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Selling characters (account) for real money
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Boomhaur
#101 - 2012-07-10 03:59:33 UTC
Gun Gal wrote:
Showed my brother, who is actually a copyright Lawyer this thread.

His response?
" thought you said eve isn't full if idiots "

True story



Not surprised. Laws are a bit annoying with how they are worded though, so many ways you can interpret something. Than there are other laws which you can argue to support it or argue it. So you can't hold it against people too much when they haven't seen the actual laws about what is going on nor had training in it and are just going on assumptions of what the law should be.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#102 - 2012-07-10 07:57:11 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:

1) trials don't count. Once the trial ends, the software is no longer fully functioning.

2) I doubt you downloaded W7 and it worked fully featured without paying for it... unless you did so illegally

3) the EVE client works 100% upon download. You can receive updates, set settings, and enter the user information. What you need to pay for is the ability to use the EVE server which is separate from the client. You never pay for the EVE software. You pay to access the server.


''The court also ruled that any patches, upgrades or server access made to the software through a service agreement also form part of the used software that can be sold on.''

Next point please, server access is a right via the licence, my 30 day licences allow me access to their servers.

Don't get me wrong I support eve and I hope CCP make the right choices here because if they do not the results may be terminal or at least very costly.


Ccp aren't legally obliged to let anyone access their server. They can't stop you "selling" your account even without this law, but they're under no obligation to honour that sale, and there will be nothing you will be able to do to force them to. They can ban an account because they don't like the colour of you socks if they want to.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2012-07-10 08:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
If you really want to sell an account because you need money you should probably find a f*u*c*k*i*n*g job instead of playing with internet spaceships.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Lugalzagezi666
#104 - 2012-07-10 09:11:02 UTC
Othran gets it.

Also I´m surprised how many people can´t believe, that in some countries citizens do have consumer rights.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2012-07-10 09:15:22 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Othran gets it.

Also I´m surprised how many people can´t believe, that in some countries citizens do have consumer rights.


some of us want to play the game for fun, not to make a living off of it, and would rather not have to compete with people who play this game to put food on their tables

i'm sure you could see why

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2012-07-10 09:17:44 UTC
also not being able to sell your account isn't a violation of your ~consumer rights~ because your game account is basically a contract between you and CCP that either party can choose to terminate at any time, either you by cancelling your account or CCP by banning it

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Lugalzagezi666
#107 - 2012-07-10 09:36:27 UTC
National (eu) laws > eula/ tos/whatever. Fact.
If contract breaks/ignores any of these laws, contract is not valid.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#108 - 2012-07-10 09:40:37 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
National (eu) laws > eula/ tos/whatever. Fact.
If contract breaks/ignores any of these laws, contract is not valid.



Malcanis wrote:

Ccp aren't legally obliged to let anyone access their server. They can't stop you "selling" your account even without this law, but they're under no obligation to honour that sale, and there will be nothing you will be able to do to force them to. They can ban an account because they don't like the colour of your socks if they want to.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-07-10 10:07:00 UTC
Guys, guys no need to get so overexcited Blizzard with their bizarre Real Money Auction-house opened the door to tons of new laws and regulations regarding virtual goods and all that stuff. Because the Issues and implication that come with virtual goods are not deal dealt with right now in a proper way. So I'd just sit back and watch new laws come along in the next 2 years. Because several courts already ruled that virtual goods are no different from material goods since they hold a certain value for the owner.

I do however believe that at some point you will be free to do with your in-game stuff however you please. All these EULA / TOS stuff right now exists because there are no clear laws regarding virtual stuff. The more politics becomes aware of it due to the increase of people playing mmo's and caring about these issues the more likely stuff will change.
Lugalzagezi666
#110 - 2012-07-10 10:15:06 UTC
Ccp games as every company registered (or just operating) in EAA [b must respect [/b] all related EU laws. I.e. if Ccp takes the money from you and does not deliver product (service), they are breaking the laws. You can sue them and court can force them to provide you said product (service) or return you the money.

Simply - if any company wants to sell products or provide services, it has to accept the local laws (in this case EU laws).

As Othran pointed, this does not mean, that judgement of the Court of justice of EU qualifies you to sell your eve account, as this judgement talks about "transfering the right of the ownership is involved only for the licenses, that grant right to use for unlimited period of time." But if highest court decided, it applies to all kinds of licenses, ccp games could be forced by law to permit all such transfers.

Baki Yuku wrote:
Guys, guys no need to get so overexcited Blizzard with their bizarre Real Money Auction-house opened the door to tons of new laws and regulations regarding virtual goods and all that stuff.
So I'd just sit back and watch new laws come along in the next 2 years. Because several courts already ruled that virtual goods are no different from material goods since they hold a certain value for the owner.

This.
But even now we can clearly see that eu and us legislative chose different ways.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-07-10 10:26:01 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Ccp games as every company registered (or just operating) in EAA [b must respect [/b] all related EU laws. I.e. if Ccp takes the money from you and does not deliver product (service), they are breaking the laws. You can sue them and court can force them to provide you said product (service) or return you the money.


While that would be the logical thing to assume, it seems that that are a lot of loop holes what can be exploited. E.g. internet and telephone service providers no longer charge you for the service, but the subscription that enables you to access the service. Which means they can cut off access to the networks, if lets say you forget to pay your bill, while at the same time charge you for the subscription.

It's all there somewhere in the fine print...

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#112 - 2012-07-10 10:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiwha
Othran wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
Your account isn't a software license.


It is actually in the context of the ruling.

The ruling is fairly clear and deals with software, not just games.

Oracle are the company who has been trying to block resale and from what I remember they tried to argue that "downloaded" software should have different resale rules to software installed from a physical medium (CD/DVD). The argument involved the use of an install mechanism which required an account with Oracle to download/install/activate the licenced software.

The court has disagreed with Oracle.

There are some salient points which most gamer sites will have missed - such as :

"Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy — tangible or intangible — and at the same time concludes, in return [for] payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy,"

As far as I'm aware CCP do not provide a licence agreement to use for an unlimited period. There is a recurring monthly fee. I suspect that means you can in fact sell an entire account but not a character from an account. This might in fact stop character transfers within the EU but allow account transfers.

Parasite (lawyer) heaven Roll



CCP sold you absolutely nothing. The EVE client is completely free. (I myself have three copies) You then pay CCP a monthly fee to access their servers. If you wanted to "sell" your copy of EVE to some poor sap, that's perfectly fine. (aside from being a scam) CCP does not sell software.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2012-07-10 11:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
internet lawyers are hilarious

"let me tell you my biased interpretation of an EU ruling that CCP's legal counsel has probably already looked at and determined that it doesn't actually prohibit Sreegs from banning traded accounts"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#114 - 2012-07-10 14:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
PLEX can be redeemed from the game and if you look at your account it is added as 30 day eve subscription. The new EU rules have been created to stop software giants and a company like CCP from exploiting users, we should have the right to sell our game licences and subscriptions and for that reason I'm converting as much worthless ISK into 30 day game subs in the hope that I will one day be able to trade out with the permission of CCP.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#115 - 2012-07-10 14:49:04 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
The new EU rules have been created to stop software giants and a company like CCP from exploiting users,
No. The new rules have been created to stop software vendors to differentiate between physically and digitally distributed software.

You are now free to sell your free game license to someone else. Good on you. Your service contract for accessing CCP's servers are not covered by this precedent. Your subscription and your account are not software licenses.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#116 - 2012-07-10 15:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Tippia wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
The new EU rules have been created to stop software giants and a company like CCP from exploiting users,
No. The new rules have been created to stop software vendors to differentiate between physically and digitally distributed software.

You are now free to sell your free game license to someone else. Good on you. Your service contract for accessing CCP's servers are not covered by this precedent. Your subscription and your account are not software licenses.


''The court also ruled that any patches, upgrades or server access made to the software through a service agreement also form part of the used software that can be sold on.''

30 day server licences can be sold. The eve 30 day is a licence to connect to the game server for 30 days.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#117 - 2012-07-10 15:26:43 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
''The court also ruled that any patches, upgrades or server access made to the software through a service agreement also form part of the used software that can be sold on.''
…except that you're still not buying a time-unlimited access to their download service. You're buying a subscription (and topping it off with PLEX), which is not covered by the ruling.

So no, PLEX are not covered.
Lugalzagezi666
#118 - 2012-07-10 19:26:13 UTC
Anything necessary to enable the new acquirer to use the program in accordance with its intended purpose is covered by the judgement of the court.

Still, judgement only talks about licences originally granted by that rightholder to the first acquirer for an unlimited period of time. As far as I know, thats not the case of Eve online (as was pointed out on the first page of the thread...).
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2012-07-10 19:56:39 UTC
You cannot sell the software on CCP's servers because you never bought it.

The "designed purpose" of the Eve client is to connect to an account in good standing. If your account is not up to date, it will still connect but upon seeing no valid account it will simply let you run the pretty intro music.

To take this silliness to it's conclusion, does buying a license to Internet Explorer (through Windows) give me rights to every account anywhere on the web? No. You still have to pay the subscription fee for a subscriber site, even a Microsoft one.
Xavier Bandar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2012-07-10 21:02:24 UTC
that beast wrote:
Something which occurred to me whilst I was reading all the rage throughout, and all the well reasoned arguments, was that you could argue, theoretically, that your account/character is an in game personification of you. It is a virtual representation of your being, mind, soul, whatnot, and as such, I suspect that an accomplished lawyer (which I am most certainly not, although maybe Mittens could help...lol) will easily be able to argue that selling your character for real life money is tantamount to selling yourself, and lead from there to prostitution. I'm pretty sure the EU rulings don't make that legal...


And I'm pretty sure you don't know **** about EU rulings, as prostitution is perfectly legal in most EU countries.

I do think there should be a EU ruling on banning ******** threads. Guess we can't always get what we want.