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What keeps you from PvPing?

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Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#601 - 2012-11-27 16:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dar Manic
Every time I sell something or buy something, I'm PvPing!!! Everyone PvPs in Eve even if they don't know it. ;)

Actually, nothing keeps me from PvPing. When I want PvP, I go PvP. When I'm doing something else, I take steps to avoid PvP opportunities. Eve is a sandbox where PvP is one of the things you can do.



(for this post only, please disregard my sig)

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#602 - 2012-11-27 16:41:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The only thing that keeps anyone from pvping is the fact that they don't want to, regardless of the excuses they make up to justify it. If a person ants to do something, they find a way. It's like with kids who have dozens of excuses why they can't get their work done, but move heaven and Earth to make it to a party.


Excuses, or reasons? Realistically, both, because we're talking about a lot of people. It's easy to imagine that everyone would find something fun because you do, but it rarely works out that way.

Any time you add any content to a game, you draw people who are primarily interested in, and entertained by, that content. You might not understand or appreciate why, but there they are.

Jenn aSide wrote:
There is nothing wrong with not liking ship combat pvp even in a space ship game where MOST of the ships are combat ships, that makes you weird but not stupid. The stupid comes in when you think you should be immune to ship combat PVP in a ship combat PVP game just because you don't like it.


I don't think anyone's disputing that. The OP's question only makes sense in the context of EVE as a PVP-everywhere sandbox game. But if you're designing a game that is built around ship PVP, wouldn't you want to know why a significant percentage of your player base doesn't engage in it? Maybe some of the reasons are Working As Intended(TM), because there are a lot of flavors of "PVP," even if you restrict the term to people shooting at each other. People coming to EVE expecting duel- or arena-style PVP leave disappointed, because it's not that kind of game. People who get nothing out of PVP will still fleet up and follow the FC's instructions to defend their space, because it is that kind of game.

But maybe some of the reasons are worth addressing? Or at least, knowing?

To answer Marlona's question: Yes. Not because of the Crimewatch or wardec changes, although those are welcome, but because of the ships. I hopped into an Arbitrator that I had (badly) fit as a cap-stable lasers-and-drones PVE boat some time ago, and it occurred to me that I wasn't really using it. Arbys are EWAR boats, and while EWAR boats aren't totally useless in PVE, they're much better suited to PVP. So I have another hull, which I've put off fitting until the rebalance drops. Also, dat Vexor. I have, I think, four of those things. (For me, that's a lot.) But there are also the new dessies, which look fun, and Zarnak Wulf's 125mm rebalanced Catalyst to try.

So you might very well find me flying through low sec, learning the hard way. Whether I get any kills, or whether I learn anything other than "an Arbitrator can't win against ten Machariels backed by 4 Scimitars" is another question, but that's EVE for you. It certainly wouldn't be my worst loss.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#603 - 2012-11-27 16:55:32 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
This question is directed at players who choose not to PvP. I am very curious as to what barriers, if any, keep you from PvPing? Granted there are some players who live in unknown space, low sec and null sec who still avoid PvP, the question is more directed at high sec players.

So please keep the post constructive and honest guys. If you do PvP, then please don't go crazy in here with posts of 'You're doing it wrong, hurr, derp!' scaring away the non-PvPers. I really would like to just hear from them on the subject.

Thanks. Big smile

EDIT: When I say high sec players, I am referring to what is keeping them from player combat in general. It is not specific to a location in the game. That said if you live anywhere in the game and don't engage in combat feel free to say why.

Also I am seeing a lot of other players who do participate in player combat chiming in with the 'You're doing it wrong!' posts. Please just ignore them.



When I first started it was the lack of SP and the ability to be competative. Sure you can tackle but your always fighting other groups more prepaired. Hard the find the casual solo pvp fight. Always somone looking to hot drop you. More of a cat and mouse game then smash mouth pvp.
Ginger Barbarella
#604 - 2012-11-27 17:18:17 UTC
Why would someone want to spend time with dope heads if one isn't a dope head?

Why would I want to spend time sitting on a gate waiting for something to happen if I'm paying for that time?

Why would I want to listen to and deal with a teenage emoraging FC to blob someone in a Retriever?

I pvp on my own terms (FW), not on the terms of someone sitting in Belarus, pounding 20 year old Jolt cola in his mom's basement... Maybe that's what annoys so many high sec peeveepee'ers: unwillingness of others to submit to their online superiority complex.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#605 - 2012-11-27 17:28:23 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The only thing that keeps anyone from pvping is the fact that they don't want to, regardless of the excuses they make up to justify it. If a person ants to do something, they find a way. It's like with kids who have dozens of excuses why they can't get their work done, but move heaven and Earth to make it to a party.


Excuses, or reasons? Realistically, both, because we're talking about a lot of people. It's easy to imagine that everyone would find something fun because you do, but it rarely works out that way.

Any time you add any content to a game, you draw people who are primarily interested in, and entertained by, that content. You might not understand or appreciate why, but there they are.


Yes Excuses, because some of the "reasons" people are using in this thread are things that are so insanely easy to overcome anyone who truly wanted to do combat pvp wouldn't even be slightly slowed down by them.

And who said I think things I find fun are things everyone should think are fun? I suggested no such thing.

Quote:

Jenn aSide wrote:
There is nothing wrong with not liking ship combat pvp even in a space ship game where MOST of the ships are combat ships, that makes you weird but not stupid. The stupid comes in when you think you should be immune to ship combat PVP in a ship combat PVP game just because you don't like it.


I don't think anyone's disputing that. The OP's question only makes sense in the context of EVE as a PVP-everywhere sandbox game. But if you're designing a game that is built around ship PVP, wouldn't you want to know why a significant percentage of your player base doesn't engage in it? Maybe some of the reasons are Working As Intended(TM), because there are a lot of flavors of "PVP," even if you restrict the term to people shooting at each other. People coming to EVE expecting duel- or arena-style PVP leave disappointed, because it's not that kind of game. People who get nothing out of PVP will still fleet up and follow the FC's instructions to defend their space, because it is that kind of game.

But maybe some of the reasons are worth addressing? Or at least, knowing?


That suggests there is some "problem" with the combat pvp. I don't see any, but then I didn't come into EVE with any preconceived notions of what space ship combat should look and feel like. I understood from the get go that playing EVE was about being the "captain" of a ship (not it's "pilot") and talk of individual skill or solo ship tactics ect don't mean anything to me. For me personally PVP is a tool, not the goal itself.

It is no mystery to me why even in pvp-centric MMOs like EVE a significant percentage of people try to avoid PVP (most mmo gamers in general don't care for pvp, which is why unrestricted pvp games like Darkfall are rarer than WoW clones).
Some people don't like that kind of competition and just want to "build" things or participate in other ways. Other people DO want to pvp but don't like to lose and thus won't "pvp" without an overwhelming advantage (or make excuses about why they don't PVP).

None of that is something CCP can "fix", no amount of tinkering will "cure" some people's dislike or aversion to combat pvp and I'd rather not see ccp or any other game company try to force that situation.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#606 - 2012-11-27 17:46:04 UTC
Not enough ISK I make... 5 days grind, 1 hour play (sold 30 plexes before, enough of that, everyone macroes their money)

Gank 3v1 attitude in EVE - eveytime no fun fights - it is all blob attacks, the outnumbered run and avoid combat.

3rd Reason, even 3 cruisers can't do Jack sh*** vs a battleship, bigger ship - no counter tactics, bring more bigger ships

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#607 - 2012-11-27 17:47:14 UTC
"Jenn aSide" wrote:
That suggests there is some "problem" with the combat pvp. I don't see any, but then I didn't come into EVE with any preconceived notions of what space ship combat should look and feel like. I understood from the get go that playing EVE was about being the "captain" of a ship (not it's "pilot") and talk of individual skill or solo ship tactics ect don't mean anything to me. For me personally PVP is a tool, not the goal itself.


I didn't come in with preconceptions either, because EVE is my first MMO. But other people do, just because they've done extensive PVP in other MMOs. some of which involve spaceships. For them, it may come as a surprise that EVE really is that different. And they may prefer the way other MMOs do PVP, which is fine: There are other MMOs.

"Jenn aSide" wrote:
It is no mystery to me why even in pvp-centric MMOs like EVE a significant percentage of people try to avoid PVP (most mmo gamers in general don't care for pvp, which is why unrestricted pvp games like Darkfall are rarer than WoW clones).
Some people don't like that kind of competition and just want to "build" things or participate in other ways. Other people DO want to pvp but don't like to lose and thus won't "pvp" without an overwhelming advantage (or make excuses about why they don't PVP).


If PVP is a tool toward a goal, then the latter view makes sense. If you go in knowing that you'll lose, you're not PVPing toward a goal. You're just costing yourself and your allies time, ISK, and their reason for fleeting up in the first place--unless your goal is ~gudfites~, of course.

"Jenn aSide" wrote:
None of that is something CCP can "fix", no amount of tinkering will "cure" some people's dislike or aversion to combat pvp and I'd rather not see ccp or any other game company try to force that situation.


Then we are fundamentally in agreement. I'm more interested in the thread as a source of information than as a manifesto for action.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Ginger Barbarella
#608 - 2012-11-27 17:51:59 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


That suggests there is some "problem" with the combat pvp.


There's a flaw in that thinking. Maybe people who subscribe to this PVP game where player versus player in spaceship combat is supposed to be a central theme but has SO MANY MORE ASPECTS just aren't interested in participating in player versus player spaceship combat.

Why is that so hard for so many of you to grok? And try answering without a "gtfo" or some other similar childishness.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#609 - 2012-11-27 18:00:44 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


That suggests there is some "problem" with the combat pvp.


There's a flaw in that thinking. Maybe people who subscribe to this PVP game where player versus player in spaceship combat is supposed to be a central theme but has SO MANY MORE ASPECTS just aren't interested in participating in player versus player spaceship combat.

Why is that so hard for so many of you to grok? And try answering without a "gtfo" or some other similar childishness.


Maybe it's so hard for me to "grok" for the same reasons it's hard for your to read English.....

Jenn aSide wrote:

Some people don't like that kind of competition and just want to "build" things or participate in other ways.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#610 - 2012-11-27 18:02:24 UTC
I'd have to log in

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#611 - 2012-11-27 18:04:54 UTC
why i don't pvp you ask?
- pvp in eve is slow, shallow and boring
- the UI is horrible in general and especially bad for fast-paced pvp (luckily, see above)
- no balance to speak of

that should do it....

I should buy an Ishtar.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#612 - 2012-11-27 18:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Dersen Lowery wrote:


If PVP is a tool toward a goal, then the latter view makes sense. If you go in knowing that you'll lose, you're not PVPing toward a goal. You're just costing yourself and your allies time, ISK, and their reason for fleeting up in the first place--unless your goal is ~gudfites~, of course.


This is absolutely incorrect.

Perhaps (for example) I know im going to lose my ship, or my fleet, but by fighting I prevent the opposition from fighting the OTHER fleet that is taking down the station that came out of it's last reinforce cycle. Perhaps I know i'll eventually lose my bomber, but guerilla warfare isn't about win lose, it's about making LIVING in the lands they just conquered a living hell.

Besides that, I've never been in a fight I knew I was going to lose. I have been in such contests where the odds were against me, but without a crystal ball i didn't KNOW I was going to lose.

None of that is the point however. The point is that some people have such personal problems that they can't even see themselves risking loss in a video game. There are videos on youtube of gamers actually crying after some kind of loss or another, and there have to be some of those folks playing EVE lol.

These are the folks i'm talking about, the folks who would pvp if they knew they'd always win, OR if EVE's "death penalty" weren't so high (or if their were not killmails to record their shame LOL), and these people tend to make excuses as to why they don't pvp. Other people simply don't like combat pvp in general.
Quote:

"Jenn aSide" wrote:
None of that is something CCP can "fix", no amount of tinkering will "cure" some people's dislike or aversion to combat pvp and I'd rather not see ccp or any other game company try to force that situation.


Then we are fundamentally in agreement. I'm more interested in the thread as a source of information than as a manifesto for action.


Action for what?
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#613 - 2012-11-27 19:00:54 UTC
Makton Kelevin wrote:
10v1 = GF o7

umm, that math doesn't really work. How would you expect that one guy to say "gf" when 10 ships drop on him?

same way you expect the guy who just got cannon-rushed or 6-pooled to type "gg" regardless of whether he thought the game was "good" or not.

it's a matter of courtesy and sportsmanship

.
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#614 - 2012-11-27 19:07:39 UTC
Dunan Sanis wrote:
I would love to PvP but -A- don't want to undock

Simple solution, Tell PL to go do whatever they do else where, then tell your alliance leader to cancel the Alliance with CFC

Then im sure -A- will take your space over and you will once again cry.

Easy to be confident when you have a bunch of players protecting ya, another story when its just you and your fellow alliance buddys.
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#615 - 2012-11-27 19:09:14 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Makton Kelevin wrote:
10v1 = GF o7

umm, that math doesn't really work. How would you expect that one guy to say "gf" when 10 ships drop on him?

same way you expect the guy who just got cannon-rushed or 6-pooled to type "gg" regardless of whether he thought the game was "good" or not.

it's a matter of courtesy and sportsmanship



10v1 might be G** F***** 04(..|.)
Depends on pilot.
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#616 - 2012-11-27 19:09:52 UTC
Opertone wrote:
Not enough ISK I make... 5 days grind, 1 hour play (sold 30 plexes before, enough of that, everyone macroes their money)

Gank 3v1 attitude in EVE - eveytime no fun fights - it is all blob attacks, the outnumbered run and avoid combat.

3rd Reason, even 3 cruisers can't do Jack sh*** vs a battleship, bigger ship - no counter tactics, bring more bigger ships


your theory is kinda Fail, since a T2 assualt frig can easily own a battleship on its own. and has less dps then 3 cruisers, not sure where your getting your info from. but it is inacurate Lol
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#617 - 2012-11-27 19:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:


If PVP is a tool toward a goal, then the latter view makes sense. If you go in knowing that you'll lose, you're not PVPing toward a goal. You're just costing yourself and your allies time, ISK, and their reason for fleeting up in the first place--unless your goal is ~gudfites~, of course.


This is absolutely incorrect.

Perhaps (for example) I know im going to lose my ship, or my fleet, but by fighting I prevent the opposition from fighting the OTHER fleet that is taking down the station that came out of it's last reinforce cycle. Perhaps I know i'll eventually lose my bomber, but guerilla warfare isn't about win lose, it's about making LIVING in the lands they just conquered a living hell.


So if you're doing guerilla warfare, you can lose every fight and win the war. If you're not doing guerilla warfare, maybe not. The point is that I'm not assuming anything about the circumstances. There are plenty of instances where people flee fights, and I'm not going to assume that it's because they're unreasonable, or crybabies.

And, of course, making the decision in advance is a matter of calculating the odds, not knowing for absolute certain that your Imicus could theoretically take the boosted, instalocking camp on the other side of the gate.

Jenn aSide wrote:
None of that is the point however. The point is that some people have such personal problems that they can't even see themselves risking loss in a video game. There are videos on youtube of gamers actually crying after some kind of loss or another, and there have to be some of those folks playing EVE lol.


The OP assumed that the people answering had good reasons for not PVPing, so I read your post in that context. The few people who start bawling because someone blew up the officer-fit Bhaalgorn they were running L2s in... they have problems that are much bigger than any game. They don't need discussion threads or comment from other players. They need professional help.

"Jenn aSide" wrote:
"Dersen Lowery" wrote:
Then we are fundamentally in agreement. I'm more interested in the thread as a source of information than as a manifesto for action.


Action for what?


You brought up the spectre of CCP forcing situations; I was referring to that. What I was trying to clarify is that I assume that CCP would enjoy the opportunity to learn what their customers like and don't like about a core aspect of the game, not whether they would force anyone to do anything. They will probably see this thread and conclude that the game is working as intended, but maybe they'll discover something.

That said, I did mention CCP, and I can see how that would set off alarm bells. It's more accurate to say that the thread is answering one poster's genuine curiosity, but CCP might find it an interesting read.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#618 - 2012-11-27 23:41:21 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
This question is directed at players who choose not to PvP. I am very curious as to what barriers, if any, keep you from PvPing? Granted there are some players who live in unknown space, low sec and null sec who still avoid PvP, the question is more directed at high sec players.

So please keep the post constructive and honest guys. If you do PvP, then please don't go crazy in here with posts of 'You're doing it wrong, hurr, derp!' scaring away the non-PvPers. I really would like to just hear from them on the subject.

Thanks. Big smile

EDIT: When I say high sec players, I am referring to what is keeping them from player combat in general. It is not specific to a location in the game. That said if you live anywhere in the game and don't engage in combat feel free to say why.

Also I am seeing a lot of other players who do participate in player combat chiming in with the 'You're doing it wrong!' posts. Please just ignore them.

I actually love nullsec and the small trips I take there. It's mainly an ISK and skills barrier that keeps me from staying in null often.

The main problems- most good ships are T2 ships. T2 ships are expensive, and can take me 2-3 hours to grind for a properly fitted Curse or a Pilgrim hull.

Even if I did grind for a Curse, I would have to train most subskills to V. That adds a considerable amount of time before I can actually bring down an effective T2 ship to nullsec and use them before getting blown up every day.

The last hurdle is blobs. I'm hesitant to engage in any form of solo PvP whatsoever because there are always these people in 20-person gatecamping blobs that web you and use their dictors to point you, and then you die before you can say "podded". That kinda ruins the experience for me.

When I find another way to make ISK besides Incursions, and my training improves after a couple of months, I can see myself living in null for long periods of time. But for now? I shall carebear.
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#619 - 2012-11-27 23:49:58 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


When I find another way to make ISK besides Incursions, and my training improves after a couple of months, I can see myself living in null for long periods of time. But for now? I shall carebear.


You'll never have "enough" ISK/SP for PvP, and the more you wait to PvP the less you'll want to do it.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#620 - 2012-11-28 00:19:57 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


When I find another way to make ISK besides Incursions, and my training improves after a couple of months, I can see myself living in null for long periods of time. But for now? I shall carebear.


You'll never have "enough" ISK/SP for PvP, and the more you wait to PvP the less you'll want to do it.

I've noticed that. I do have a blast flying around an Arbitrator, but if I ever want to fly that Curse I'll need to skill up and grind some more. That keeps me in hisec for much of the time.

I'd say it's not the ISK that's the main issue, it's probably the skill training. The ISK is just a contributing factor.