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Paving the way to the next nerf: hulks
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Breezly Brewin
Vril Metaphysics Society
#41 - 2012-06-16 12:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Breezly Brewin
Sounds to me that you're mad that you invested your time into something that has become either obsolete and/or new players won't have to endure the same ordeal.

Maybe you shouldn't play MMOs.

This change is good we will have different ships for different situations.

The Hulk will still be the highest yield ship. We still have to wait and see what the actual difference is between it and the second highest max yield. Seeing as how this change hasn't been implemented we really have no idea what the actual yield differences will be at this point. We can't use current numbers in regards to the change, I'm hoping they will tweak the +mining% numbers and ship bonuses a bit as well. (and hopefully make us not regret having trained exhumers V)
Haffsol
#42 - 2012-06-16 12:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
Quote:
Sounds to me that you're mad that you invested your time into something that has become either obsolete and/or new players won't have to endure the same ordeal.

lol
yes I invested that time, still I can fly a covetor so my business is not broken by these "new features" so it's nothing making me so mad. Besides, I'm not mining that much, but yeah I'd like to think that the more effort you invest on something the more the rewards. I must be wrong somewhere though since I see noobs and lamers/griefers are much more assisted than people trying to make some serious business out of the game mechanics. No offence ment on those brave capsuleers working in null where they have sov or ganking carebears in highsec as if it was the ultimate combat experience in the game.

Quote:
Maybe you shouldn't play MMOs.

hey this is a real PRO advice ;)

That said, I'm of course not jumping to any particualr conclusion about the future of mining or hulks piloting, just wondering about those few things announced in the devblog, which I consider a bit awkward.

Ah btw, the ore frigs are cool, yes awesome, if you want me to tell you. I'm just sorry I "probably" won't need them but..... ok.
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#43 - 2012-06-16 16:30:37 UTC
Haffsol wrote:

so, personally I wouldn't take 2-3 more pages of discussion to find an agreement on the fact that "buffing all the other barges and leaving hulk almost unchanged" is exactly and literally the definition of "nerfing hulks".

Can you wise ones accept it?


No, because it is an incorrect assumption to make. Redefining the roles of the other barges and exhumers while leaving the Hulk it's current role of highest yield exhumer is not a nerf. It is giving purpose to the other ships. It is giving the players more tools to work with, not less.
Din Chao
#44 - 2012-06-16 17:40:11 UTC
I've never ganked before, but OP makes me want to burn all the Hulks, including my own...
Haffsol
#45 - 2012-06-16 18:08:30 UTC
Quote:
Redefining the roles of the other barges.....

ok, I see why start from different stands but we arrive to the same conclusions...... almost. The redefinition of roles should be a really good change and improvement for everyone. The problem is: will it happen given the said changes?
I won't say no, but I think it will happen to a very small percentage of those who will go mining on their new barges. Afterall, if I can quote someone famous, "it's all about the veld" so, as I think I've said before, the biggest changes imo will be that afk miners (oh no, I didn't say bot-users, they don't exist but in my paranoid mind) will increase of some 100% factor and those using the new roles given to the revamped barge will increase of..... uhm.... 5%? Translation: the field where the hulks are confined (highsec) will have more competitors, and the new fields still uncovered by mining game mechanics will be still largely uncovered (lowsec and nullsec mining) but anyway, I don't want to make it too dramatic, and about these "new roles" there are too many factors that could make things go in the meant direction, so hopefully CCP will consider this as their main goal. Unfortunately, they only said
Quote:
first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.

which is not exactly a redefinition of roles afterall. But who knows
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-06-16 18:21:51 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
Quote:
Redefining the roles of the other barges.....

ok, I see why start from different stands but we arrive to the same conclusions...... almost. The redefinition of roles should be a really good change and improvement for everyone. The problem is: will it happen given the said changes?
I won't say no, but I think it will happen to a very small percentage of those who will go mining on their new barges. Afterall, if I can quote someone famous, "it's all about the veld" so, as I think I've said before, the biggest changes imo will be that afk miners (oh no, I didn't say bot-users, they don't exist but in my paranoid mind) will increase of some 100% factor and those using the new roles given to the revamped barge will increase of..... uhm.... 5%? Translation: the field where the hulks are confined (highsec) will have more competitors, and the new fields still uncovered by mining game mechanics will be still largely uncovered (lowsec and nullsec mining) but anyway, I don't want to make it too dramatic, and about these "new roles" there are too many factors that could make things go in the meant direction, so hopefully CCP will consider this as their main goal. Unfortunately, they only said
Quote:
first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.

which is not exactly a redefinition of roles afterall. But who knows


Since when are hulks confined to high sec? I regularly see quite a few in null, usually mining in greater safety than they would in high!
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-06-16 19:39:22 UTC

Haffsol wrote:
Quote:
Redefining the roles of the other barges.....

ok, I see why start from different stands but we arrive to the same conclusions...... almost. The redefinition of roles should be a really good change and improvement for everyone. The problem is: will it happen given the said changes?
I won't say no, but I think it will happen to a very small percentage of those who will go mining on their new barges. Afterall, if I can quote someone famous, "it's all about the veld" so, as I think I've said before, the biggest changes imo will be that afk miners (oh no, I didn't say bot-users, they don't exist but in my paranoid mind) will increase of some 100% factor and those using the new roles given to the revamped barge will increase of..... uhm.... 5%? Translation: the field where the hulks are confined (highsec)
I think you are a bit confused, here. Hulks don't belong in high sec space, it is far too dangerous. High sec is where they are hunted.
Quote:
will have more competitors, and the new fields still uncovered by mining game mechanics will be still largely uncovered (lowsec and nullsec mining) but anyway, I don't want to make it too dramatic, and about these "new roles" there are too many factors that could make things go in the meant direction, so hopefully CCP will consider this as their main goal. Unfortunately, they only said
Quote:
first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.

which is not exactly a redefinition of roles afterall. But who knows


Let me see if I can sum up how you think it should be done: Hulks take the longest to train, we should get the best yield, best tank and best cargohold. If any other ship gets a buff to any of those three, the Hulk should be buffed so it is still the best in all three.

Does that about sum up how you think? Does that not smack of 'self-entitlement'?

Oh, and as for your definition...
Quote:
In video gaming a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element.


The effectiveness of the Hulk hasn't gone down, so I assume you're talking about desirability. I suppose I agree that this makes the Hulk less desirable, but only so far as now there are better choices for other roles. If you're flying solo in high sec space, then your Hulk SHOULD be less desirable, that isn't what it's meant for. You're trying to force it there, but the answer, obviously, is "no. we don't want to go that way."

And there are other equally credible definitions for 'nerf' besides your wikipedia one. Urban dictionary: "To make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game."

Lastly, let me remind you that you just got a buff by your definition. Gun mining is not as effective any more and drone regions don't drop tons of mineral goodies, either.


And quit saying you spent months to train for the Hulk. You didn't. Any training for the Hulk started with Exhumers 1, since you already had access to a T1 ship capable of the same thing the Hulk has, i.e. mining lots of ore. Your talk of "I spent months training for the Hulk" implies that you spent months longer to train for it than Covetor pilots.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-06-16 19:55:47 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
yeah buffin the procurer and giving the retriever 27500 m3 of ore bay + a nearly bs tank will make everybody happy LoL

Unfortunately serious miners fly in hulks and they will get no bonuses but an 8k-ish ore bay (cool 1 more cycle afk for me). All the highsec gankers will have to gank hulks (and covetors eventually) so....... where is the buff please? Spending 2 weeks to fly a retriever Vs spending 3 months to mine decently in a hulk (not to mention orca boosting) with no benefit but an 8k-ish ore hold? Everything done under the the golden rule that "an hulk mine too much"

sure, that's a buff for bot users and afk miners.

edit: anyway you're right, I modified the title, "only" hulks will get nerf'd, noob mining barges will be shiny ;)



Procuror gets the BS tank, retriever gets the jet can ore hold. They don't get both. Try reading the whole blog before you whine.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#49 - 2012-06-16 20:16:08 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Op has a valid point while not put across well still valid none the less. reading the changes i thought cool nice to see these buffs, then i read about what the hulk is getting and its next to nothing. The buffs coming in are ones to help new people starting out get into mining better and not get ganked as much, While its nice that the reti is getting a good tank, bigger hold and better yield this changes do next to nothing for those of us that are allready in hulks and looking for a buff or a change, the extra ore hold is a bit nice but not exactlly what i was hoping for.

TLDR

new changes only effect new miners and poor miners. Possible buff to bots???


The changes are here to give miners an interesting choice.
Do I go for the best yield at the expense of all else? If y => Hulk/Covetor
Do I go for the best AFK ability at the cost of less yield? If y => Mackinaw/Retriever
Do I go for the best Tank, so I'm a poor target for the ebils? If y => Skiff/Procurer

The yields will all be somewhat similar so that it's an actual interesting choice, rather than the current:
Ore? => Hulk
Poor? => Covetor
Ice? => Mackinaw
Mercx? => Skiff
Newbie? => Retriever
Building a Skiff? => Procurer

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Haffsol
#50 - 2012-06-16 22:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
since I thought I made my point after my first 2-3 posts, lemme complete this spamming with a nice wall of text full of my personal nonsense on the "nerf or buff" philosophical debate we felt in

Quote:
And there are other equally credible definitions for 'nerf' besides your wikipedia one. Urban dictionary: "To make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game."

Lastly, let me remind you that you just got a buff by your definition. Gun mining is not as effective any more and drone regions don't drop tons of mineral goodies, either.


first: I know nothing, not a single thing about how gun mining was working, meaning how it was profitable, how long did it take to work a plex out of it, the risk involved, the efforts, if you could make it solo or you needed backup or support of any kind and so on. Anyway I've heard it was very profitable, and we're for sure talking about pve, so nothing you need a Phd to deal with. But I never heard anyone talking of how many millions-worth-ships they lost doing it. For sure there was no super-cool festival to melt gun-miners down because they were stupid carebears LoL

second: incursions. Again, I admit I never ran one, but I have friends out there who have been living of incursions for 1 year and more. There was some effort to put in the matter, but someone was able to work out a plex in a single day (and I don't mean 24 hrs!!) eventually 2. Yeah, someone lost his ship, but I never heard of a negative balance at the end of the day. And yes, that's still pve afterall. Moreover: look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZD6-vGQms At a certain point there is a nice graph about how many isk are (actually were) introduced in the game by incursions. I don't think I have to add my personal opinion on that. What I can still say on incursions is that all those I know who have been living out of it for all that time agree completely and without any problem that it was a bit too much. At least they are sincere ahaha

Since I cannot talk too much about things I never experienced personally, can you please try to convince me that these 2 features hadn't to be nerfed _in order to balance the game_? That's why I'm not even against "nerfing as a balancing-game mechanic".

What I know is that dull miners loose their ships pretty much daily, their ships cost a lot, have close to no tank (if no tank at all), can't elaborate any particular defensive strategy and their "so unbelievable yeld" doesn't allow them to work out a plex in 1 or 2 days or at least if it is even possible in nullsec (again, I have no idea if it is but I strongly doubt) a lot of efforts is needed, like fleet, scouts, time, co-operation, exploration, standings (in case of L4's agents) and ROLES! And risk.
Then, before inferno, the hulk was still quite different than a covetor, since you couldn't fit a 2nd MLU on it. This also answers your questioning about "I didn't train more than 2 days for the hulk but I trained for the covetor longer". Oh boy! I sware I started that training for the hulk, how can I convince you?

In any case, all said so far to say that I don't truly understand how people could see hulks as overpowered in the game. Yes they mine much more than a retriever but you pay that with a never ending training and a pretty high risk involved (and isk). So you're right, I think that if they buff any single ship involved in the mining, they should buff the hulk as well, and not slightly! Too many "holes" in that hull, as everybody knows too well ;)

But, and this is the last thing I'm saying here, I agree that the topic went a bit out of hand, or at least it actually looks like Haffsol Vs the rest of the world LoL

So I agree that for you anything I say must look as a "self-entitlement" speaking or however you call it. Not my intention, still I said what I think and I think I didn't say anything so bizarre. We'll see what happens to this little boring thing called mining after the revamp. In any case, and you'd be surprised to hear it, it's nothing that involves me so much. As I said I'm not even a "serious miner" but it'ok, feel free to make locator agents rich.

byez <3
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-06-16 22:47:56 UTC
Marauders are some of the most skill demanding, expensive, supertanked huge cargo ships out there.
It should get all the same bonuses as the recons and commandships. I spent a lot of time training for one and it gets dead everytime I agress 2-3 brutixes.

Why are my 2 bill ship not safe from these t1 battlecruisers?
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#52 - 2012-06-17 00:18:09 UTC
I read some of this....

My solution, give Hulk the ability to mount 1 warfare link but not have the bonus the Orca gets. Add high slot for this.

Happy?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#53 - 2012-06-17 00:25:25 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
I read some of this....

My solution, give Hulk the ability to mount 1 warfare link but not have the bonus the Orca gets. Add high slot for this.

Happy?


You want a cloaky Hulk with no sacrifice in yield?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Abannan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-06-17 05:34:00 UTC
So you get a buff to your mining ships, making you ungankable by any un-dedicated ganker (see: catalysts taking out hulks without any trouble) and you STILL find something to whine about?

Jesus christ
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-06-17 05:48:01 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
You want a cloaky Hulk with no sacrifice in yield?


"Unprobable" off grid boosting Hulk would be cool.
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#56 - 2012-06-17 07:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jypsie
RubyPorto wrote:
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
I read some of this....

My solution, give Hulk the ability to mount 1 warfare link but not have the bonus the Orca gets. Add high slot for this.

Happy?


You want a cloaky Hulk with no sacrifice in yield?


Can I get a covert cyno that can be lit in high sec that my Orca can jump to?

They simply take waaay too much time to align.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-06-17 07:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Jypsie wrote:
They simply take waaay too much time to align.


That's why you fit 100mn MWD for travelling.

Just remember to disable auto repeat.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#58 - 2012-06-17 13:40:24 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Jypsie wrote:
They simply take waaay too much time to align.


That's why you fit 100mn MWD for travelling.

Just remember to disable auto repeat.


ITT: Jorma Morkkis learns about sarcasm

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Doktor Malinowka
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-06-17 13:45:50 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Jypsie wrote:
They simply take waaay too much time to align.


That's why you fit 100mn MWD for travelling.

Just remember to disable auto repeat.


ITT: Jorma Morkkis learns about sarcasm


actually, I dont think that was sacasm, since its correct what he saidRoll
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#60 - 2012-06-17 13:57:39 UTC
Doktor Malinowka wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Jypsie wrote:
They simply take waaay too much time to align.


That's why you fit 100mn MWD for travelling.

Just remember to disable auto repeat.


ITT: Jorma Morkkis learns about sarcasm


actually, I dont think that was sacasm, since its correct what he saidRoll


The sarcasm was Jypsie's. Jorma selectively quoted Jypsie, reducing the effect if you didn't bother reading Jypsie's post.

Jorma selectively quotes things constantly, so it's usually good to read the post he's quoting to see just how out of context he's taking something.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon