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Paving the way to the next nerf: hulks

Author
Haffsol
#1 - 2012-06-14 20:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

Ok I know some hulls will not only get bonuses, but some HUGE bonuses (see retriever and procurer). But what about the hulk? We spent months, many months, to be able to get that few % more yeld and now you boost hulls like the procurer and the retriever which no one never cared about?

Did you CCP thought about afk miners aka bot users? It looks like the perfect revamp for them, while not exactly for the serious miners aka hulk pilots and those mining in fleet. Actually when I read stuff like

Quote:
Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.


I doubt up there anyone is considering now a covetor can fit a 2nd mlu (with the cpu implant) so it already received quite a huge bonus recently, which is another way to say hulk has been nerfed since it still cost 10 times more than a covetor and cannot mine not even 2 times more than it.

So, before I start writing nonsense (prolly I'm too late already) I'd like to hear your thoughts
Jin Tall
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-06-14 20:53:12 UTC
You used the word nerf, when you should have used the word buff.
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#3 - 2012-06-14 20:54:37 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

Ok I know some hulls will not only get bonuses, but some HUGE bonuses (see retriever and procurer). But what about the hulk? We spent months, many months, to be able to get that few % more yeld and now you boost hulls like the procurer and the retriever which no one never cared about?

Did you CCP thought about afk miners aka bot users? It looks like the perfect revamp for them, while not exactly for the serious miners aka hulk pilots and those mining in fleet. Actually when I read stuff like

Quote:
Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.


I doubt up there anyone is considering now a covetor can fit a 2nd mlu (with the cpu implant) so it already received quite a huge bonus recently, which is another way to say hulk has been nerfed since it still cost 10 times more than a covetor and cannot mine not even 2 times more than it.

So, before I start writing nonsense (prolly I'm too late already) I'd like to hear your thoughts


Seriously?

If anything this is further proof you shouldnt cater to carebears. There is just no pleasing you people.
Haffsol
#4 - 2012-06-14 21:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
yeah buffin the procurer and giving the retriever 27500 m3 of ore bay + a nearly bs tank will make everybody happy LoL

Unfortunately serious miners fly in hulks and they will get no bonuses but an 8k-ish ore bay (cool 1 more cycle afk for me). All the highsec gankers will have to gank hulks (and covetors eventually) so....... where is the buff please? Spending 2 weeks to fly a retriever Vs spending 3 months to mine decently in a hulk (not to mention orca boosting) with no benefit but an 8k-ish ore hold? Everything done under the the golden rule that "an hulk mine too much"

sure, that's a buff for bot users and afk miners.

edit: anyway you're right, I modified the title, "only" hulks will get nerf'd, noob mining barges will be shiny ;)
Threshner
#5 - 2012-06-14 21:58:18 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
yeah buffin the procurer and giving the retriever 27500 m3 of ore bay + a nearly bs tank will make everybody happy LoL

Unfortunately serious miners fly in hulks and they will get no bonuses but an 8k-ish ore bay (cool 1 more cycle afk for me). All the highsec gankers will have to gank hulks (and covetors eventually) so....... where is the buff please? Spending 2 weeks to fly a retriever Vs spending 3 months to mine decently in a hulk (not to mention orca boosting) with no benefit but an 8k-ish ore hold? Everything done under the the golden rule that "an hulk mine too much"

sure, that's a buff for bot users and afk miners.

edit: anyway you're right, I modified the title, "only" hulks will get nerf'd, noob mining barges will be shiny ;)



Where are you getting that the retriever will have 27500 m3? If that is the case i will be asking while working on schoolwork at school in a ship only costing 8 million for sure
Haffsol
#6 - 2012-06-14 22:03:06 UTC
Quote:
Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge.

+
Quote:
Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP.

=
retriever gets + 27500 m3 ore bay (well they could be _only_ 20k finally) + uhm.... 20-30k ehp?
Haffsol
#7 - 2012-06-14 22:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
actually, in my delirating mind, I was thinking about modifying the title once again into "paving the way to the new nerf: mining" LoL

it looks like having those monster noob barges will make every f***g one go mine, afk mine of course, whenever they'll be at pc but not able to "play eve", just take some ore and bring it home. Probably it's the best way CCP figured out to fight permanent inflation of ores and minerals that we've been facing recently. Inflation is given by higher demand over supply, so if you increase the supply heavily, prices go "under control".

Yeah I know, I'm delirating. And selling my stocks before trit goes back to 3.30
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-06-14 22:41:28 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

Ok I know some hulls will not only get bonuses, but some HUGE bonuses (see retriever and procurer). But what about the hulk? We spent months, many months, to be able to get that few % more yeld and now you boost hulls like the procurer and the retriever which no one never cared about?

Did you CCP thought about afk miners aka bot users? It looks like the perfect revamp for them, while not exactly for the serious miners aka hulk pilots and those mining in fleet. Actually when I read stuff like

Quote:
Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.


I doubt up there anyone is considering now a covetor can fit a 2nd mlu (with the cpu implant) so it already received quite a huge bonus recently, which is another way to say hulk has been nerfed since it still cost 10 times more than a covetor and cannot mine not even 2 times more than it.


That's like saying your co-worker getting a raise is the same as you getting less pay.

They're trying to make it so that other mining ships have a reason for existence other than "I'm still training for a Hulk". Why stop at a Covetor when a Hulk only needs another ONE day of training?

These threads that basically say "I worked hard for what I got and they don't, it's not fair!" are getting tiresome. The game isn't going to stay the same, some of the changes you will like, others not so much. I look forward to seeing how this will change things, it sounds interesting.
Dave stark
#9 - 2012-06-14 22:49:06 UTC
i can't help but laugh at the baseless crying.

people will still be flying hulks in null for the yield, or procurers in highsec for the anti-gank, nobody in their right mind will mine in a mackinaw because a huge ore bay is useless. it's going to be quicker to mine 2-3 cans in a high yield ship and haul them all at once.

the only reason to use a mackinaw is if you don't own/can't fly a mammoth or itty V
Haffsol
#10 - 2012-06-14 23:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
Believe me I'm not against the fact the game has to change, the problem is that changes doesn't go in any precise direction other than unbalancing previous mechanics badly. A lot of things have been requested by "serious miners" to change mining, none of them was similar to: "make the retriever a mining bs with the cargobay of a mammoth" LOL

And about that:
Quote:
These threads that basically say "I worked hard for what I got and they don't, it's not fair!" are getting tiresome.

sorry but it's tiresome to train 3 months to fly a sucking-roids-thing that cost half a plex (more than that actually) and that for this sole reason is the most wanted target everywhere (hs, low, null, for those flying a hulk down there). Oh, they have a nice yeld indeed, still nothing like "hey I'm making a plex in 4 hrs" like people have been doing with incursions for 1 year. And you need orca support to make them _really useful_
Ah yes, and gankers are those "brave guys" flying 2 catalyst and feeling like super gangsta for that. Cool.

Quote:
i can't help but laugh at the baseless crying.

who's crying? I'm just asking where these changes are going.

Quote:
people will still be flying hulks in null for the yield

hu? really? I never saw one. Maybe because I'm not in a huge alliance with sov on 100 systems lol

Quote:
procurers in highsec for the anti-gank

sorry? WUT??? procurer? I knew it existed but I don't even know why I knew it. Never ever saw one anywhere.

Quote:
the only reason to use a mackinaw is....

afk mining. Possibly in null where you have sov. Check killmails in highsec ice-mining systems and see how many a day are blown up. I'll tell you: A LOT! Why? Because 1 single catalyst can do the job, they have 6k ehp afterall, and cost 170 millions. LOL

anyway..... I'll stop spamming this thread, guess I made my point here

o7
Dave stark
#11 - 2012-06-14 23:10:16 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
wall of text


thread about upcoming changes, replies with points based on current ship states. try again.
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#12 - 2012-06-14 23:14:22 UTC
Op has a valid point while not put across well still valid none the less. reading the changes i thought cool nice to see these buffs, then i read about what the hulk is getting and its next to nothing. The buffs coming in are ones to help new people starting out get into mining better and not get ganked as much, While its nice that the reti is getting a good tank, bigger hold and better yield this changes do next to nothing for those of us that are allready in hulks and looking for a buff or a change, the extra ore hold is a bit nice but not exactlly what i was hoping for.

TLDR

new changes only effect new miners and poor miners. Possible buff to bots???
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-14 23:21:26 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
Believe me I'm not against the fact the game has to change, the problem is that changes doesn't go in any precise direction other than unbalancing previous mechanics badly. A lot of things have been requested by "serious miners" to change mining, none of them was similar to: "make the retriever a mining bs with the cargobay of a mammoth" LOL.

I think it does go in a precise direction..."make other mining ships worth flying". These give a reason to fly something other than a Hulk.
Quote:
Quote:
These threads that basically say "I worked hard for what I got and they don't, it's not fair!" are getting tiresome.

sorry but it's tiresome to train 3 months to fly a sucking-roids-thing that cost half a plex (more than that actually)

It doesn't take 3 months to go from Procurere to Hulk. You didn't train for a Hulk for 3 months. You trained for other mining ships for a total of 3 months. And then how much longer to get into the Hulk? A day.

Quote:
iprocurers in highsec for the anti-gank

Quote:
sorry? WUT??? procurer? I knew it existed but I don't even know why I knew it. Never ever saw one anywhere.

And THAT is why this is a good change. Now there is a reason to fly the Covetor besides not losing so much in a gank.
I am FacelessAlt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-06-14 23:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: I am FacelessAlt
Yes these changes are a Nerf to Hulks, the co-worker analogy is false as other miners are not co-workers they are competition... remember that this game is not just ship based PvP.

These changes mean that new players get an increased yield with a mahoosive tank and hold making them comparable with the top end mining vessel. An ore hold equal to the cargo hold of a Hulk yay... high end miners use an orca anyway. No anti gank the super expensive ship here. Seems the balancers are on the same side as the muppet gankers (less stupid now the goons have extended the bounty but nonetheless) the Hulk is meant to be a hardcore highend vessel with skill requirements to match now a couple of weeks training gets you similar results.

I understand the need to make each ship have its place but I can't help but feel like us Hulk miners have just got the raw end of a shiny deal.
Dave stark
#15 - 2012-06-14 23:29:59 UTC
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
I understand the need to make each ship have its place but I can't help but feel like us Hulk miners have just got the raw end of a shiny deal.


how so, we've still got the highest yield mining ship in the game.
I am FacelessAlt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-06-14 23:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: I am FacelessAlt
Dave stark wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
I understand the need to make each ship have its place but I can't help but feel like us Hulk miners have just got the raw end of a shiny deal.


how so, we've still got the highest yield mining ship in the game.



Our competition just got quite a major boost, more miners sitting afk with large holds means more sellers on the market. These non-pro additional miners will care less about selling for a proper market value and more for quick sells so they will be undercutting us. High yield means nothing if what we sell is dropping in price due to additional supply and more people after a quick buck.

We still sit there in glass rock suckers with a boost to our hold size that if you are mining with an orca you dont use anyway.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-06-15 00:03:46 UTC
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
I understand the need to make each ship have its place but I can't help but feel like us Hulk miners have just got the raw end of a shiny deal.


how so, we've still got the highest yield mining ship in the game.



Our competition just got quite a major boost, more miners sitting afk with large holds means more sellers on the market. These non-pro additional miners will care less about selling for a proper market value and more for quick sells so they will be undercutting us. High yield means nothing if what we sell is dropping in price due to additional supply and more people after a quick buck.

We still sit there in glass rock suckers with a boost to our hold size that if you are mining with an orca you dont use anyway.


Except that now some Hulk pilots who are getting tired of sitting in a paper ship with a giant target painted on it will move to lower yields and more safety, or lower yields but less jet-canning. Besides, Hulks don't get the bigger hold, Retrievers and Mackinaws get the bigger hold.

They're giving you incentives to not fly your Hulk, or if you are training up, it gives you a viable place to stop training if you want to go in another direction. This gives the game more options, which is good for the game. Only the self-entitled would think this is a bad thing.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#18 - 2012-06-15 00:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Jin Tall wrote:
You used the word nerf, when you should have used the word buff.


No he's right, they may end up lowering the hulk and mack maximum yield while raising the others a little to balance the ships.. this would end up being a nerf if that is the case. ..especially if they remove specific roles... we'll see . nothing is written in stone according to the blog.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

I am FacelessAlt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-06-15 00:20:25 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
I understand the need to make each ship have its place but I can't help but feel like us Hulk miners have just got the raw end of a shiny deal.


how so, we've still got the highest yield mining ship in the game.



Our competition just got quite a major boost, more miners sitting afk with large holds means more sellers on the market. These non-pro additional miners will care less about selling for a proper market value and more for quick sells so they will be undercutting us. High yield means nothing if what we sell is dropping in price due to additional supply and more people after a quick buck.

We still sit there in glass rock suckers with a boost to our hold size that if you are mining with an orca you dont use anyway.


Except that now some Hulk pilots who are getting tired of sitting in a paper ship with a giant target painted on it will move to lower yields and more safety, or lower yields but less jet-canning. Besides, Hulks don't get the bigger hold, Retrievers and Mackinaws get the bigger hold.

They're giving you incentives to not fly your Hulk, or if you are training up, it gives you a viable place to stop training if you want to go in another direction. This gives the game more options, which is good for the game. Only the self-entitled would think this is a bad thing.


Ok you must be stupid but I'll oblige you.

I have already stated that the hold increase for hulks is laughable as it is pointless the real increases were for lower skill ships.

Why should I have incentives to not fly the top of the line ship that I have spent time training for? that argument is ridiculous, us miners are already bottom of the isk foodchain and you think it's perfectly alright to step even further down???

No one was stopping people training at retrievers before except now if they do they still end up with better yield and more afk ability.

People that think my way are not self entitled we are entitled by the time we have spent training. If anything the hulk should be boosted but the skill requirements should also be increased. It should not be possible to reach the top of the mining tree in a couple of months.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-06-15 00:44:05 UTC
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
I understand the need to make each ship have its place but I can't help but feel like us Hulk miners have just got the raw end of a shiny deal.


how so, we've still got the highest yield mining ship in the game.



Our competition just got quite a major boost, more miners sitting afk with large holds means more sellers on the market. These non-pro additional miners will care less about selling for a proper market value and more for quick sells so they will be undercutting us. High yield means nothing if what we sell is dropping in price due to additional supply and more people after a quick buck.

We still sit there in glass rock suckers with a boost to our hold size that if you are mining with an orca you dont use anyway.


Except that now some Hulk pilots who are getting tired of sitting in a paper ship with a giant target painted on it will move to lower yields and more safety, or lower yields but less jet-canning. Besides, Hulks don't get the bigger hold, Retrievers and Mackinaws get the bigger hold.

They're giving you incentives to not fly your Hulk, or if you are training up, it gives you a viable place to stop training if you want to go in another direction. This gives the game more options, which is good for the game. Only the self-entitled would think this is a bad thing.


Ok you must be stupid but I'll oblige you.

I have already stated that the hold increase for hulks is laughable as it is pointless the real increases were for lower skill ships.

Why should I have incentives to not fly the top of the line ship that I have spent time training for? that argument is ridiculous, us miners are already bottom of the isk foodchain and you think it's perfectly alright to step even further down???

No one was stopping people training at retrievers before except now if they do they still end up with better yield and more afk ability.

People that think my way are not self entitled we are entitled by the time we have spent training. If anything the hulk should be boosted but the skill requirements should also be increased. It should not be possible to reach the top of the mining tree in a couple of months.


Your hold increase is NOT increasing. Me thinks maybe you didn't read.

They have made it clear in the blog that they don't want people to think that the Hulk is the only viable option for mining, so they are offering (for T1/T2): 1. better EHP for Procurer/Skiff, 2. bigger holds for Retriever/Mackinaw, and 3. best yields are for Covetor/Hulk. I like this idea....I like it a lot.


Sorry that training a few hours more past Mining Barge V was so difficult for you.
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