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Barge Fairy Tale

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Author
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#1721 - 2012-07-28 16:46:37 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

those who unsub because they can't stand getting ~griefed~ will unsub for some other reason

this game is not for everyone

Right. And when CCP tallies the votes (aka subs,) who do you think has a bigger voice? The high-sec gankers? Or the high-sec miners? I think it's pretty obvious that CCP values the miners' concerns over the high-sec gankers' concerns.

The real question is: will the high-sec gankers unsub over the mining ship changes? Because, you know, this game isn't for everyone.


The HS gankers include a large portion of low sec folks, null sec folks, and HS folks. Remember, a lot of gankers are alts.
Boober Fraggle
#1722 - 2012-07-28 16:46:44 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Herr Wilkus, I'm too lazy to log in all my accounts to give you +likes, but pretend you just got a heap of them. Not only for the OP, replies was made of win as well. P

See, that's the problem. People who suicide gank high-sec miners are the laziest PvP'ers. Now that it is no longer so easy to gank high-sec miners, gankers find it easier to whine on the forums instead of actually learning to PvP.




A zero and seven PvPer calling me lazy? Fuckin insulting.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1723 - 2012-07-28 16:53:14 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Saying that they are homogenizing mining ships doesn't make it so. They are doing the opposite of what you suggest.


Saying that they are not homogenizing mining ships doesn't make it so. They are doing the opposite of what you suggest. Oh look I can make a blatant statement without proof too.

Numbers have already been posted for you refuting you claim of homogenization.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1724 - 2012-07-28 16:54:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Misanth wrote:


No, the problem was two folded, part CCP's and part miners fault.
* Miner fault - they used the most expensive ship in the game, untanked, and then got supermad they lost so much pixels in their "safe" space. They could've used a more reasonable alternative, but they refuse to and just flat out only want to use the ship that has the best mining yield. Mentality issue.
* CCP's fault - for not having a good step between the Hulk and the low-end mining ships. If the barges had a bit boosted yield, and the step wasn't so far to the Hulk.. this would've been alot less of an issue.

I agree with you that the price difference between a Hulk and a gankers loss was completely off, but that was not the gankers fault. Miners put themselves into this position, and you know what, they will do again in these new ships (go untanked, for max yield). This will not change unless there's a reasonably cheap alternative with very close to the same yield as the top end mining vessel. Irony is, the fact that people use endgame ships (essentially, Hulks is the capital/supercapital of mining, it's The Max yield ship), that are/should be expensive, and then feel it cost too much to lose just show they have wrong mentality to begin with. Imagine if I would ask the same for my supercapitals. Hey, I want to be able to fly them in level fours in highsec, under protection of CONCORD! It is actually what miners were requesting.


MMOs reflect the real world in many wicked ways. One of them is the kind of player playing it.

You have the top alpha male on one side, if it was for him, all would be hard core and a matter of domination and proof of his masculine hormones overabundance. They are relatively rare. They often are extremely accomplished people in RL as well, maybe retired already and can dedicate tons of time to the game. They also achieve ten time more per unit of time than others.

Then there's a plethora of "more calm water" players with various degrees of committment, endurance, ability to form their own objectives (something quite needed for a sandbox game). They are still quite rare, they are the free minds, often in alliance or harsh conflict with the above. Some of them entertrain into more or less wicked manipulations both of the markets and of the other people listed below. Some of them are cheaters, awoxers etc.

Then there's the "populace", who "just want to live and let leave", who "just want to do their honest job", "just work hard and feed the family". They need their hands driven by somebody else, they are easily used and manipulated, they are the honest tax payers. Not because they are inherently good, but because they were manipulated into being honest and into believing in "the State", in "the Good Values" and other similar mass sociology brain washing.
This is where the tens of millions subscribers are, they are the sheep, the material to be used and abused by those in command. Many of them are very mediocre players (which does not mean they are necessarily "casual") but they form "zergs" and generally meatshield to sacrifice (I am trespassing into Machiavelli now).

At the base of the above are the subsidized, the welfare people. They will indeed think they have to buy the best expensive product (Hulk) and an iPad, because "you are cool and elite with them". They just cannot be self sufficient, the (European) State provide them with the basic life needed things in exchange for their life and sweat.
We have whole subsidized categories in RL, I won't mention any because the last time I got flamed to the ground for speaking the cold truths.
They are predictable and go after blind guides adoption (see the 0.0 Halada's miners guide deadspace fitting used in hi sec Hulks!).
You simply cannot demand those guys will smarten up, they just can't. They may be amiable persons, good workers, friends but they just won't walk the extra mile, they are the anti-emergent player.

MMO companies for their own survival rely on all sorts of players with varying degrees of composition.

EvE relied on the first two kinds for some years and this made EvE of a niche MMO.
But then, 5000 players were not enough to grant the game continued expansion and improvement.

So, CCP opened the doors for the other kind of players.


So, you have to sort of deal with it.
The latter players are simply not able to walk the extra mile some in this thread demand them to.
This is why CCP are creating "canned content" for them.
The only ways to keep those players is to WoW-ify the game a little in order to tangibly scale up the subs numbers.
Or to educate them, but this is extremely hard, it's a process that takes years and is extremely, harshly and sometimes punished with RL death, because strong RL powers WANT to have unwashed masses to control, drive and feed onto.

Imagine what would happen if suddenly, the honest tax payers, the family fathers woke up and started thinking.


3/10

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1725 - 2012-07-28 16:56:13 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
How does one learn how to shoot another player besides actually shooting another player?


For example Red vs Blue.


What has EVE come to when someone has to actually join a corp to learn how to target another player & press F1?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1726 - 2012-07-28 16:58:44 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:


Saying that they are homogenizing mining ships doesn't make it so. They are doing the opposite of what you suggest.


Saying that they are not homogenizing mining ships doesn't make it so. They are doing the opposite of what you suggest. Oh look I can make a blatant statement without proof too.


And?

Saying they are homogenizing mining ships still does not make it so. They are homogenized now if you mine for more than a few months...because then you'll have trained to be either in a hulk, or mining ice in a mack. That seems pretty homogenized. Quit posting numbers and put together a better synthesis of all the aspects of the proposed changes.



Saying that they are not homogenizing mining ships doesn't make it so. They are doing the opposite of what you suggest. Oh look I can make a blatant statement without proof too. I'm just going to say the same damn thing until you provide some evidence otherwise. I posted yield numbers either that showed they all have similar yields.


Yes, you did. And yield isn't everything. I did provide proof, by the way, just not in the form you seem to understand. You're letting numbers blind you to any other line of reasoning. Quit posting numbers and provide a better argument.



Cause stating something without backing it up is proof.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1727 - 2012-07-28 17:04:34 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
a shame that no matter how much they Trammelize hisec, they will never compete with WoW


You have really to hope the current CEO and stake holders don't change and get replaced by "$$$$ in the eyes" quick short term money mongers a la EA.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1728 - 2012-07-28 17:10:14 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

those who unsub because they can't stand getting ~griefed~ will unsub for some other reason

this game is not for everyone

Right. And when CCP tallies the votes (aka subs,) who do you think has a bigger voice? The high-sec gankers? Or the high-sec miners? I think it's pretty obvious that CCP values the miners' concerns over the high-sec gankers' concerns.

The real question is: will the high-sec gankers unsub over the mining ship changes? Because, you know, this game isn't for everyone.



they won't, they'll adapt, like the miners have routinely failed to

on the other hand, the miners will unsub for other reasons, such as another wow clone they can give $15/mo to or getting scammed

the only way to adapt this game for the crowd in question is to completely throw away everything that keeps the people who actually love this game subscribed

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1729 - 2012-07-28 17:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Corina Jarr wrote:

And with the changes on SIsi, the only ships you ever need to fly are the Hulk for fleet ops, and the Mack for solo and afk.

The others will only be useful for poor people and those without the skills for the other two. And odd PvP doctrines... but that is not CCPs intention.


CCP can do just so much to diversify the ships. Game model is too simple and lacks of the hundreds of tangent factors that in RL make people buy products that are not min maxed in the 2-3 super important stats.

Also, there are "mining doctrines" too. If common belief is that max yield is THE MUST then they can sugar coat all they want, people will still fly untanked double MLU Hulks.

I don't expect to see equality in ships usage, nor ISK will play a factor since everybody can and will switch to an exhumer ASAP.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1730 - 2012-07-28 17:10:47 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
a shame that no matter how much they Trammelize hisec, they will never compete with WoW


You have really to hope the current CEO and stake holders don't change and get replaced by "$$$$ in the eyes" quick short term money mongers a la EA.


That already happened. It didn't quite turn out the way they had hoped.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1731 - 2012-07-28 17:11:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
a shame that no matter how much they Trammelize hisec, they will never compete with WoW


You have really to hope the current CEO and stake holders don't change and get replaced by "$$$$ in the eyes" quick short term money mongers a la EA.


you too, because every MMO that undergoes such radical changes dies

see SWG, UO, etc.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1732 - 2012-07-28 17:13:25 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

those who unsub because they can't stand getting ~griefed~ will unsub for some other reason

this game is not for everyone

Right. And when CCP tallies the votes (aka subs,) who do you think has a bigger voice? The high-sec gankers? Or the high-sec miners? I think it's pretty obvious that CCP values the miners' concerns over the high-sec gankers' concerns.

The real question is: will the high-sec gankers unsub over the mining ship changes? Because, you know, this game isn't for everyone.



they won't, they'll adapt, like the miners have routinely failed to

on the other hand, the miners will unsub for other reasons, such as another wow clone they can give $15/mo to or getting scammed

the only way to adapt this game for the crowd in question is to completely throw away everything that keeps the people who actually love this game subscribed

If mining is such a revolving door of subs, how are there enough of them here for this to matter and for this conversation to even be happening?
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1733 - 2012-07-28 17:14:25 UTC
Quote:

Cause stating something without backing it up is proof.


What you gave was a data section. If that was the extent of a paper you were turning in you would most assuredly get an 'F'. You need to flesh out your argument. Take your data and add a discussion section explaining why the differences you found were not significant. And if all you're going to do is provide numbers without a lot of reasoning, provide a statistical analysis of your numbers. How significant is the yield difference between them? How did you come to that conclusion? Are there any mitigating factors? Why should I take your yield numbers as proof that they are 'homogenized'?

You have stated something without backing it up, you just don't realize it.
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#1734 - 2012-07-28 17:14:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
a shame that no matter how much they Trammelize hisec, they will never compete with WoW


You have really to hope the current CEO and stake holders don't change and get replaced by "$$$$ in the eyes" quick short term money mongers a la EA.

hey dont forgat activision lol
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1735 - 2012-07-28 17:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
a shame that no matter how much they Trammelize hisec, they will never compete with WoW


You have really to hope the current CEO and stake holders don't change and get replaced by "$$$$ in the eyes" quick short term money mongers a la EA.


That already happened. It didn't quite turn out the way they had hoped.


You have yet to see the real EA-alike directors in action. If you believe that little CCP brainfart was something serious you'd see MMOs that got totally gutted to the point of losing dozens of servers in 2-3 months, others that within 3 months off release were already 40% player base down and so on.


Blastcaps Madullier wrote:

hey dont forgat activision lol


Fortunately I stopped having any sub to any of their games 6 years ago so I don't know how much they killed valuable products.

But remember this motto: "usually competitors are very similar to actually be in a long lasting fight". (else one would just crush the other).

So I suppose Activision became an EA mirror.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1736 - 2012-07-28 17:17:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
a shame that no matter how much they Trammelize hisec, they will never compete with WoW


You have really to hope the current CEO and stake holders don't change and get replaced by "$$$$ in the eyes" quick short term money mongers a la EA.


That already happened. It didn't quite turn out the way they had hoped.


You have yet to see the real EA-alike directors in action. If you believe that little CCP brainfart was something serious you'd see MMOs that got totally gutted to the point of losing dozens of servers in 2-3 months, others that within 3 months off release were already 40% player base down and so on.


I don't usually play other MMO's past the free month phase. I prefere playing with myself.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1737 - 2012-07-28 17:18:46 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:

I don't usually play other MMO's past the free month phase. I prefere playing with myself.


Beware not to get blind!
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#1738 - 2012-07-28 18:17:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:

And with the changes on SIsi, the only ships you ever need to fly are the Hulk for fleet ops, and the Mack for solo and afk.

The others will only be useful for poor people and those without the skills for the other two. And odd PvP doctrines... but that is not CCPs intention.


CCP can do just so much to diversify the ships. Game model is too simple and lacks of the hundreds of tangent factors that in RL make people buy products that are not min maxed in the 2-3 super important stats.

Also, there are "mining doctrines" too. If common belief is that max yield is THE MUST then they can sugar coat all they want, people will still fly untanked double MLU Hulks.

I don't expect to see equality in ships usage, nor ISK will play a factor since everybody can and will switch to an exhumer ASAP.

Oh I don't know. They could have, for example, kept the Hulk and Mack with the same (well close to it, more fittings) tank levels they are now. Then the baby miner would have a desirability for those who don't like losing ships to gankers.

But the vocal miners won't adapt anyway (since they could have for years now and haven't), so what is the point of making any changes. They still will fail fit, die to gankers, and whine on the forums. Meanwhile us adaptable miners will switch to ganking them because they are so destructive to the game as a whole.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1739 - 2012-07-28 18:22:18 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

those who unsub because they can't stand getting ~griefed~ will unsub for some other reason

this game is not for everyone

Right. And when CCP tallies the votes (aka subs,) who do you think has a bigger voice? The high-sec gankers? Or the high-sec miners? I think it's pretty obvious that CCP values the miners' concerns over the high-sec gankers' concerns.

The real question is: will the high-sec gankers unsub over the mining ship changes? Because, you know, this game isn't for everyone.


The HS gankers include a large portion of low sec folks, null sec folks, and HS folks. Remember, a lot of gankers are alts.

And if miners become the only voice CCP listens to, we'll cull them by the thousands.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1740 - 2012-07-28 18:24:32 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:

But the vocal miners won't adapt anyway (since they could have for years now and haven't), so what is the point of making any changes. They still will fail fit, die to gankers, and whine on the forums. Meanwhile us adaptable miners will switch to ganking them because they are so destructive to the game as a whole.


I would not consider just "vocal miners", because only a dozen of posts a month over thousands and thousands of people who daily mine in max yield fits make them quite irrelevant.

I am fairly sure CCP keeps statistics that cover with better detail the thousands who play and never post and change the game basing on them.