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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2012-08-28 21:39:21 UTC
Jypsie wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


You're the one trying to prove the point the onus is on you.


Actually not. For all the mental ************ going on in this thread its only what the developers say that matters.

You couldn't be more wrong.
The players make more of the game than the developers do, and they know this.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2012-08-28 21:39:32 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Jypsie wrote:

I was responding to La Nariz who was responding to a post about exhumer ganking.

I care eff all about the rest of the thread.


Still waiting for those numbers npc alt.


I like the goons, they add fun to the game, but they do need to learn to think for themselves a bit.

This 'npc alt' bit is just boring, is it a goon rule that they must all use the same phrases, with the penalty for not using them to be made to mine in hi-sec for a month?

I will stop posting with an alt when the goons stop using neutral alts to move goods into and out of hi-sec.


The "thinking" we've done is that npc alts are not relevant and should not even be allowed to post, and that they should consider themselves privileged when they receive a response from one of us.

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Ravyn Antollare
Dead Space Continuum
#283 - 2012-08-28 21:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravyn Antollare
As someone who has spent most of their short time with EVE in high sec - and who is bored to death of EVE as a consequence of this - I feel I need to remind miners of one key fact:

EVE is an MMO. One very good method for preventing suicide ganking, is to team up with your corp mates, set guards on your mining ops. That way, a hostile warping to you can be intercepted and dealt with before they are able to hit your miners. Will this always work? No. Will it work a often enough to prevent suicide ganking? Absolutely.

Furthermore, here are the steps to mining correctly, even in high sec:

1. Find rocks with a small, fast ship. Save their location.
2. Warp directly to rocks in your miner
3. Deploy combat drones for defense against Rats
4. Align your ship to a station or celestial
5. Remain at your keyboard while mining
6. Warp out the second a possible ganker makes their first appearance.

Do these things, and mine in groups. If you played EVE as the MMO it was inteded to be - as opposed to an AFK virtual money making sim - you wouldn't have many of these problems.

The problem isn't that mining boats are weak. The problem is that people want to be able to mine while they play other games, too. If mining is boring, then don't do it. But don't ask the DEVS to accomodate your desire to not actually play the game while your avatar plays it for you.


PS: About your ridiculous Destroyers vs. Exhumers argument, dear miners, let me say this:

I have walked the decks of US Navy destroyers and aircraft carriers. I have worked in the holds of tugboats and merchant vessels. And I assure you that, despite the cost of both vessels, a single navy frigate could easily sink not only a tugboat or merchant trader, but a deep sea mining platform or supertanker, if it cared to or had the need.

The cost isn't the relevant bit. The part that matters, is the ship's intended purpose.
Josef Djugashvilis
#284 - 2012-08-28 21:42:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I will stop posting with an alt when the goons stop using neutral alts to move goods into and out of hi-sec.

Yeah, there's a legitimate reason they do that.


My legitimate reason for 'alt posting' is to prevent my personal views causing any possible harm to my corpies.

They should not have to suffer for my foolishness.

This is not a signature.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2012-08-28 21:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Jypsie wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


You're the one trying to prove the point the onus is on you.


Actually not. For all the mental ************ going on in this thread its only what the developers say that matters.


You're kidding right? We've generated more free advertising and draw for this game than CCP's entire marketing budget. Burn Jita, the Great War, space heists, hell we're even mentioned in an EVE article by the nytimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

The players are what makes the content for this game, the devs just give us the tools to do it. What the developers say pales in comparison to the content created by the players.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Josef Djugashvilis
#286 - 2012-08-28 21:44:51 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Jypsie wrote:

I was responding to La Nariz who was responding to a post about exhumer ganking.

I care eff all about the rest of the thread.


Still waiting for those numbers npc alt.


I like the goons, they add fun to the game, but they do need to learn to think for themselves a bit.

This 'npc alt' bit is just boring, is it a goon rule that they must all use the same phrases, with the penalty for not using them to be made to mine in hi-sec for a month?

I will stop posting with an alt when the goons stop using neutral alts to move goods into and out of hi-sec.


The "thinking" we've done is that npc alts are not relevant and should not even be allowed to post, and that they should consider themselves privileged when they receive a response from one of us.


And so modest as well.

Where do I sign up to be a goon?

So much humble pie to eat. Yum yum.

This is not a signature.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#287 - 2012-08-28 21:45:04 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I will stop posting with an alt when the goons stop using neutral alts to move goods into and out of hi-sec.

Yeah, there's a legitimate reason they do that.


My legitimate reason for 'alt posting' is to prevent my personal views causing any possible harm to my corpies.

They should not have to suffer for my foolishness.


Ah but see you can gank a goon freighter alt in space its hard to gank an NPC posting alt that never enters the game.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#288 - 2012-08-28 21:45:43 UTC
Matriarch Prime wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
I would pop every low standing pilot I saw without question if I had the choice. In my mind, if you flip cans and pop noobs, ninja salvage/loot or suicide gank. I would give you plenty of lead to chew on. On sight. In my mind, high sec is where civilized player play, and none of that nonsense should be allowed.

I think the changes to aggression will help alleviate this concern, but the problem won't be completely gone. I rather that low security standing players step in fear into high security. They fully understand that stepping into high security with low standing means they are at the full mercy of the high sec population. They earned it, they should reap it.

No you wouldn't, because you're a coward. And I don't mean that as a personal attack; it's merely an observation based on your posting tendencies and content.

The fact that you're a coward, and the fact that other players who share your sentiments about ganking are cowards, are exactly the reasons why CCP makes changes to the game wherein the "consequences" for criminal activities are enforced by NPC entities, instead of the players themselves, who already possess an overabundance of mechanics to deal with gankers, thieves, and ninjas, and have indeed possessed the means of prevention and retribution for a long, long time.


I guess well find out where the cards lay in a few months. Unscrupulous players have been skirting the aggression mechanics for years in high sec. Open aggression, and single party flagging should put an end to much of these games, and the game will be better off for it. I'm going to laugh every time I see some poor fool stuck riding a pod all the way back to low/null where his/her behavior belongs.

The combined population of null and low is in the upper teens. Removing high-sec aggression isn't going to magically make "griefers" move there (especially considering that "griefers" are null/low vets to begin with). Nor will it make the carebears move out of their safety net, since they will be so ingrained in their belieef of entitlement to safety, they will never muster the courage to take those risks. What will happen instead is the destruction of the game's economy, as stuff starts getting made at accelerated rates, while being destroyed at rates that are much slower.

You will be laughing, granted, but you will be laughing alone. Maybe that's what you want, I don't know. I'm not here to judge; I'm here to argue for the preservation of the core integrity of this game.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2012-08-28 21:46:24 UTC
Methesda wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
I'm going to laugh every time I see some poor fool stuck riding a pod all the way back to low/null where his/her behavior belongs.


Your implication is INSANE! You are playing a game based on the idea that every mistake has it consequences - hell, even being in the wrong place at the wrong time can have it's consequences - that's the POINT of Eve, and what makes it unique, as it isn't just banal dopameine-inducing progression. The constant set-backs are what keeps players in the game for nearly a decade.

You play this game, and yet you feel that players who take advantage of that core concept should be relegated to another part of the game like it's some sort of prison?


The action by the these types of players being discussed here have been deterred for years to no real effect. And now that said players now will no longer be able to hide behind shoddy mechanics and finally face up to their actions in clear appropriate manner, somehow I'm the one that's insane for expecting sane behavior is a supposed civilize part of this game world?

Yes. Every player make decisions that effect their gameplay experience, and they are free to reap what they have sown. For good or for ill.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#290 - 2012-08-28 21:47:34 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Erenial wrote:
For all the crap you see posted about this topic, for all the drama, it is absolutely pointless to debate. If you aren't a hisec ganker, NONE of this affects you. so please STFU, undock, and go shoot something.

This affects EVERYONE, because we're concerned that CCP is caving to people who want to play the game in safety without any effort and creating an environment where this is possible.



No one is seriously suggesting that any part of Eve, except in stations should be safe - and hopefully that will change in time - all that has really happened is that ganking now costs more.

As the elite pvpers would put it 'adapt'


Except that CCP put forth a ~wonderful~ precedent here in caving to the miner howling. Now we all should not have to adapt at all should we howl loud enough on the forums even if everything is actually fine. The EHP changes and resistance changes should be reverted, except for the skiff/procurer.



CCP didnt give in to "miner howling" they gave into the stupidity that was an making hulkaggeddon permanent. Like most kids, you guys took it too far. Once a year for 30 days was fine and qualifies as an event. Making it permanent exploits a broken mechanic where ganking was too easy and profitable.

For all the supposed miner tears you guys talk about, you elite pvpers sure are making a pile of your own now that the easy, unarmed targets got a small buff.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2012-08-28 21:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:


And so modest as well.

Where do I sign up to be a goon?

So much humble pie to eat. Yum yum.


See my sig :smug:

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Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#292 - 2012-08-28 21:51:57 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Jypsie wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


You're the one trying to prove the point the onus is on you.


Actually not. For all the mental ************ going on in this thread its only what the developers say that matters.


You're kidding right? We've generated more free advertising and draw for this game than CCP's entire marketing budget. Burn Jita, the Great War, space heists, hell we're even mentioned in an EVE article by the nytimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

The players are what makes the content for this game, the devs just give us the tools to do it. What the developers say pales in comparison to the content created by the players.


Did a great job stopping that mining barge buff from going through, didn't ya?

Short of the Incarna/Nex/Greed Riots, all the players really do is show the developers their actions and provide the data that they use to make the real decisions.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2012-08-28 21:52:09 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

Except that CCP put forth a ~wonderful~ precedent here in caving to the miner howling. Now we all should not have to adapt at all should we howl loud enough on the forums even if everything is actually fine. The EHP changes and resistance changes should be reverted, except for the skiff/procurer.



CCP didnt give in to "miner howling" they gave into the stupidity that was an making hulkaggeddon permanent. Like most kids, you guys took it too far. Once a year for 30 days was fine and qualifies as an event. Making it permanent exploits a broken mechanic where ganking was too easy and profitable.

For all the supposed miner tears you guys talk about, you elite pvpers sure are making a pile of your own now that the easy, unarmed targets got a small buff.


Yeah they did, hulkaggeddon was whined about just as much as suicide ganking was. I'm sure if you check back some pages you'll find plenty of miner howling ranging from "isk = tank" to "GOONS GOONS GOONS." Shouldn't you as a miner be insulted that CCP insinuates you are literally too stupid to fit your ship correctly?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2012-08-28 21:52:53 UTC
Jypsie wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Jypsie wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


You're the one trying to prove the point the onus is on you.


Actually not. For all the mental ************ going on in this thread its only what the developers say that matters.


You're kidding right? We've generated more free advertising and draw for this game than CCP's entire marketing budget. Burn Jita, the Great War, space heists, hell we're even mentioned in an EVE article by the nytimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

The players are what makes the content for this game, the devs just give us the tools to do it. What the developers say pales in comparison to the content created by the players.


Did a great job stopping that mining barge buff from going through, didn't ya?

Short of the Incarna/Nex/Greed Riots, all the players really do is show the developers their actions and provide the data that they use to make the real decisions.



This wouldn't be the first time CCP screwed up now would it?

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Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2012-08-28 21:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabrina Solette
Volar Kang wrote:
CCP didnt give in to "miner howling" they gave into the stupidity that was an making hulkaggeddon permanent.

Like most kids, you guys took it too far. Once a year for 30 days was fine and qualifies as an event. Making it permanent exploits a broken mechanic where ganking was too easy and profitable.



Yeah, I agree with this.



But some people will take things too far and then wonder why things change.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2012-08-28 21:56:46 UTC
Sabrina Solette wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:
CCP didnt give in to "miner howling" they gave into the stupidity that was an making hulkaggeddon permanent.

Like most kids, you guys took it too far. Once a year for 30 days was fine and qualifies as an event. Making it permanent exploits a broken mechanic where ganking was too easy and profitable.

For all the supposed miner tears you guys talk about, you elite pvpers sure are making a pile of your own now that the easy, unarmed targets got a small buff.



Yeah, I agree with this.



But some people will take things too far and then wonder why things change.


So preying on the stupid and the lazy is a broken mechanic now?

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Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#297 - 2012-08-28 21:58:48 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


This wouldn't be the first time CCP screwed up now would it?


Wouldn't be the first time some self important dips shiptoasted up GD thinking their ideas were the greatest thing in the game.

I'll even include myself in this one Blink
Ravyn Antollare
Dead Space Continuum
#298 - 2012-08-28 22:00:48 UTC
I fail to understand the argument in favor of more safety in EVE. Want more safety? I hear you can mine and salvage in Guild Wars 2. All on strict PVE servers, at that. So there you go - off with you now.

Risk is what makes EVE great. Real Risk, and real Loss. Without these two things, EVE is just another theme park MMO. With subpar missions/quests, at that. Without real risk, and real loss, EVE is just...lost in the crowd of aging - and dying - MMO's.

Now you can argue about there being a low/null sec for that, if we want to go there. And that's true, to an extent.

But capitalism drives EVE. With so much of EVE being safe space now, and resources in safe space being so plentiful, CCP have removed all incentive for going into low or null sec. When profit is the main motivator, you obtain it through the safest means available, logically. And with high sec plus huge ore bays on Retrievers and Mackinaws, well, safety is abundant.

What I would do differently, to fix this:

-Only Veldspar and Scordite appear in anything 0.5 or higher. Once or twice in an entire system, you MIGHT see Plagio.
-High sec mining belts respawn only once per week
-Variants of regular ore only appear in 0.4 or lower. Massive/Dense/Fiery/Silver/Gold variations - low sec only
-ALL mining belts outside of beginner systems are considered null sec. CONCORD has stations and gates to guard. They can't do that, and guard risky areas like sites and mining belts, that you voluntarily traveled to.
-Raise NPC corp taxes to 50% for players who have been on longer than 60 days

Doing this would force miners into riskier areas. It would also make all belts riskier by their new, null sec nature. The results would I think be something like the following:

-Miners would be forced to group. All of a sudden, remaining in NPC corps would cost you. Big. As would mining without guards.

-Ship prices would increase. Drastically. This would offset the dangers of low sec mining somewhat, as attacks on mining corps would cost down time, since ship prices would increase as this new system made ore more scarce.

-People would be forced to remain at the keyboard while mining. To actually play EVE, as opposed to turning it on and ignoring it. Its the AFK whiners having the biggest problem. Its also the 16hr a day AFK miners who are making everything so common in the game now. Since the mining boat rebalance I have watched the price of Gallente HAC's come down $50mil. That's too much, too quick, and its a direct result of the ease of obtaining many minerals.
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#299 - 2012-08-28 22:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Matriarch Prime
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
I would pop every low standing pilot I saw without question if I had the choice. In my mind, if you flip cans and pop noobs, ninja salvage/loot or suicide gank. I would give you plenty of lead to chew on. On sight. In my mind, high sec is where civilized player play, and none of that nonsense should be allowed.

I think the changes to aggression will help alleviate this concern, but the problem won't be completely gone. I rather that low security standing players step in fear into high security. They fully understand that stepping into high security with low standing means they are at the full mercy of the high sec population. They earned it, they should reap it.

No you wouldn't, because you're a coward. And I don't mean that as a personal attack; it's merely an observation based on your posting tendencies and content.

The fact that you're a coward, and the fact that other players who share your sentiments about ganking are cowards, are exactly the reasons why CCP makes changes to the game wherein the "consequences" for criminal activities are enforced by NPC entities, instead of the players themselves, who already possess an overabundance of mechanics to deal with gankers, thieves, and ninjas, and have indeed possessed the means of prevention and retribution for a long, long time.


I guess well find out where the cards lay in a few months. Unscrupulous players have been skirting the aggression mechanics for years in high sec. Open aggression, and single party flagging should put an end to much of these games, and the game will be better off for it. I'm going to laugh every time I see some poor fool stuck riding a pod all the way back to low/null where his/her behavior belongs.

The combined population of null and low is in the upper teens. Removing high-sec aggression isn't going to magically make "griefers" move there (especially considering that "griefers" are null/low vets to begin with). Nor will it make the carebears move out of their safety net, since they will be so ingrained in their belieef of entitlement to safety, they will never muster the courage to take those risks. What will happen instead is the destruction of the game's economy, as stuff starts getting made at accelerated rates, while being destroyed at rates that are much slower.

You will be laughing, granted, but you will be laughing alone. Maybe that's what you want, I don't know. I'm not here to judge; I'm here to argue for the preservation of the core integrity of this game.


I think with a much more robust high sec, then they developers can more appropriately address high sec mission running, exploration and mining in a much more robust fashion as well. If it is clear that high sec is indeed of high security then they can start incentiving low and null much more aggressively. Don't get me wrong. I am under no illusions that getting the carebears to dip thier feet out into deep waters is not going to come out of some passionate dev blog extoling the all the wonders that can be had by slipping out your confort zone. No, it will take progressive and concerted steps to get the right balance and tips the scales on the risk reward ratio.

Multi-billion isk mission ships are not the future of eve, nor should it be for all but the most highly organized mission running gangs. And they should want to run in the security of their own soverenties in a coordinated group effort. Sure...let it be safe enough to pimping around jita with your faction fitted pirateship. Good luck getting it somewhere where you can run missions for a decent profit enough to be worth that isk.

High sec should be an extended tutorial or for players just wanting to log on for a mission or two. The real draw should be in more risky endevours. And that will take time, and a coordinated raodmap to reduce high sec rewards and help players transition, maybe not so willingly, into more dangerous terriories.

So, yeah, I'm a died in the wool carebear right here. Or maybe I believe in a longer term goal than supporting some bored pvp'r that can't even be bother with a gate camp, but can find time to go flip noobies' cans.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#300 - 2012-08-28 22:03:44 UTC
@ OP: Ganker is mad he can't gank T2 200m+ ships in dessies anymore.

CCP Soundwave wrote:
Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense. The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off and this change should bring that to a better spot.


/thread

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.