct in his assessment, which while I don't 100% agree with, I think has some pretty heavy handed evidence. Most of the replies that support changes for a safer high sec really are coming from high sec carebears and I think most old school Eve players will agree that these people come and go and while the arguments from this group is the same its usually not from the same accounts. Meanwhile the supporters of a dangerous game world come from older more established players. I would love to see someone with a 7 year old account come on the forums and say "get rid of suicide ganking, here is why", but unless I missed them so far I haven't seen that. Some credibility of the anti argument in the form of veteran players I think would be good for the discussion.

I have a few pro suicide ganking arguments to make myself but not being a suicide ganker I don't think I have the credentials to speak for it or against it for that matter. I do believe however its important issue as a safe high sec will most certainly change the dynamics of the game for better of or for worse.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#87 - 2012-08-28 10:37:16 UTC


Quote:


I was interested in seeing what you had to say until I saw "themittani.com" link. All curiosity disappeared rather quickly after that.




You missing out on a very good eve news site.


Regardless of the name - just have a look . Be surprised.

[/quote]

Agreed. Perhaps taking on the Mittani label wasn't a hot idea given his reputation, but for what its worth being a skeptic, I have read every article with a raised eye-brow and I find that while sometimes there are a few CFC and Goon jibes, the propaganda is kept to a minimum. Besides most of the good articles are of the inquisitive and opinion variety so as such they are generally skewed to the opinion of the writer which is always the case in such articles. As for battle reports they come from people that where there, so you know who's view of the battle your getting, hence its not hard to differentiate fact from opinion.

Given the alternative (EveNews24) which is nothing more than a barrage of bullshit where facts are a rare commodity, by comparison TheMittani is easily the best publication of information on the web about Eve and I would even say better than the Eve magazines.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Randomy Randomy
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-08-28 10:45:18 UTC
Lol.

1. You cant mine afk in high sec, because you need to switch and target a new asteroid nearly after every cycle.

2. It's just a ganker's whine thread from a one sided ganker perspecive who only play a little aspect of EVE ( ganking miners in high security space), and makes conclusions for the whole game, so the article is everything but not objective.

3. New players and carebears still have a lot of fail and error that can occur while they play even if they never mining at all -> EVE is still a hard game for newbies and everyone else too.

(4. Why ganking a miner is so good? I rather gank a hauler to make a profit. but ganking a hauler is hard and you need patience, so its easier to gank a miner for 0% profit just to blow up someone and feel yourself evil, etc maybe, I don't know. Ganking miners would be fun for a short time, but in long term, I think it cause pleasure only to people who have some mental trouble. IMO.)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-08-28 10:46:07 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
Andski wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
If the cop could warp to the banks location in a moments notice...yeah, I think they could pull it off. You do understand analogy though right? The point is that the mechanics don't make any sense to anyone else but eve players...


the point is that you want absolutely no risk in hisec at all whatsoever


There shouldn't be that much risk...it is afterall HIGH SECURITY SPACE. Not saying there should be no risk but yeah...it's kinda fine the way it is.


there isn't much risk for those who take steps to mitigate it, which is fine

what some people want, however, is to be able to autopilot their officer fit tengus with plex in the hold between market hubs

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
#90 - 2012-08-28 10:50:21 UTC
Another butthurt "I want EVE to be played my way wah wah wah" thread...people tend to forget that the membership of Goonswarm, and those who actually visit the forums, only represent a very small proportion of the total EVE player base.

What the Goonies in turn seem to forget, is that for most players, EVE is a casual pursuit, not a meta game. I suggest Goons go off and find something more in line with their requirements, rather that trying to change something that most players are generally happy with.

Nothing new here. Move on.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#91 - 2012-08-28 10:51:10 UTC
Randomy Randomy wrote:
Lol.

1. You cant mine afk in high sec, because you need to switch and target a new asteroid nearly after every cycle.

2. It's just a ganker's whine thread from a one sided ganker perspecive who only play a little aspect of EVE ( ganking miners in high security space), and makes conclusions for the whole game, so the article is everything but not objective.

3. New players and carebears still have a lot of fail and error that can occur while they play even if they never mining at all -> EVE is still a hard game for newbies and everyone else too.

(4. Why ganking a miner is so good? I rather gank a hauler to make a profit. but ganking a hauler is hard and you need patience, so its easier to gank a miner for 0% profit just to blow up someone and feel yourself evil, etc maybe, I don't know. Ganking miners would be fun for a short time, but in long term, I think it cause pleasure only to people who have some mental trouble. IMO.)


Thank you for creating an alt just for my post, but we aren't looking for posts that start with LOL and other internet jiberish, we are looking for creditable people with creditable opinions. So if you don't mind, either post with your main and make a point, or go here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=8170&find=unread and make fun of peoples avatars. Thanks

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-08-28 10:51:44 UTC
Randomy Randomy wrote:
Lol.

1. You cant mine afk in high sec, because you need to switch and target a new asteroid nearly after every cycle.


Please tell us about these ice asteroids that you can't AFK mine.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-08-28 10:55:01 UTC
Suicide gank breaks the core tenant of the game that is that you must risk much to gain much. High sec gankers exploit the patchwork mechanics of aggression in high security. In low security, such miscreants would be dealt with before they had a chance to act, instead the false security protects them from appropriate aggression until after the deed has been done and the consequence have been met.

In no way is losing a worthless pod or frigate a deterrent to further criminal action on the part of the aggressor (ganker). High sec players have no recourse by which to deter this activity. It is the funny little loop hole in the system that makes this all possible.

To put it another way. It would be better to completely remove the high security system than to continue allow this exploitative behavior. It is inconsistent with the spirit of play. I would pop every low standing pilot I saw without question if I had the choice. In my mind, if you flip cans and pop noobs, ninja salvage/loot or suicide gank. I would give you plenty of lead to chew on. On sight. In my mind, high sec is where civilized player play, and none of that nonsense should be allowed.

I think the changes to aggression will help alleviate this concern, but the problem won't be completely gone. I rather that low security standing players step in fear into high security. They fully understand that stepping into high security with low standing means they are at the full mercy of the high sec population. They earned it, they should reap it.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#94 - 2012-08-28 10:58:42 UTC
Hestia Mar wrote:
Another butthurt "I want EVE to be played my way wah wah wah" thread...people tend to forget that the membership of Goonswarm, and those who actually visit the forums, only represent a very small proportion of the total EVE player base.

What the Goonies in turn seem to forget, is that for most players, EVE is a casual pursuit, not a meta game. I suggest Goons go off and find something more in line with their requirements, rather that trying to change something that most players are generally happy with.

Nothing new here. Move on.


If it was only one alliance or one corp propigating suicide ganking and everyone else was against it, it would have gone the way of the do-do bird a long time ago. Trust me, I played this game in a time when Goonswarm was a newbie alliance full of amateurs who didn't know how to fit a T1 frigate and back than their was more suicide ganking than their is today during Hulkegedons. Goons are neither the inventors of suicide ganking nore are they particularly clever at it. There are far worse offenders and this is hardly a "Goon" thing.

Now Goons do support it, but as far as I'm concerned they are the only people in this game who have an actual valid reason to do it as its part of their strategic plan to create chaos in Eve as they wage a war to win Eve. To me, if a player or group of players, do something.. anything, in Eve with a purpose and a plan... its good for Eve regardless of the outcome. Its when people do it just to be dicks... that's when I would come to question the mechanic. So while I'm not a fan of Goons by any stretch of the imagination having swapped paint with them more than I care to admit, a game with a pulse and purpose, is a good game..

I do agree with you that their is a lot of ass-hatery within the scope of suicide ganking and I'm yet to understand its existence at all, but again, I don't see how Goons own suicide ganking. People did it before Goons and they will do it long after Goons.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Randomy Randomy
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-08-28 11:02:02 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Randomy Randomy wrote:
Lol.

1. You cant mine afk in high sec, because you need to switch and target a new asteroid nearly after every cycle.

2. It's just a ganker's whine thread from a one sided ganker perspecive who only play a little aspect of EVE ( ganking miners in high security space), and makes conclusions for the whole game, so the article is everything but not objective.

3. New players and carebears still have a lot of fail and error that can occur while they play even if they never mining at all -> EVE is still a hard game for newbies and everyone else too.

(4. Why ganking a miner is so good? I rather gank a hauler to make a profit. but ganking a hauler is hard and you need patience, so its easier to gank a miner for 0% profit just to blow up someone and feel yourself evil, etc maybe, I don't know. Ganking miners would be fun for a short time, but in long term, I think it cause pleasure only to people who have some mental trouble. IMO.)


Thank you for creating an alt just for my post, but we aren't looking for posts that start with LOL and other internet jiberish, we are looking for creditable people with creditable opinions. So if you don't mind, either post with your main and make a point, or go here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=8170&find=unread and make fun of peoples avatars. Thanks


1. Creditable options doesn't depends on the first word of a post.
2. You can't do anything to silence me, and I know this make you feel frustrated.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#96 - 2012-08-28 11:02:18 UTC
Matriarch Prime wrote:
Suicide gank breaks the core tenant of the game that is that you must risk much to gain much. High sec gankers exploit the patchwork mechanics of aggression in high security. In low security, such miscreants would be dealt with before they had a chance to act, instead the false security protects them from appropriate aggression until after the deed has been done and the consequence have been met.

In no way is losing a worthless pod or frigate a deterrent to further criminal action on the part of the aggressor (ganker). High sec players have no recourse by which to deter this activity. It is the funny little loop hole in the system that makes this all possible.

To put it another way. It would be better to completely remove the high security system than to continue allow this exploitative behavior. It is inconsistent with the spirit of play. I would pop every low standing pilot I saw without question if I had the choice. In my mind, if you flip cans and pop noobs, ninja salvage/loot or suicide gank. I would give you plenty of lead to chew on. On sight. In my mind, high sec is where civilized player play, and none of that nonsense should be allowed.

I think the changes to aggression will help alleviate this concern, but the problem won't be completely gone. I rather that low security standing players step in fear into high security. They fully understand that stepping into high security with low standing means they are at the full mercy of the high sec population. They earned it, they should reap it.


Well put. Thanks for that.

Lets assume for a second you got your way, do you believe the Risk vs. Rewards in high sec are appropriate today? Level 4 Missions for example?

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-08-28 11:03:19 UTC
Matriarch Prime wrote:
high sec is where civilized player play


Yes, a lot of the highsec miners I've met lately are fine, upstandingexamples of humanity.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#98 - 2012-08-28 11:03:34 UTC
Quote:

1. Creditable options doesn't depends on the first word of a post.
2. You can't do anything to silence me, and I know this make you feel frustrated.


Not frustrated at all. I was just hoping you would make a well constructed post with an actual opinion that deserves to be heard. So far your doing a **** poor job of it, even with an alt.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2012-08-28 11:03:40 UTC
Had to stop reading it because it's one huge load of bullcrap,
from one guy who must have mental deficiencies.

People, stop behaving like miners are the only targets out there
and it's all good.

Are there any people left who aren't cowards or plain idiots ? o_O
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-08-28 11:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Solstice Project wrote:
Are there any people left who aren't cowards or plain idiots ? o_O


It's funny you bring that up. I always felt that someone who shoots at a poor, defenceless rock all day was both a coward & an idiot.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.