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Stop forcing me to wear high heels

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Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2012-08-23 12:37:23 UTC
Could people stop attempting to derail my thread with dumb strawman arguments please thanks. If you have a genuine issue make another thread about it.
Dajli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2012-08-23 13:11:48 UTC
Lol, CCP just now got around to solving the whole "black" race thing by providing all the spectrum of skin tones for all races instead of just the Brutor.

On that note when are we going to get animal prints?
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#103 - 2012-08-23 14:04:19 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Could people stop attempting to derail my thread with dumb strawman arguments please thanks. If you have a genuine issue make another thread about it.


What's a strawman argument? I've looked it up but still don't get the context you're using.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-08-23 15:56:01 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Could people stop attempting to derail my thread with dumb strawman arguments please thanks. If you have a genuine issue make another thread about it.


What's a strawman argument? I've looked it up but still don't get the context you're using.


A strawman argument is taking someone elses argument and twisting what they said into a weaker, less informative, and generally stupid statment. Then the "strawman argument" is destroyed. (hence it being made of straw) A person who creates strawman arguments, is responding not to the original statment, but to their own deliberatly misinterperted and weakened argument.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#105 - 2012-08-23 16:26:18 UTC
Context is the primary consideration in things relating to EVE.
Either a game aspect has gameplay effects or it doesn't.

High heel shoes have cosmetic effects, in a very specific and limited context.
(Unless you can see them directly, it is not a known factor)

Your ship has no bonuses or penalties derived from your character's footwear in the publicity image.
Your character's footwear is not even visible to most representations, the Captain's Quarters being one of the few exceptions.

To have an objection to this, requires us to abandon the context of EVE, and substitute instead a specific real world bias against women. Such bias is hardly a universal constant, and is not omnipresent in the real world.

It is fair to say only a very limited cross section of society would even be considered to share such a bias.

You bring up straw man arguments being knocked down by those not agreeing with you.

Was your argument truly so substantial that such a comparison even makes sense?
Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2012-08-23 19:10:08 UTC
It's not important to me therefore It can be important to anyone else! Good argument.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#107 - 2012-08-23 21:30:30 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
It's not important to me therefore It can be important to anyone else! Good argument.

No.

I did not say it was lacking importance to you. You are free to care about anything, regardless of it's significance.

But before you expect ANY of us to share your view, you do need to convince us. I would hardly expect devs to be easier to sway than your fellow players.

For the reasons I stated before, you have not made your case to me.

Considering the plain nature of the logic here, I don't see or expect anyone else to seriously agree with you either.
Jim Era
#108 - 2012-08-23 22:39:13 UTC
lol women always wanting to compete

Wat™
Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2012-08-23 22:57:33 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
It's not important to me therefore It can be important to anyone else! Good argument.

No.

I did not say it was lacking importance to you. You are free to care about anything, regardless of it's significance.

But before you expect ANY of us to share your view, you do need to convince us. I would hardly expect devs to be easier to sway than your fellow players.

For the reasons I stated before, you have not made your case to me.

Considering the plain nature of the logic here, I don't see or expect anyone else to seriously agree with you either.



It put's off new female players
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#110 - 2012-08-24 04:18:01 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
It's not important to me therefore It can be important to anyone else! Good argument.

No.

I did not say it was lacking importance to you. You are free to care about anything, regardless of it's significance.

But before you expect ANY of us to share your view, you do need to convince us. I would hardly expect devs to be easier to sway than your fellow players.

For the reasons I stated before, you have not made your case to me.

Considering the plain nature of the logic here, I don't see or expect anyone else to seriously agree with you either.



It put's off new female players

Not really.

A little annoying, but so is (or are...) the Prequel Trilogy. I still watched them... and enjoyed bits and pieces.
Amy Xadi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2012-08-24 05:09:51 UTC
That was really kind of annoying when I first made my character, but now I just pretend the combat boots just have a weird design and that they're not actually high heels. I'm mostly disappointed that the whole walking in stations feature wasn't really fleshed out.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#112 - 2012-08-24 06:24:46 UTC
@Vassal Zeren - Thanks for the explanation
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2012-08-24 14:38:51 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
@Vassal Zeren - Thanks for the explanation



np

thanks for the thank you!

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-08-24 14:41:24 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
It's not important to me therefore It can be important to anyone else! Good argument.

No.

I did not say it was lacking importance to you. You are free to care about anything, regardless of it's significance.

But before you expect ANY of us to share your view, you do need to convince us. I would hardly expect devs to be easier to sway than your fellow players.

For the reasons I stated before, you have not made your case to me.

Considering the plain nature of the logic here, I don't see or expect anyone else to seriously agree with you either.



It put's off new female players

Not really.

A little annoying, but so is (or are...) the Prequel Trilogy. I still watched them... and enjoyed bits and pieces.


you've got to wonder if Lucas really made them...I guess no one said "no" to him at the studio so he put in all the random stuff he wanted.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#115 - 2012-08-24 14:44:04 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
@Vassal Zeren - Thanks for the explanation



np

thanks for the thank you!

Thank you for the general air of polite discourse, rather than the hostile smelling Vestiphobia.
(Vestiphobia is the fear of clothing, shoes in this case)

A pity, she seems a lovely being otherwise...

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Megan Shazam
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2012-08-24 15:08:23 UTC
Agree 100%. I went shopping for shoes, and could only find those high heel shoes... It did not bother me to the point of writing a post on it, but since you mentioned it, I'll support this motion :)

+1 !
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-08-24 17:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
@Vassal Zeren - Thanks for the explanation



np

thanks for the thank you!

Thank you for the general air of polite discourse, rather than the hostile smelling Vestiphobia.
(Vestiphobia is the fear of clothing, shoes in this case)

A pity, she seems a lovely being otherwise...


I can understand where she's coming from though. There is a lot of stereotypical stuff flying around and I suppose CCP doing it too doesn't help. But yeah I think if everyone would take a more relaxed approach in discussions like this there would be room for joking and serious debate alike. As is, almost everyone on the forums seems a little uptight.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#118 - 2012-08-24 17:22:42 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
I can understand where she's coming from though. There is a lot of stereotypical stuff flying around and I suppose CCP doing it too doesn't help. But yeah I think if everyone would take a more relaxed approach in discussions like this there would be room for joking and serious debate alike. As is, everyone on the forums seems a little uptight.

Stereotypes are defined by their context to society.
If you remove them from their context in that society, they cease to have meaning.

CCP has not defined high heels as being sexist in this game.
The presumption that this social context in our reality also exists inside the game goes too far.

You may as well say I pilot a raven in real life. Simply ridiculous to consider, although I might get through traffic faster...

This is a game.

While I might sympathize with someone else's real life associations to things, they should not be my burden or problem.
It would be more appropriate for her to leave her real life baggage at the door, and focus on playing EVE instead.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2012-08-24 17:30:47 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
I can understand where she's coming from though. There is a lot of stereotypical stuff flying around and I suppose CCP doing it too doesn't help. But yeah I think if everyone would take a more relaxed approach in discussions like this there would be room for joking and serious debate alike. As is, everyone on the forums seems a little uptight.

Stereotypes are defined by their context to society.
If you remove them from their context in that society, they cease to have meaning.

CCP has not defined high heels as being sexist in this game.
The presumption that this social context in our reality also exists inside the game goes too far.

You may as well say I pilot a raven in real life. Simply ridiculous to consider, although I might get through traffic faster...

This is a game.

While I might sympathize with someone else's real life associations to things, they should not be my burden or problem.
It would be more appropriate for her to leave her real life baggage at the door, and focus on playing EVE instead.


This is the kind of edgy post i was talking about. This woman is simply stating her concern about the fact that all women in the game must wear high healed shoes and you are talking as if her opinion has no merit or consequence. I'm not saying you cant voice your opinions as well (and in any case i obviously cant stop you) I'm just pointing out that there is too much condescension on the eve forums, and if people would show more respect to each other and bicker less maybe the Devs would listen more.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#120 - 2012-08-24 18:00:58 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
This is the kind of edgy post i was talking about. This woman is simply stating her concern about the fact that all women in the game must wear high healed shoes and you are talking as if her opinion has no merit or consequence. I'm not saying you cant voice your opinions as well (and in any case i obviously cant stop you) I'm just pointing out that there is too much condescension on the eve forums, and if people would show more respect to each other and bicker less maybe the Devs would listen more.

Not being edgy here, just blunt and to the point.
I am specifically avoiding making any assumptions, to be fair to her.

She is acting as if our character pictures mean something in the game, so far as what shoes we are wearing.
She is defining the shoes themselves as a type of label that demeans women.

I respect that in real life she has the right to stand up for herself, and socially reject standards for footwear that she finds offend her.

This is a game.

For all you know, I have clown shoes on in my picture.
Unless you make a female character, you probably have no idea what shoes we wear, or what other options we have.

That is my point.
I can't see the shoes having any affect, but I am willing to let her attempt to make her case, and listen when she does.

Why do I bother, you might ask?
She is only going on about shoes demeaning her... right?

Because frivolous content can be as demeaning as shoes, and I want her to look good.

For that, I need to feel like I can stand behind her on this.
Which means this has to make sense to me first.