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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Lili Lu
#301 - 2012-08-22 21:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills.


Other frigates also need L5 skills. They need one of Small Energy Turret, Small Projectile Turret, or Small Hybrid Turret.

If the new Tristan is fine otherwise (or fine enough that you make this small change), then the ship is fine otherwise but the skills suck. Why not separately fix the skills? Like, refund SP for levels of Drone Interfacing and then build it back into base drone stats. Other weapons start out at 'meh' and then pile on incremental buffs; drones start out at 'terrible' and then get a +100% bonus from one skill.

After all, there are already other rookie-accessible drone boats in the game, like the new Crucifier, like the new exploration frigs, like TQ's Arbitrator and Vexor.

In the meantime you have +1 drone boat for players who already have the skills but also have use for frigates, and you can steer new people towards the Incursus.

The problem with the Tristan is it requires 3 level 5 skills to use t2 weapons.
Drones V
Scout Drone Operation v
Small Hybrid Turrets V
The rest only require there own small weapon skill to V, and as was pointed out you need Drones V to train Drone Interfacing

I could support the 20 bandwidth and 5% drone damage bonus idea as long as it gets: 1) some more cpu (for drone mods or rigs); 2) its missing (mid or low) slot; 3) less sig than a kestral; and 4) more speed than a kestrel. Seriously if CCP wants to short this ship a slot as against the others in its class short it a high. Make it 2H, 3M, 4L or 2-4-3.

With a drone damage bonus really who cares about the guns. You could fit a DLA and a neut or gun and that would be sufficient. The ship needs another mid or low slot more than a high slot. But it also needs more CPU and speed. It should not be the slowest and most bloated in class such that it will just be kiting fodder for a kestrel to stay out of scram/web with ease and kill its drones.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2012-08-22 22:16:26 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
So people have been talking about how this Tristan requires a fair bit more SP to be trained than the other ships. I think this is a fair point and could quite easily be remidied. If we dropped the drone bandwidth to 20 (4 lights) and swapped the 7.5% Hybrid tracking bonus for a 5% drone damage bonus we end up with a fairly pure drone boat that doesn't require any level 5 skills.


Other frigates also need L5 skills. They need one of Small Energy Turret, Small Projectile Turret, or Small Hybrid Turret.

If the new Tristan is fine otherwise (or fine enough that you make this small change), then the ship is fine otherwise but the skills suck. Why not separately fix the skills? Like, refund SP for levels of Drone Interfacing and then build it back into base drone stats. Other weapons start out at 'meh' and then pile on incremental buffs; drones start out at 'terrible' and then get a +100% bonus from one skill.

After all, there are already other rookie-accessible drone boats in the game, like the new Crucifier, like the new exploration frigs, like TQ's Arbitrator and Vexor.

In the meantime you have +1 drone boat for players who already have the skills but also have use for frigates, and you can steer new people towards the Incursus.

The problem with the Tristan is it requires 3 level 5 skills to use t2 weapons.
Drones V
Scout Drone Operation v
Small Hybrid Turrets V
The rest only require there own small weapon skill to V, and as was pointed out you need Drones V to train Drone Interfacing

I could support the 20 bandwidth and 5% drone damage bonus idea as long as it gets: 1) some more cpu (for drone mods or rigs); 2) its missing (mid or low) slot; 3) less sig than a kestral; and 4) more speed than a kestrel. Seriously if CCP wants to short this ship a slot as against the others in its class short it a high. Make it 2H, 3M, 4L or 2-4-3.

With a drone damage bonus really who cares about the guns. You could fit a DLA and a neut or gun and that would be sufficient. The ship needs another mid or low slot more than a high slot. But it also needs more CPU and speed. It should not be the slowest and most bloated in class such that it will just be kiting fodder for a kestrel to stay out of scram/web with ease and kill its drones.

I would like to see the extra low slot and maybe 20 extra cpu (im not sure it this would be too much or too little) then players would at least have a choice, tank, gank, speed, align time, so on so forth.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#303 - 2012-08-23 17:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterNick
With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.

EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2012-08-23 18:21:32 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.

EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one.

The damage bonus would be needed to set up the tristan as a 4 drone ship, this was proposed to reduce the amount of sp needed to fly it.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#305 - 2012-08-23 18:30:59 UTC
SP are irrelevant. Some ships are more skill intensive than other to fly, that's the way of things. As I said, old Tristan was a lot harder to fly, SP wise, than the incursus ; moreover, it used missiles, which completely worthless for a gallente pilot, and no one ever complained about it. You can always consider than using 4 drones is like using meta turret. Comparing drones and turret in term of skill is like comparing turret with missiles : it's irrelevant. I don't understand this moan about drones SP. Things don't need to all be the same.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2012-08-23 18:53:08 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
SP are irrelevant. Some ships are more skill intensive than other to fly, that's the way of things. As I said, old Tristan was a lot harder to fly, SP wise, than the incursus ; moreover, it used missiles, which completely worthless for a gallente pilot, and no one ever complained about it. You can always consider than using 4 drones is like using meta turret. Comparing drones and turret in term of skill is like comparing turret with missiles : it's irrelevant. I don't understand this moan about drones SP. Things don't need to all be the same.

Being as there ships are target toward noobs as they are T1 Frigates, yes SP is quite relevant

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Clair Kado
Doomheim
#307 - 2012-08-23 19:56:12 UTC
I love the tristan....very nice.
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#308 - 2012-08-24 00:39:18 UTC
Wow, thank you for the fun ships.
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#309 - 2012-08-25 07:03:56 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.

EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one.



Actually the Ishkur does get a drone damage bonus

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage
10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level

Also If CCP is going to do this I'd rather have the full flight of drones so leave the bandwidth at 25 please.

Be polite.

Be professional.

But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Martin0
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#310 - 2012-08-25 10:18:33 UTC
Noslen Nosilla wrote:
MisterNick wrote:
With this balance I might actually consider using the Tristan over the Incursus occasionally.

EDIT: A drone damage bonus would be crazy, the Ishkur doesn't even get one.



Actually the Ishkur does get a drone damage bonus

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage
10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level

Also If CCP is going to do this I'd rather have the full flight of drones so leave the bandwidth at 25 please.


Drone Hitpoints means drone HP, not DAMAGE, the ishkur drones have NO damage bonus.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#311 - 2012-08-26 20:00:55 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie

Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.


Its a perfectly good bonus. Particularly on hulls that cant really fit a cap booster.



no it isn't. It isn't a gunnery bonus...it is a meta-gunnery bonus. It helps the weapon function but does not increase its performance vs other ships. Heck it doesn't even help versus neut pressure.

Rebalancing energy turret cap use to be in-line with blasters/rails is advisable, tweak cap recharge and amount appropriately and give Amarr ships proper gunnery bonii like tracking...which lasers should do well but currently do not.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#312 - 2012-08-27 08:37:35 UTC
Personaly I'm not so fond of the range bonus on the Kestrel.

This will make it an excelent rocket ship and a meh light missile ship, and I personaly think the caldari frigate line has enough excelent rocket ships.


and is this tristan update not technicly making the Worm utter useless?
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#313 - 2012-08-27 15:23:57 UTC
remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#314 - 2012-08-27 15:52:20 UTC
serras bang wrote:
remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth

I think you have it a bit wrong: It goes: T1 - Navy - Caldari T1 - Pirate - Caldar Navy Big smile

Caldari frigs are really strong. All those midslots... With each reblance, the Caldari frig lineup gets stronger.
Hookbill top of its class.
Merliin top of its class.
Condor top of its class.

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#315 - 2012-08-27 15:58:37 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
and is this tristan update not technicly making the Worm utter useless?


Not at all.

The Worm has been utterly useless from day 1. And to think that CCP thought it was balanced with the Dramiel...
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2012-08-27 20:51:57 UTC
I personally think the Tristan should be more closely resembling it's Stealth Bomber T2 Variant instead of putting emphasis on drone skills. The drone stuff is nice, since there's not a T1 frigate that really has anything regarding them, but it's going to be weird for new players to focus on the Tristan as their chosen type then realizing the Nemesis isn't congruent with that pathway..

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#317 - 2012-08-27 22:59:40 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
serras bang wrote:
remmember way they have lined it up t1 - navy - pirate is order of stregnth

I think you have it a bit wrong: It goes: T1 - Navy - Caldari T1 - Pirate - Caldar Navy Big smile

Caldari frigs are really strong. All those midslots... With each reblance, the Caldari frig lineup gets stronger.
Hookbill top of its class.
Merliin top of its class.
Condor top of its class.



i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class its the slowest heaviest ship out there and rellys on rockets witch means it cant stay at range to use missles cause it aint got the speed, it cant come in close cause it gets munched on shields ect but its also forced into close range due to its webs ect in the first place i do have to disagree on that and the hookbill has the same bonusses as its counterparts atm witch we will see how they bugger that up ( in my opinion).

as for the merlin i cant say as i dont use guns atm. but thats 3 out of what 7 - 8 i cant remmember and only after the rebalancing has this been the case gotta remmember the weapons systems i.e rockets and missles are lower in dmg that most others weapons systems especialy were brawling are.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#318 - 2012-08-27 23:21:33 UTC
serras bang wrote:
i have to disagree the condor is nowere near top of its class

(tracking disruptor against turret hulls, capless weapons system, neuts, etc...)
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#319 - 2012-08-27 23:51:53 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
I personally think the Tristan should be more closely resembling it's Stealth Bomber T2 Variant instead of putting emphasis on drone skills. The drone stuff is nice, since there's not a T1 frigate that really has anything regarding them, but it's going to be weird for new players to focus on the Tristan as their chosen type then realizing the Nemesis isn't congruent with that pathway..


One of the reasons why I wish there would be some T1 subsystem concept after all.

There are so many fun things the Tristan could be and many feel they are being forced into something. "Don't like it, don't fly it" doesn't work here, because it is the hull/design people like too. :/

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Oraac Ensor
#320 - 2012-08-28 11:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Dear CCP Fozzie,

Please, please, please, please, please reconsider your choice of hulls for the new Gallente frigate roles.

Your spec for the drone boat is fine, but please apply it to the Navitas hull, not the Tristan. This has at least two advantages:

1. As already stated by others, the Navitas shares an organic/aquatic appearance in common with the existing Gallente drone boats. The Tristan does not and looks more like a mechwarrior than anything else.

2. The Navitas hull has two sensibly-positioned turret hardpoints. The Tristan does not and looks distinctly odd when fitted with any sort of turret.

On the other hand, the slight redesign of the Tristan seen briefly at Fanfest looks a bit like a shield, which to me seems rather appropriate for a logi.