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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#1161 - 2012-08-19 19:27:13 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Janet Patton wrote:
I think WiS is a great idea. I quit back in 2005, but came back for Incarna because I discovered we now had avatars. Which I thought was awesome and was something I always wanted for Eve. I think avatar base game play is a great way to increase the immersion into the Eve universe.

I suspect the crowd that has been very vocal against avatar interaction, are the ones that like it simple and just want to blow each other up.

there were enough that didhnt want it it cut into ccp so they had to fire 20% of the company.... thats significant


So CCP has a smaller crew ,doing everything more efficient

I feel for the ones back then ,that had to leave but bringing up old news doesn,t help you


Nor does ignoring the impact this crap that should be taken out of the game had ON the company running the game when it came in. The VERY NEGATIVE EFFECT

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1162 - 2012-08-19 19:30:33 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Janet Patton wrote:
I think WiS is a great idea. I quit back in 2005, but came back for Incarna because I discovered we now had avatars. Which I thought was awesome and was something I always wanted for Eve. I think avatar base game play is a great way to increase the immersion into the Eve universe.

I suspect the crowd that has been very vocal against avatar interaction, are the ones that like it simple and just want to blow each other up.

there were enough that didhnt want it it cut into ccp so they had to fire 20% of the company.... thats significant


So CCP has a smaller crew ,doing everything more efficient

I feel for the ones back then ,that had to leave but bringing up old news doesn,t help you


Nor does ignoring the impact this crap that should be taken out of the game had ON the company running the game when it came in. The VERY NEGATIVE EFFECT



tell me exactly what negative effect WIS had ,other then disappointment about content

and we are not talking about NEX and some letters and e-mails here

R.S.I2014
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#1163 - 2012-08-19 20:12:42 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

there were enough that didhnt want it it cut into ccp so they had to fire 20% of the company.... thats significant



Quote:


tell me exactly what negative effect WIS had ,other then disappointment about content



Cause yeah none of the ignoring FiS for as long as they did to focus on noncombat beta walking engine for WoD had ANYTHING to do with that right?

Take off the rose colored glasses bud

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1164 - 2012-08-19 20:26:21 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

there were enough that didhnt want it it cut into ccp so they had to fire 20% of the company.... thats significant



Quote:


tell me exactly what negative effect WIS had ,other then disappointment about content



Cause yeah none of the ignoring FiS for as long as they did to focus on noncombat beta walking engine for WoD had ANYTHING to do with that right?

Take off the rose colored glasses bud


Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that? in under 6 months

But come on ,come with a good reason WIS is negative for EvE and come with a reason about WIS itself this time

R.S.I2014
Pipa Porto
#1165 - 2012-08-19 21:00:08 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:

Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that? in under 6 months

But come on ,come with a good reason WIS is negative for EvE and come with a reason about WIS itself this time



CCP made a start with Crucible. But remember all the threads that came with it of "this was just 4 months of effort? What else did we lose out on because of 18 months spent on WIS?"


WIS takes resources away from FIS. FIS is the core gameplay (because until we got stuck in the WOD Alpha CCP calls CQ, there was no WIS).

Taking resources away from working on the core gameplay of a game is bad mmmkay. Taking resources away from working on the core gameplay for 18 months and returning with "Here's a rusty cage, hope you like walking around" is... Roll

By the way, Crucible had more FIS content than any of the expansions between it and Dominion, so the resource drain wasn't insignificant.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1166 - 2012-08-19 21:11:06 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:

Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that? in under 6 months

But come on ,come with a good reason WIS is negative for EvE and come with a reason about WIS itself this time



CCP made a start with Crucible. But remember all the threads that came with it of "this was just 4 months of effort? What else did we lose out on because of 18 months spent on WIS?"


WIS takes resources away from FIS. FIS is the core gameplay (because until we got stuck in the WOD Alpha CCP calls CQ, there was no WIS).

Taking resources away from working on the core gameplay of a game is bad mmmkay. Taking resources away from working on the core gameplay for 18 months and returning with "Here's a rusty cage, hope you like walking around" is... Roll

By the way, Crucible had more FIS content than any of the expansions between it and Dominion, so the resource drain wasn't insignificant.

you are not answering my question,what are the negative affects of WIS to EvE

R.S.I2014
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1167 - 2012-08-19 21:13:25 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:


Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that?


They bought themselves some time with a laundry list of easy-to-fix player issues.

Ms Porto is correct: the root cause of the ill-feeling against the Incarna project is that it sucked up the vast majority of the resources dedicated to EVE for a very long time, and gave us virtually nothing in return. If :18 months: had bought us just some of multi-avatar gameplay, social spaces, the battle room, minigames, black marketing, avatar exploration, etc etc, then there would have been some mumbling and grumbling about that laundry list of issues, but there wouldn't have been such a furious backlash.

Having been short-changed in this way once, surely you understand that there is a demographic here who can hardly be blamed for wanting to be reassured that it won't happen again?

I've said - many times - that in the long run, EVE needs Incarna, and I stand by that even now. But all considerations of gameplay, resource allocation, emotes, art assets, yadda yadda, are meaningless unless and until CCP can put a working demonstration of a couple of dozen avatars in the same area onto SiSi. Until they've finished creating the core engine, there is no "Incarna", only a preliminary tech demo of what it might one day look like. Allocating multiple teams for all that other stuff is wastefully premature while there's still a huge amount of work that can usefully be done to right now improve the FiS game.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1168 - 2012-08-19 21:13:26 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:

Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that? in under 6 months

But come on ,come with a good reason WIS is negative for EvE and come with a reason about WIS itself this time



CCP made a start with Crucible. But remember all the threads that came with it of "this was just 4 months of effort? What else did we lose out on because of 18 months spent on WIS?"


WIS takes resources away from FIS. FIS is the core gameplay (because until we got stuck in the WOD Alpha CCP calls CQ, there was no WIS).

Taking resources away from working on the core gameplay of a game is bad mmmkay. Taking resources away from working on the core gameplay for 18 months and returning with "Here's a rusty cage, hope you like walking around" is... Roll

By the way, Crucible had more FIS content than any of the expansions between it and Dominion, so the resource drain wasn't insignificant.



The end result off those 18 months supposedly only going to WIS,is the change of direction CCP made ,you should be happy

R.S.I2014
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#1169 - 2012-08-19 21:14:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:


Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that?


They bought themselves some time with a laundry list of easy-to-fix player issues.

Ms Porto is correct: the root cause of the ill-feeling against the Incarna project is that it sucked up the vast majority of the resources dedicated to EVE for a very long time, and gave us virtually nothing in return. If :18 months: had bought us just some of multi-avatar gameplay, social spaces, the battle room, minigames, black marketing, avatar exploration, etc etc, then there would have been some mumbling and grumbling about that laundry list of issues, but there wouldn't have been such a furious backlash.

Having been short-changed in this way once, surely you understand that there is a demographic here who can hardly be blamed for wanting to be reassured that it won't happen again?

I've said - many times - that in the long run, EVE needs Incarna, and I stand by that even now. But all considerations of gameplay, resource allocation, emotes, art assets, yadda yadda, are meaningless unless and until CCP can put a working demonstration of a couple of dozen avatars in the same area onto SiSi. Until they've finished creating the core engine, there is no "Incarna", only a preliminary tech demo of what it might one day look like. Allocating multiple teams for all that other stuff is wastefully premature while there's still a huge amount of work that can usefully be done to right now improve the FiS game.



Again ,what is the negative effect on EvE ,other then disappointment by lack of content

R.S.I2014
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1170 - 2012-08-19 22:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Malcanis wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:


Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that?


They bought themselves some time with a laundry list of easy-to-fix player issues.

Ms Porto is correct: the root cause of the ill-feeling against the Incarna project is that it sucked up the vast majority of the resources dedicated to EVE for a very long time, and gave us virtually nothing in return. If :18 months: had bought us just some of multi-avatar gameplay, social spaces, the battle room, minigames, black marketing, avatar exploration, etc etc, then there would have been some mumbling and grumbling about that laundry list of issues, but there wouldn't have been such a furious backlash.

Having been short-changed in this way once, surely you understand that there is a demographic here who can hardly be blamed for wanting to be reassured that it won't happen again?

I've said - many times - that in the long run, EVE needs Incarna, and I stand by that even now. But all considerations of gameplay, resource allocation, emotes, art assets, yadda yadda, are meaningless unless and until CCP can put a working demonstration of a couple of dozen avatars in the same area onto SiSi. Until they've finished creating the core engine, there is no "Incarna", only a preliminary tech demo of what it might one day look like. Allocating multiple teams for all that other stuff is wastefully premature while there's still a huge amount of work that can usefully be done to right now improve the FiS game.


Oh, the "18 months" tale again... the infamous 18 months were NOT spent in WiS alone actually, as most of the effort was done to rebuild the core libraries. It was this work behind the scenes what drained the development resources. Do you remember when the fonts weren't scalable? This issue was fixed after CCP rebuilt the whole graphical engine, a measly half million lines of undocumented Python code spread across 500 megabytes of libraries. This plus the implementation of Carbon, was a massive effort that set the foundations so now we can get new shiny (better GUI, V3 textures, whatever). But the tradeoff was that players would not get much content, neither new nor "iterated". And the few they would get would be aimed towards Incarna, which in turn was shrinked to the minimal expression in the hope that it would stick and suffice until Winter 2011.

Then everything went awfuly wrong to everybody, but you may concede that the deepest cut was for the people who actually waited for Incarna and were delivered a broken, unoptimyzed non-feature.

And now our non-feature has become backburned for the next 18 months of development, to the point that someone decided that it's better that CCP doesn't keeps talking on the issue.

As if Incarna never had been, and as if we pro-WiSers could perfectly pack our stuff and GTFO of EVE as far as CCP is "corporately" concerned.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1171 - 2012-08-20 00:50:47 UTC
im pretty sure WIS is still being worked on just very slowly, i assume it will be released once it's polished and functional. CCP will have more staff to work on this after dust and WoD is deployed. What most people had a hissy fit about was the Nex Store not the captain quarters in combination with the disclosures of certain documents to a certain eve news site.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.
Ghazu
#1172 - 2012-08-20 02:34:04 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
And I think the work Team Avatar's hinted at in this thread sounds fantastic. Where have I said otherwise? Team Avatar looks to be working on giving us meaningful interaction with the next Incarna release, and that's exciting.

The thing that I've been arguing against is the idea that having a multi-character CQ is a worthy goal for its own sake.

What's truly bizarre is the people who've gone even beyond that and seem to actively oppose WiS having gameplay in it.

"Noooo, don't give me anything interesting to do in my featureless graphical chatroom!"


I wonder who you're talking about. I am opposing that Team Avatar's dungeon raiding prototype became at any point the only way to leave the CQ, nothing else.

I don't care that Team Avatar recycles combat PvP into WiS form, as long as they provide OTHER options FIRST.

The conundrum is, EVE lacks more gameplay options, if they are added to core gameplay they will break the core gameplay further, thus extra gameplay should be added outside of core gameplay. Enter WiS as an alternative to FiS and everybody is happy.

Then, in order to develop WiS as an alternative to FiS, the first step should be to ask the players what else would they like to do aside of FiS.

"Shoot each other's face, unga unga!" is an obvious answer, but, what else could be done to draw in new players who never thought they would play EVE Online?

Of course, this all becomes like splitting hairs once WiS has been delayed for two years, Team Avatar can't talk about their work and all in all CCP marketing is already devaluating the subscription price a 45% in order to raise subscribers. Ugh

(Of course, there is another way... if people does want to play with humanoid avatars and they don't exactly like EVE, scratch EVE and enter World of Darkness... but then what the hell do we do with all the money, time, skills and such we invested in our EVE characters? Blink )


Again you are demanding for the quick and dirty I just want to emote with a bunch of dudes.

Stop trying to ride the coattails of the yet to come new players and painting them as if they were all imvu second life freak refugees like you, coming to eve only to quit after their first month's up because "they can't emote each other".

Your invested time, money and skills? What you want a refund?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Buylow Sell-High
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1173 - 2012-08-20 05:01:17 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
..... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes......... emote with a bunch of dudes.....


Yeah, we get the point.

Welcome to the block list, you say the same thing every time. Bye fail troll.
Ghazu
#1174 - 2012-08-20 05:16:41 UTC
It is what it is no matter what kinds of words you people use to describe wis. Facts are harsh.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Ghazu
#1175 - 2012-08-20 05:28:53 UTC
CCP Zulu "Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience." Made me do it.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1176 - 2012-08-20 05:52:43 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Oh, the "18 months" tale again... the infamous 18 months were NOT spent in WiS alone actually, as most of the effort was done to rebuild the core libraries...


No it wasn't. Refactorisation was one of the projects, but Icarna had something like 11 out of 18 total teams assigned to it. FiS had 2 teams. Stop trying to rewrite history: The 2009-2011 Incarna project was incredibly poorly managed and produced incredibly poor results compared to the resources assigned.

When there's a working beta of a multiplayer avatar engine on SiSi, we can start talking about what should or shouldnt be in Incarna. Until then I can easily name 4 or 5 major projects that would unquestionably benefit the FiS game and the MMO EVE overall more than designing art assets and dungeons for a game engine that can't support 2 players on screen at once.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1177 - 2012-08-20 05:54:19 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:


Well CCP redeemed themselves with crubicle or i am i wrong with that?


They bought themselves some time with a laundry list of easy-to-fix player issues.

Ms Porto is correct: the root cause of the ill-feeling against the Incarna project is that it sucked up the vast majority of the resources dedicated to EVE for a very long time, and gave us virtually nothing in return. If :18 months: had bought us just some of multi-avatar gameplay, social spaces, the battle room, minigames, black marketing, avatar exploration, etc etc, then there would have been some mumbling and grumbling about that laundry list of issues, but there wouldn't have been such a furious backlash.

Having been short-changed in this way once, surely you understand that there is a demographic here who can hardly be blamed for wanting to be reassured that it won't happen again?

I've said - many times - that in the long run, EVE needs Incarna, and I stand by that even now. But all considerations of gameplay, resource allocation, emotes, art assets, yadda yadda, are meaningless unless and until CCP can put a working demonstration of a couple of dozen avatars in the same area onto SiSi. Until they've finished creating the core engine, there is no "Incarna", only a preliminary tech demo of what it might one day look like. Allocating multiple teams for all that other stuff is wastefully premature while there's still a huge amount of work that can usefully be done to right now improve the FiS game.



Again ,what is the negative effect on EvE ,other then disappointment by lack of content


One could ask the same question about your waiting another 18 months for Incarna features.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vagilicious
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1178 - 2012-08-20 08:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vagilicious
Ai Shun made a very interesting proposal for how WiS could work in being made into a separate, but connected part of EVE.

Thread is here.

Like many others, I've been eagerly awaiting the chance to walk around in stations since the first time plans were announced way back.

I was also very disappointed in what Incarna eventually delivered after all that time, once the initial 'ooh, shiny' had worn off.

I still believe that avatar based gameplay is a natural progression in CCP's vision for EVE becoming the ultimate sci-fi simulation. I know that many people had issues with the CQ and single avatar melting their graphics cards, but many new games that push the envelope with graphical detail have the same problems. Once technology catches up and allows the games to run smoothly it ceases to become an issue, until the next new thing comes along.

To my mind it shows how forward thinking and ahead of the curve CCP actually are. In a couple of years when we've had progressively faster graphics cards on the market, the CQ (and hopefully any additions that Team Avatar come up with in that time) will still look fantastic.

I think the future is looking bright for EVE in general, and I intend to be around to see it happen. So what's a couple more years to wait?

Incidentally, I still see the same misinformation being posted about the Jita riots being blamed on Incarna. It was about the whole 'Greed is Good' microtransactions issue, which, while linked to Incarna through the NeX, did not mean that Incarna was the only reason. Threat of gold ammo anyone?
Scott PiIgrim
Doomheim
#1179 - 2012-08-20 13:16:23 UTC
I've made corporations, I've made alliances, now i want to make a bar to resign my eve career. Share stories over quafe and enjoy drunk duels outside the station. I really hope CCP makes it, so we few oldtimers can enjoy it Big smile
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1180 - 2012-08-20 15:23:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

......
When there's a working beta of a multiplayer avatar engine on SiSi, .........

Its on there right now. But you got to use a PS3 to access it.

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