Science & Industry

it isnt a nerf, its more like making the hulk redundant. if the covetor/hulk will be turned into fleet miners, then the only thing that matters is yield, tank doesnt matter, hold doesnt matter, nothing but yield. and if the yield difference between the hulk and the covetor is 15% yield, then the ship is as good a miner as the machariel is a blob ship.

100 machs blobbing... i can see how scary that would be... untill you realize the isk/VALUE ratio you get outta hulks/machs is ****.

why having a mining op worth 3 billons floating on a hidden belt, when 300 millons worth of covetors give you 15% less yield, and it amortizes itself in the first 30 minutes?

only a complete moron doesnt account for the ship value when calculating income, and the cost of a hulk far outweights the +15% yield.

"New ORE frig: we want this ship to replace current mining frigates as low barrier of entry vessel, but also fulfill high-end gameplay expectations by providing a very mobile platform for mining in hostile space. Lowest mining output, decent ore bay, little to no resilience.

Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP.

Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge.

Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up."

While I like these idea of having these dedicated roles, I feel that they are out of alignment with where they should be. IMHO, this is how I would have done it:

ORE Frigate: The nimble blockade runner. Two small weapon turrets, one strip miner, small (1000m3) ore bay, +2 warp stability. Strong shields & shield resists, but weak armor & armor resists; meaning it (probably) won't die to the first enemy shot (Rat or Player) but had better bug out fast (and actually can). Tiny drone bay (10m3 + 10 bandwidth) Skill bonuses lead to increased warp stability & web resistance. Cost: Cheap.

Skiff: The slow but steady miner. Two small weapon turrets, one strip miner, large (6000m3) ore bay. Average shields & armor. Small drone bay (25m3 + 25 bandwidth). Skill bonuses increase ore bay capacity. Cost: Low.

Procurer: The template. Two medium weapon turrets, two strip miners, average (4000m3) ore bay, average shields but good armor, decent drone bay (50m3 + 50 bandwidth). Your all-around average general-purpose mining ship. Skill bonuses split between yield & ore capacity (though less bonus for each). Cost: Average.

Retriever: The rock remover. Two medium weapon turrets, four strip miners, average (4000mm3) ore bay, average shields & armor, decent drone bay (75m3 + 50 bandwidth). Doesn't hold any more ore than the Procurer, but can mine twice as fast. Best suited for jetcanning with an Orca in command. Excellent fleet miner, but not so hot solo. Skill bonuses increase mining speed. Cost: Above Average.

Covetor: The hisec soloist. Two medium weapon turrets, two strip miners, massive (10,000m3+) ore bay, good shields & armor to survive rats and small gank attacks. Good sized drone bay (100m3 with 50 bandwidth). Mines at the same speed as a Procures (and slower than a Retriever) but can hold massive amounts of ore. Skill bonuses increase ore capacity. Same philosophy as the Skiff, but on a larger scale. Cost: High.

Mackinaw: The exotic specialist. Four medium weapon turrets, two strip miners, good sized (8,000m3) ore bay, good shield & armor, good sized drone bay (125m3 with 75m3 bandwidth). Skill bonuses reduce mining crystal decay and reduce negative gas cloud effects. While it's not designed for nullsec combat (obviously), with a proper escort this ship is designed for all your specialized needs, such ice, gas, or expensive rocks. Cost: High.

Hulk: Finally lives up to it's name. Four medium weapon turrets, four strip miner slots, obnoxious (16,000m3) ore bay, excellent shield & armor, fat drone bay (125m3 with 125 bandwidth). Skill bonuses increase shield & armor hitpoints and resistances. Yes, it has everything, and at 250,000,000ISK, it damn well better. Cost: <--- Look left.

Additional Ships (T2 variants of the above that currently lack them):

T2 Ore Frigate: You know what would make this thing even better? A covert ops cloak, that's what. Cost: High.

T2 Retriever: Only two strip miners, but is packed down with the heaviest armor & shields. Skills now add to armor & shield HP and resists instead of mining speed (like a Hulk). Effectively gank-proof, provided you stay in hisec. Cost: Very High.

I don't think you can insist that the Hulk's current market price is a good reason to increase its effectiveness as a miner compared to cheaper ships. A combat vessel's bang per buck depends on the cost of its mats, which is fluid, and its tank / gank / utility, which is pretty much fixed aside from balance tweaks. The only variable is the cost it takes to replace one. The bang per buck ratio of all combat vessels tends to go up and down in tandem.

For miners though, the bang is tied to the market as well as buck. And for T2 barges, they're tied to two entirely different markets. Bang depends on ore prices, buck depends on moon goo. You could take today's relative ore and goo prices and decide, "OK, the Hulk costs %XXX of a Covetor, so it had better provide %XXX +/- a fudge factor of %YYY of a Covetor's ISK / hour." And in a month, three months, a year, whatever, that equation will have changed.

The fact that today a Hulk only earns a few percentage points more than a Covetor yet costs ten times as much to build has little to do with how the stats and bill of materials for each ship were initially set, and a lot more with the commodities markets. If you just went ahead and made the Hulk 10x better than a Covetor, ore prices would plummet. Demand for Hulk mats would rocket. The Hulk would be 10x better and 100x more expensive than a Covetor, but the ISK / hour difference might be exactly the same as today, perhaps even worse.

yeah you can pick tank, or yield. unlike now where you just pick a hulk because it has both.

currently the hulk has the best of all 3 regardless, really.

aye i'm leaning towards a skiff since most of my mining is solo as well, even in 0.0. the amount of time i spend in my drake dealing with belt rats is infuriating. be nice to be able to just ignore them without having to splash out on faction mods.

surely it can't be worth the time to do that? there's only a 500k isk difference per jetcan (just under 10% of the value of the entire can) between low sec and high sec ores, and there's only 2 nullsec ores (one if you exclude mercoxit) that's worth more than the highest value low sec ore.

surely you'd be better off just setting up in a high sec system mining in a hulk? i don't know any thing about wormholes but surely getting in, gettting out, etc isn't as quick as warping between belt and station.

While the case you've made against increasing the effectiveness of what constitues a current "end game" ship is certainly true, the cost factor (material cost, mind - I'm aware that ISK cost is subject to all the usual fluctuations and manipulations that come with a free market, and that's a good thing) remains a consideration during this change, at least between hulls that are currently of the same tier. Since we currently have no idea how balancing between the tiers will go, perhaps a better comparison would be between say, a Retriever and a Covetor. Which was the point originally being made - Or my point at least.

Currently in terms of material cost, a Covetor requires roughly 3-4 times the amount of minerals that a Retriever would use. In our current scenario such an absolute difference in "buck", so to speak, makes sense because the Covetor is undoubtedly better at everything (Yield, Cargohold, Tank)

Consider the effectiveness of each ship to be measured on a scale that considers the 3 axises of yield, cargohold, and tank. Just for the sake of argument, consider that all 3 factors are considered equal in determining the "effectiveness" of a mining ship. With the change, the attempt will be made to make all 3 ships of a tier more or less equally effective at mining, just superior in one particular axis. You'll get 3 ships that are balanced as far as their "effectiveness" goes, but grossly imbalanced in how much material it takes to produce each one. That introduces a fourth factor that's not taken into consideration - The amount of risk taken when putting each hull into space.

Now, what if the factors under consideration are not perfectly equals? Perhaps as a "serious" miner mining in a fleet, yield should be the foremost consideration regardless of the superiority of the other ships in the other areas (since you'll have Orca/Hauler support), and that justifies the higher cost on the highest yielding ships. In my experience / opinion however, most miners especially in high sec especially are rarely part of any dedicated mining fleet, and work alone, very likely while being semi - AFK (Hence the whole big debate on AFK mining). Even while fleet mining there's probably something to be said for not having to drag and drop your ore into the Orca's hold/jetcan every 3-6 minutes. Convenience is likely as big a factor as yield - "I mine because I can earn ISK while doing something else" - If not exactly equal, it's not far behind - Consider how many people max cargohold their Hulks right now. So you'd be getting a Retriever versus a Covetor which only have slight discrepancies for "bang", while having 3-4 times' difference in "buck". While it's hard to achieve perfect balance as far as effectiveness between ships go, it's much more reasonable to expect differences in material costs of each ship that aren't quite as glaring.

For instance, you could argue that speed and versatility are the main factors that define "effectiveness" for a combat frigate, but that's an argument for buffing the effectiveness of other T1 frigates in other areas to compensate, not one for justifying an absolute material cost disadvantage for the Rifter - Since there are many possible scenarios where speed and versatility in a frigate could become secondary factors despite them being the "general" considerations in flying one. The frigate analogy's possibly flawed since I'm not terribly experienced with them, but hope it gets the point across.

Not advocating a decrease in the material costs for Covetors/Hulks (Risk of meaningful losses is a good part of the game), but an increase in the material costs for the lower hulls of the same tier to put them at a similar "risk" level with their highest yielding cousins - From ganks, Incursion rats, or whatnot. The current prices for a Retriever put it squarely in the "So easily replaceable I can afford to put them out during Hulkageddon" category. They're about to become equivalents with regards to overall effectiveness at mining, it would be fair to expect that they're also roughly similar with regards to hull cost, at least one that isn't as huge as 3-4 times difference.

Its not so much looking for a secure place to mine as it is needing the minerals inside the wormhole to build your own materials and such (especially if you're in deep: C3/null static or deeper). That far in, you're building your own ammo, drones, ships, etc. Also, if you want to build a cap, the sheer amount of trit/pye required renders moving it into the hole virtually (though not entirely) impossible. At best, moving that much trit in is a massive inconvience on your part, especially if you have the personnel to do an orca/rorq supported operation.

That, and sometimes you just wanna mine a grav site, you know? :D

The point of the ship rebalance is to remove tiers. There is no top hull. They are different hulls with different purposes.

Regardless, I don't know how they do things in mining land, but you do realize that you get bonuses for training ship skills beyond the prerequisites for the hull right? It's not like some noob with Exhumers I is going to be just as good as a veteran with Exhumers V regardless of what hull you choose fly.