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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#321 - 2012-08-28 11:22:57 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
serras bang wrote:
i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class

(tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...)


in general missle weapon systems includeing rockets generaly generate less dmg that other weapons systems and sensor damps ect still work against caldari ships ect. and tracking disrupters ect is aless of an issue with intercepter esk ships as they have to be so close andyway and if they are there mwd's and afterburners will become a lot less of a factore due to webs and jammers.
Lili Lu
#322 - 2012-08-28 13:33:06 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
serras bang wrote:
remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth

I think you have it a bit wrong: It goes: T1 - Navy - Caldari T1 - Pirate - Caldar Navy Big smile

Caldari frigs are really strong. All those midslots... With each reblance, the Caldari frig lineup gets stronger.
Hookbill top of its class.
Merliin top of its class.
Condor top of its class.


This pretty much. Add to that sniping cormorants and blapping thrashers. It is all just part of the kiting shield missile or range bonused ship supremacy we are seeing at all levels of pvp. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 Thrasher and Merlin in the top 20. (and look at them Drakes, again Ugh). You don't often see a tech I frigate in the top 20. That alone says a lot. The game is seriously Caldari and Minmatar Online, and has been for a while.

The rebalancing is not fixing any of this, and as XGallentius is pointing out it is making it worse. Fozzie correctly identifies the problem as not based in the ship bonuses alone. However, the new ship bonuses are synergizing all too well with the existing (and new, asb lol) module imbalances to promote shield, kiting, and missiles or range bonused guns.

The way CCP can address this is to move quickly on eliminating or strongly reducing the mobility and speed penalties on armor mods and rigs. They can fix the pre-nerfed AAH and pre-op'd ASB. They can put in game the anti-missile affects (particularly range) for TDs. And they can start handing out range bonuses to ships other than Caldari, or at least fittings that allow ranged guns (see lol Catalyst) for other races.
Lili Lu
#323 - 2012-08-28 13:54:15 UTC
serras bang wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
serras bang wrote:
i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class

(tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...)


in general missle weapon systems includeing rockets generaly generate less dmg that other weapons systems and sensor damps ect still work against caldari ships ect. and tracking disrupters ect is aless of an issue with intercepter esk ships as they have to be so close andyway and if they are there mwd's and afterburners will become a lot less of a factore due to webs and jammers.


You appear not to understand that TDs and neuts are used against all the other frigs in competition with the Condor. So your argument is flawed for ignoring that there is no difference between what can/is applied to these ships by opponents. As for missile weapon systems they are blessed with range benefits over guns. Especially with range bonuses rockets do not force the fight at point blank only option that is the only choice for blaster fit ships.

Ok so you say, there is no problem, you all just need to learn to use damps, webs, and jammers? None of those are specific counters to the Caldari range bonused ships. They are pretty much used against everyone, except maybe damps. Damps would be a usable counter to kiting. However, damps eat a lot of cap and cpu though, in addition to a mid. None of which are in great supply for "armor" and short-ranged gun frigs. Those mids get filled with pointing mod and web so that if they can catch something they can hold it to bring the high damage short range guns into the action.

Went looking for your killboard stats to get some idea of your combat experience. http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1189998 .
"If you see no data, a cronjob has been submitted to calculate your monthly values. Please come back in a few minutes.
Thank you for your patience." Considering that you were born in 2011 I'm not expecting that the 0 kills and 0 losses will change much as I wait for the cronjob. If you are going to post opinion here do it with a character with which you fight or have fought. Otherwise your opinion is frankly not worth much.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2012-08-28 15:32:32 UTC
I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.

I have started seeing number of condors lately, even lost my rail cat to one, tracking disrupters seem very common and almost all Hookbills have one if not two. Proposed kestrel could also end up being very dangerous.

Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#325 - 2012-08-28 17:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.

Merlin has much larger engagement envelope than Incursus. Incursus, due to repping is limited to fights against very small numbers. Merlin is scalable from solo to fleet because of its huge tank and dps.


BTW, the devs have stated that the Tristan is a small gang ship that does not scale well with numbers. So Gallente are left with one ship - the Atron that is effective in numbers. In the future I hope the devs combine active reps and drone boats like with the Myrm, and turn the turret hulls like the Thorax/Brutix/Hyperion into legit gang ships.
Quote:
...
Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.

So... many... midslots. They can fit all the e-war they need. Control range AND TD, not control range OR TD.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#326 - 2012-08-28 17:46:14 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
serras bang wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
serras bang wrote:
i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class

(tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...)


in general missle weapon systems includeing rockets generaly generate less dmg that other weapons systems and sensor damps ect still work against caldari ships ect. and tracking disrupters ect is aless of an issue with intercepter esk ships as they have to be so close andyway and if they are there mwd's and afterburners will become a lot less of a factore due to webs and jammers.


You appear not to understand that TDs and neuts are used against all the other frigs in competition with the Condor. So your argument is flawed for ignoring that there is no difference between what can/is applied to these ships by opponents. As for missile weapon systems they are blessed with range benefits over guns. Especially with range bonuses rockets do not force the fight at point blank only option that is the only choice for blaster fit ships.

Ok so you say, there is no problem, you all just need to learn to use damps, webs, and jammers? None of those are specific counters to the Caldari range bonused ships. They are pretty much used against everyone, except maybe damps. Damps would be a usable counter to kiting. However, damps eat a lot of cap and cpu though, in addition to a mid. None of which are in great supply for "armor" and short-ranged gun frigs. Those mids get filled with pointing mod and web so that if they can catch something they can hold it to bring the high damage short range guns into the action.

Went looking for your killboard stats to get some idea of your combat experience. http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1189998 .
"If you see no data, a cronjob has been submitted to calculate your monthly values. Please come back in a few minutes.
Thank you for your patience." Considering that you were born in 2011 I'm not expecting that the 0 kills and 0 losses will change much as I wait for the cronjob. If you are going to post opinion here do it with a character with which you fight or have fought. Otherwise your opinion is frankly not worth much.


if your talking to me liu your right i have limited pvp experience even on my main char and no i wont divulge my main chracter as i like it haveing a relatively relaxed life i dont care much for pvp as my mear 20 mill sp means i get munched 90% of the time.

as you have brought it up however condors will still need to fit some kinda shielding as i said the condor lacks speed and needs to be within the brawl deadly range of guns most of the time to use prop jammers. but aint i also right in saying auto's and atilary dont relly on cap either yet you guys are specificaly going after the caldari ships.

this however being said with mwd a web and possibly a waarp jammer/ scrambler will leave what 1 open mid slot to fit a shield a small shield extender most likely wont take much to get through yet other ships will be able to fill all 3 or 4 mis slots with there support moduals and then fursther procead to dec out there low slots with tank not a dmg mod to help them along a lil.

if you wish to continue this lil chat and you prolly will repost and tell me im wrong and give decent reasons instead of oh but missles or mid slots as it wont wash as ive just pointed out.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#327 - 2012-08-28 19:13:11 UTC
serras bang wrote:


if your talking to me liu your right i have limited pvp experience even on my main char and no i wont divulge my main chracter as i like it haveing a relatively relaxed life i dont care much for pvp as my mear 20 mill sp means i get munched 90% of the time.

as you have brought it up however condors will still need to fit some kinda shielding as i said the condor lacks speed and needs to be within the brawl deadly range of guns most of the time to use prop jammers. but aint i also right in saying auto's and atilary dont relly on cap either yet you guys are specificaly going after the caldari ships.

this however being said with mwd a web and possibly a waarp jammer/ scrambler will leave what 1 open mid slot to fit a shield a small shield extender most likely wont take much to get through yet other ships will be able to fill all 3 or 4 mis slots with there support moduals and then fursther procead to dec out there low slots with tank not a dmg mod to help them along a lil.

if you wish to continue this lil chat and you prolly will repost and tell me im wrong and give decent reasons instead of oh but missles or mid slots as it wont wash as ive just pointed out.


The condor is very good for stupid kitey ****.. and its really quite fast compared to most frigs, just a bit slower than the other attack frigs..

And well.. just basically everything you just said is either wrong or really full of BAD.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#328 - 2012-08-28 20:57:25 UTC
sonsor damp would destroy a condor 90% of the time naugh said.
Lili Lu
#329 - 2012-08-28 21:10:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
serras bang wrote:
if your talking to me liu your right i have limited pvp experience even on my main char and no i wont divulge my main chracter as i like it haveing a relatively relaxed life i dont care much for pvp as my mear 20 mill sp means i get munched 90% of the time.

Noone is going to come after you for posting. Only the most misserable downtroden nerd would come after you in-game for posting your opinions here. Ok, come to think of it, it could happenP. Anyway, I pvp on characters with much less sp than Lili atm. And they have less than 20mil sp. All I'm saying is if you post with your character that has some pvp experience it will carry more weight. As for getting munched, it happens, there's always a bigger, or smarter, or more agile fish . .

serras bang wrote:
as you have brought it up however condors will still need to fit some kinda shielding as i said the condor lacks speed and needs to be within the brawl deadly range of guns most of the time to use prop jammers. but aint i also right in saying auto's and atilary dont relly on cap either yet you guys are specificaly going after the caldari ships.

this however being said with mwd a web and possibly a waarp jammer/ scrambler will leave what 1 open mid slot to fit a shield a small shield extender most likely wont take much to get through yet other ships will be able to fill all 3 or 4 mis slots with there support moduals and then fursther procead to dec out there low slots with tank not a dmg mod to help them along a lil.

None of the tech I interceptor class frigates can sport a meaningful tank other than their speed. The Condor's speed (400) is only 10 less than the executioner, 20 less than atron, 30 less than slasher. Trully not a big deal.

They are all subject to neuts and damps. A condor's missiles and the slashers projectile guns can at least keep firing at drones or whatever even if they are neuted out. The other two are toothless if neuted out. And if you've been following the thread you will notice that an extender may be eschewed in favor of a TD in the fourth mid. That is a luxury that the 4 mid frigs have over 3 mid frigs. Also, do your really think an "armor" tank is any better on these ships? It isn't. If active it's less powerful than a shield booster, and if buffer the penalties work directly against what these ships are supposed to have, speed and agility.

serras bang wrote:
if you wish to continue this lil chat and you prolly will repost and tell me im wrong and give decent reasons instead of oh but missles or mid slots as it wont wash as ive just pointed out.

Yes, I have pointed out your misconceptions and provided reasons. Again I think you lack depth and breadth of experience. XGallentius is correct in his ordering of relative strength that has come about with the beginning of ship rebalancing. Caldari is getting all the benefits. This will have to change.
Lili Lu
#330 - 2012-08-28 21:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.

I have started seeing number of condors lately, even lost my rail cat to one, tracking disrupters seem very common and almost all Hookbills have one if not two. Proposed kestrel could also end up being very dangerous.

Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.

This is another reason why the suggestion in the disruption frigates thread that the non-ecm modules actually should get a little nerf and the specialized non-ecm ships then a larger bonus is a good idea. It worked with ecm. No longer is everyone fitting the multispec of death. It worked with nos as well.

If TDs (and the other non-ecm ewar modules) got a nerf it would lessen the impact of the spare 4th mid fit a TD and you can **** over the other ships in class phenomenon. As long as the specialized ships still gain over current values for that ewar it fixes two problems at once.

Also, they need to get a range cutting effect for TDs as against missiles into the game. It has been proposed by the devs. They actually put a change onto the test server for TDs to affect explosion parameters of missiles. But then pulled it. To me the range advantages of missiles are what really needs addressing and I really don't see why they floated the change they did.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#331 - 2012-08-28 22:43:15 UTC
oh i know you lern more through defeat that victory ive always said that. :P and yeah i can hold my own against a lot of oponents but ide prefer to keep my pvp to a time of my choseing in low or null sec not everyone tom **** and harry trying to gank me when im chilling.

trying to fit an active shield tank onto a condor or any frigate is a job and a half i havent however been on sisi recently to cheack out the new ones however im still going with the point of probably cap hungry witch makes them extream diffucult to fit with other cap sucking abilities even with an asb i dont think you would last the reload if in a brawl fight. also as im sure we all know that after a caldaries shield is down there toast unlike an armour tanker were they can still sustain a fair amount of punishment especialy to kinetic missles.

as you said the condor is the slowest and the heaviest of the ships witch makes it after getting into point range diffucult to dictate range. and the caldari weapons systems do not increase dmg bassed on an optimal range.

again though i find this point and a td to be less of an issue as tds are not a gurante disruption and if they are they are the problem not the caldari ships maybe td's should be called into question and there effectiveness over caldari ships. as close range guns will generate more dps than even rocket launchers. infact the only way i have ever managed to win against a brawler is to pull extream range on it from the start and hopefull put him into half armour before he gets to me again you may disagre but i still stand that unless the caldari ships can fit decent tanks they will be baten 90% of the time by brawlers.

however over and above all this i do have to say your missing a big point eve isnt just all about pvp although that may be a big part and the life of a lot in eve its not the be all and end all these ships still have to be usable as mission running ships also.

hope this makes my opinions a lil clearer to you lili lu
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#332 - 2012-08-28 22:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: serras bang
Lili Lu wrote:
[quote=Alticus C Bear] But then pulled it. To me the range advantages of missiles are what really needs addressing and I really don't see why they floated the change they did.


ide be all up for shaveing some range of missles or better still not giveing missles many flighttime bonusses as 45k or so at max or near max skill standard for lights is enough and 80k for heavys is enoughi will say however if that happens then missles need a blanket 5% dmg buff minimal.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#333 - 2012-08-29 01:22:19 UTC
serras bang wrote:
!1. oh i know you lern more through defeat that victory ive always said that. :P and yeah i can hold my own against a lot of oponents but ide prefer to keep my pvp to a time of my choseing in low or null sec not everyone tom **** and harry trying to gank me when im chilling.

2. trying to fit an active shield tank onto a condor or any frigate is a job and a half i havent however been on sisi recently to cheack out the new ones however im still going with the point of probably cap hungry witch makes them extream diffucult to fit with other cap sucking abilities even with an asb i dont think you would last the reload if in a brawl fight. also as im sure we all know that after a caldaries shield is down there toast unlike an armour tanker were they can still sustain a fair amount of punishment especialy to kinetic missles.

3.as you said the condor is the slowest and the heaviest of the ships witch makes it after getting into point range diffucult to dictate range. and the caldari weapons systems do not increase dmg bassed on an optimal range.

4. again though i find this point and a td to be less of an issue as tds are not a gurante disruption and if they are they are the problem not the caldari ships maybe td's should be called into question and there effectiveness over caldari ships. as close range guns will generate more dps than even rocket launchers. infact the only way i have ever managed to win against a brawler is to pull extream range on it from the start and hopefull put him into half armour before he gets to me again you may disagre but i still stand that unless the caldari ships can fit decent tanks they will be baten 90% of the time by brawlers.

5. however over and above all this i do have to say your missing a big point eve isnt just all about pvp although that may be a big part and the life of a lot in eve its not the be all and end all these ships still have to be usable as mission running ships also.

hope this makes my opinions a lil clearer to you lili lu


1. People trying to gank you is half the fun ^^
2. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here? You're not making all that much sense. You seem to be worrying about the tank and cap of the condor? Tank wise its about the same as the other attack frigs and cap wise its better due to the fact that it doesn't need cap to pew..
3. The condor one of the fastest frigs in the game, and with four mids it has extremely good control of the fight. If you're having problems with range its your failing not the ships.
4. Again i am not certain what you're trying to say.. But it sounds like you're saying that TD's don't always work? Which is wrong..
5. The big point of eve is that even if you don't want to pvp you can be prey to those who do ^^ And no not all ships need to be good pve ships, thats just silly.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#334 - 2012-08-29 01:26:46 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.

I have started seeing number of condors lately, even lost my rail cat to one, tracking disrupters seem very common and almost all Hookbills have one if not two. Proposed kestrel could also end up being very dangerous.

Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.



i think the answer to the condor is the tristan...

all those wonderful scout drones with tracking bonus...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2012-08-29 09:03:55 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
This is another reason why the suggestion in the disruption frigates thread that the non-ecm modules actually should get a little nerf and the specialized non-ecm ships then a larger bonus is a good idea. It worked with ecm. No longer is everyone fitting the multispec of death. It worked with nos as well.

If TDs (and the other non-ecm ewar modules) got a nerf it would lessen the impact of the spare 4th mid fit a TD and you can **** over the other ships in class phenomenon. As long as the specialized ships still gain over current values for that ewar it fixes two problems at once.

Also, they need to get a range cutting effect for TDs as against missiles into the game. It has been proposed by the devs. They actually put a change onto the test server for TDs to affect explosion parameters of missiles. But then pulled it. To me the range advantages of missiles are what really needs addressing and I really don't see why they floated the change they did.



I disagree. The use of EWAR modules on non-EWAR bonused ships should always be an option. They should always be useful to some degree and not be only useful on EWAR ships. We have counters for (almost) everything in this game. The problem is that some don't really work.

ECM - Counter = ECCM and Remote ECCM. It works. Get over it.

Sensor Damps - Counter = SeBos and Remote SeBos. SD's are too weak at the moment. This is known

Tracking Disruptors - Counter = Tracking Computer & Tracking Links. It pretty much works however TC's and TL's are a little weak.

Target Painters - No real counter

Missiles - Counter = Defenders (lol) which don't work. Either these need to be fixed or we need a new counter. I don't think TD's should be used as a be all and end all module. We need something else like a chaff & flare launcher. If we had a Chaff and Flare launcher that reduced signature radius it would be a counter to target painting. It would also have a slight tracking disruptor effect however it could be easily balanced out or perhaps only effect missiles.

The bottom line is that EWAR should be an option on any ship. Things shouldn't become restricted in this game. The freedom is what we love about this game and the fact that you can, if you want, build an "Armour ECM Drake" (I've seen it used and it works somehow!) you have that option
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2012-08-29 10:30:58 UTC
The only thing i could pretend to call a counter to target painters would be an afterbuner.
My reasoning is they double the speed of the ship (+135% velocity) without altering the ships sig radius, that should be sufficient to offset the tp.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#337 - 2012-08-29 10:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rick Rymes
If i was to balance the Tristan it would look like this.

Tristan:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level
10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 4 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2)
Fittings: 38 PWG, 130 CPU (+5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+24) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1006000 / 3.56s (-0.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 25 (+20)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-1)
Cargo capacity: 140
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2012-08-29 13:03:09 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The only thing i could pretend to call a counter to target painters would be an afterbuner.
My reasoning is they double the speed of the ship (+135% velocity) without altering the ships sig radius, that should be sufficient to offset the tp.



I would have called the AB the counter to Webs as they both effect speed.

Also, increasing your own speed usually has a detrimental effect on your own tracking (ignor missile boats). Other EWAR counters simply just counter the effect of the EWAR.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#339 - 2012-08-29 15:09:02 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
!5. The big point of eve is that even if you don't want to pvp you can be prey to those who do ^^ And no not all ships need to be good pve ships, thats just silly.


never did say all ships have to be usable as pve but most do have to suport it. you all crack on about ships being to good at pvp ect but you never once think about the pve impact such as 100 mn tengu witch isnt siutable for a mission fit and reduceiing the likes of cpu would actively hurt the tengu mission fit. persides i maybe missing something but trying to fit a 100 mn onto a tengu means your discarding a lot of other things i could be missing something as i said.

as for your other point if i wish to pvp i will go into low or null sec when im on eve on most days all i wanna do is chill run missions make some isk and have a chat with others i see no harm in that so the last thing i want or need is someone trying to gank me.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2012-08-29 15:13:04 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The only thing i could pretend to call a counter to target painters would be an afterbuner.
My reasoning is they double the speed of the ship (+135% velocity) without altering the ships sig radius, that should be sufficient to offset the tp.



I would have called the AB the counter to Webs as they both effect speed.

Also, increasing your own speed usually has a detrimental effect on your own tracking (ignor missile boats). Other EWAR counters simply just counter the effect of the EWAR.

In the tracking formula (transversital)velocity proportional to the sign radius of the target ship.
As far as you own tracking, I was tracking just fine in my catalyst with an AB using a web my self

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.