These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#541 - 2012-11-26 01:37:55 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo.


That'd be an Incursus.



The Tristan problem and the Rifter problem seem to be similar. Both have a 3m/3l layout that makes them worse at brawling (also at kiting, ewar application and pretty much everything) than competitive ships, yet at the same time they lack raw damage / maneuverability / fitting options to make up for that.
Fitting options especially regarding the utility highslots that can often only barely be filled without gimping the desired fitting.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#542 - 2012-11-26 01:58:16 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo.


That'd be an Incursus.



The Tristan problem and the Rifter problem seem to be similar. Both have a 3m/3l layout that makes them worse at brawling (also at kiting, ewar application and pretty much everything) than competitive ships, yet at the same time they lack raw damage / maneuverability / fitting options to make up for that.
Fitting options especially regarding the utility highslots that can often only barely be filled without gimping the desired fitting.




Tristan problem is there's no reason to fly it over the incursus. So it can sort of apply a tiny amount of damage at range with drones to untackled targets, but for that it gets to be terrible at everything else. The frigs with utility highs are generally the bad ones, but I don't think that's the reason they are bad.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#543 - 2012-11-26 02:36:56 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo.


That'd be an Incursus.



The Tristan problem and the Rifter problem seem to be similar. Both have a 3m/3l layout that makes them worse at brawling (also at kiting, ewar application and pretty much everything) than competitive ships, yet at the same time they lack raw damage / maneuverability / fitting options to make up for that.
Fitting options especially regarding the utility highslots that can often only barely be filled without gimping the desired fitting.




How would that be an incursus? Does the fact that is has a Tracking bonus make it a Thorax?

The tristan having 4 lows of a tanking bonus would not make it an incursus.. Simply because it would still be almost entirely reliant on drones for dps.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#544 - 2012-11-26 04:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vayn Baxtor
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tristan would be good if it had 4 lows or a tanking bonus imo.


I'd be for tanking bonus (or even both).

I just find that Tristan, Rifter and similar frigates need some special attention.

Not to be shedding spotlight on what I mentioned about "T1.25", but I'd really love to see a sort of "Heavy Frigate" variant, just so they could be a nose-length ahead of the basic tackler/brawler types that took over.

edit:

I doubt it has to be that complicated with implementing new stuff. Focusing on the Rifter problem here.

From what i know, Rifter has two older sisters/brothers. Jaguar and Wolf.
Wolf is obviously the in your face type whereas the Jaguar is more of a versatile survivalist - Of course things will change once the AFs are up for tiercide.

Then there are of course the other combat frigs, which pretty much brought us to this discussion.

One side note and problem is that it looks like it is just the Rifter and the Tristan that have problems, not essentially the other two.

To me, it would be interesting to see Rifter and Tristan be heavier variants, just fit in somewhere just a tad above the other frigates.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#545 - 2012-11-26 06:42:56 UTC
Joanna Ramirez wrote:
Rick Rymes wrote:
i would like to point out that the new Kestrel.


You are seriously putting a target painter to help rockets hit better? Your right to comment on missile boats has been revoked.... Lol


No i like that right Cry

Its on there because i like the idea of hitting attack frigs for full damage, other than another web i was lost on what to use???
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#546 - 2012-11-26 06:52:19 UTC
What if you removed the tracking bonus, added an optimal range bonus and then gave it 3 turrets and more drone m3 for 2 full sets.

Maybe the the bad speed, bad ehp and missing slot will be justified.

P.S Adding a tank bonus is counter intuitive as its taken by the Incursus. also the Punisher needs love to (Que worshipers of the third midslot) P
FFKefka
#547 - 2012-11-26 10:02:44 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
FFKefka wrote:
Well, I've been struggling to figure out a fit that would make the Tristan work with its bonuses despite its fitting shortcomings and thought I would throw this out there to get an opinion on it. I used EFT but figured in the new CPU/PG of the ship.

[High slots]
150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
Core Probe Launcher II

[Mid slots]
Limited 1mn Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I

[Low slots]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

[Rigs]
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Drones]
5x Hobgoblin II
3x Warrior SW-300 (or light ECM's)



Highlighted part is really bad.

I tried that eve hangar site you linked and it doesn't have the updated stats for the tristan yet unless I missed something.

so... since I'm maxed out on CPU and you're saying the nanofibers are bad, are you suggesting I use a co-processor or something to get a DDA in there? I have the CCC's in there just so I have a stable tackle platform in order for allies to arrive, but I suppose it wouldn't take that long, so I will continue look into other options. the idea of the fit is for a small fleet to tackle larger ships and to provide anti-frig support (though I suppose I should use warriors for that, and/or find some insane way to boost drone speed despite being maxed out on CPU.) Most of my problems fitting anything to the ship lie in the fact it only gets 130 CPU whereas the others get 180 (before skills) Even if it were beefed up to 160 that would be a huge improvement.

Heh... all this talk of bonuses makes me think a sensor range bonus might be more beneficial over hybrid tracking for only 2 guns. (slightly joking...)

Death is the true way of life. For if there is no death, there is no life.

Remind your vegetarian friends that think eating meat is murder; eating plants kills them too. I'm not obsessed with death, it is obsessed with me.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#548 - 2012-11-26 11:05:51 UTC
Quote:
tried that eve hangar site you linked and it doesn't have the updated stats for the tristan yet unless I missed something.


https://null-sec.com/hangar/?evedb=test

It has to have the /?evedb=test at the end to load the duality database.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2012-11-26 11:23:01 UTC
Perhaps this...


[Tristan]

[High Slots]
150mm Railgun II - Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II - Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

[Med Slots]
1MN Microwarpdrive II
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

[Low Slots]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

[Rigs]
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I

[Drones]
Warrior II x 8
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2012-11-26 11:34:22 UTC
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
To me, it would be interesting to see Rifter and Tristan be heavier variants, just fit in somewhere just a tad above the other frigates.


Those are called Faction frigates. the Firetail is just a better Rifter, and although not as close, the Comet is just better hybrid of the Incursus and Tristan.

Not to mention Pirate frigates.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#551 - 2012-11-26 12:17:13 UTC
FFKefka wrote:
I tried that eve hangar site you linked and it doesn't have the updated stats for the tristan yet unless I missed something.

so... since I'm maxed out on CPU and you're saying the nanofibers are bad, are you suggesting I use a co-processor or something to get a DDA in there? I have the CCC's in there just so I have a stable tackle platform in order for allies to arrive, but I suppose it wouldn't take that long, so I will continue look into other options. the idea of the fit is for a small fleet to tackle larger ships and to provide anti-frig support (though I suppose I should use warriors for that, and/or find some insane way to boost drone speed despite being maxed out on CPU.) Most of my problems fitting anything to the ship lie in the fact it only gets 130 CPU whereas the others get 180 (before skills) Even if it were beefed up to 160 that would be a huge improvement.

Heh... all this talk of bonuses makes me think a sensor range bonus might be more beneficial over hybrid tracking for only 2 guns. (slightly joking...)

Start by downgrading the guns to 125mm or 75mm. Largest LR guns are not supposed to fit without fitting mod.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#552 - 2012-11-26 16:46:49 UTC
Rick Rymes wrote:
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
To me, it would be interesting to see Rifter and Tristan be heavier variants, just fit in somewhere just a tad above the other frigates.


Those are called Faction frigates. the Firetail is just a better Rifter, and although not as close, the Comet is just better hybrid of the Incursus and Tristan.

Not to mention Pirate frigates.


Might as well squeeze them in there somewhere, because I love the hulls. :D

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#553 - 2012-11-26 17:00:55 UTC
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
Might as well squeeze them in there somewhere, because I love the hulls. :D


I love them to, but being realistic will more likely get them changed. Asking to make them better than the others is just unfair and unbalanced What?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#554 - 2012-11-26 17:28:11 UTC
For the love of god, can somebody please post a decent Tristan fit with a damage control mod in the low?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#555 - 2012-11-26 17:47:32 UTC
My opinion:

The Minmatar frigate "problem" is simply this: they don't do anything quite well ENOUGH when compared to their opposition. The Slasher is probably the only one functioning correctly, but with the upcoming change to unbonused TDs this too will suffer a significant hit.

I would like to see the Rifter and Jaguar each doing a little bit more damage. Nothing significant, just a slight bump. Further, both need a slight increase in their base speed. Both the Rifter and Jag seem to be designed as generalist frigates, but in practice they often get eclipsed by more specialized frigates. They aren't the fastest, they aren't the tankiest, they do marginal dps, their weapons force them deep into scram range and there are no viable long range options.

The Wolf suffers similarly. As an Arty boat it is eclipsed by the rail Enyo and Harpy, and as a close range brawler it lacks the third midslot necessary for range control.

None of them are BAD frigates, but they could use a bit of help.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#556 - 2012-11-26 17:58:15 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
My opinion:

The Minmatar frigate "problem" is simply this: they don't do anything quite well ENOUGH when compared to their opposition. The Slasher is probably the only one functioning correctly, but with the upcoming change to unbonused TDs this too will suffer a significant hit.

I would like to see the Rifter and Jaguar each doing a little bit more damage. Nothing significant, just a slight bump. Further, both need a slight increase in their base speed. Both the Rifter and Jag seem to be designed as generalist frigates, but in practice they often get eclipsed by more specialized frigates. They aren't the fastest, they aren't the tankiest, they do marginal dps, their weapons force them deep into scram range and there are no viable long range options.

The Wolf suffers similarly. As an Arty boat it is eclipsed by the rail Enyo and Harpy, and as a close range brawler it lacks the third midslot necessary for range control.

None of them are BAD frigates, but they could use a bit of help.


The jack of all trades is dead, long live the year of specialized combat. I don't think speed is a problem, any more and the Rifter will be to much like the Attack frigates. More dps is a must tho, thought minmatar where meant to move fast and hit hard, has the speed down but where is the damage and the application of it. *Cough 4th turret cough cough falloff bonus cough*
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#557 - 2012-11-26 18:45:05 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Tristan problem is there's no reason to fly it over the incursus. So it can sort of apply a tiny amount of damage at range with drones to untackled targets, but for that it gets to be terrible at everything else. The frigs with utility highs are generally the bad ones, but I don't think that's the reason they are bad.

Tristan can launch drones and burn off outside of weapons range during a fleet fight and not get popped (something like 150 dps worth with two drone damage amplifiers). It can participate in fights without as much fear of e-war as the other Gallente frigs (resistance to jamming, tracking disruptors, neuts, etc...). This is important for fighting griffins and dual rsd frigates (Maulus, Caldari/Minmatar 4 midslot frigs), etc...

Its drones will still be vulnerable to smart bombs - which will be mounted on more and more ships as the effectiveness and number of drone ships fielded increase.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#558 - 2012-11-26 19:54:12 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
For the love of god, can somebody please post a decent Tristan fit with a damage control mod in the low?



If you're going to be demanding..


[Tristan, New Setup 1]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Small Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
[empty high slot]

Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x3



I find it underwhelming tbh, Would be better with -1 high +1 low imo

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#559 - 2012-11-26 20:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
I find this fit very interesting for solo work. Gonna be fun.

100 dps with hob II's. + 43 dps per light neutron blaster

[Tristan, Mini-Sentinel]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II/ Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/ Light Neutron Blaster II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/Light Nuetron Blaster II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I

Hobgoblin II x5

-----
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#560 - 2012-11-26 22:01:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
I find this fit very interesting for solo work. Gonna be fun.

100 dps with hob II's. + 43 dps per light neutron blaster

[Tristan, Mini-Sentinel]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II/ Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/ Light Neutron Blaster II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/Light Nuetron Blaster II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I

Hobgoblin II x5

-----


Yea i considered that, Its just that the range on neuts is balls.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish